Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

Rockrz · May 22, 2017

That's not the purpose of the parable... Jesus is showing that it's possible to walk away from God, and if one does that they are dead cause they walked away refusing to be in fellowship with the Father any further.

Sure the Father desires for the person to come back but just like in the parable, the Father considers one who refuses fellowship with Him to be... dead.

God defined what death is with Adam in the Garden of Eden and it is... being separated from Him.

God said if Adam ate of that tree he would surely die... and he did.

satan said he would not die, referring to the flesh... and Adam did live for 930 years in the flesh.

So, if one is looking at this from the view point of the flesh... what satan said was true...partially and only temporarily
If one looks at this from the view point of the Spirit, what God says is true,

In the end... all flesh will die and then the judgement... satan conveniently left that part out just like you are conveniently leaving out the part of the parable where the Father mentioned the boy was dead when he was away, out of fellowship with the Father.

Romans 8:5,6
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

reneweddaybyday · May 22, 2017

Rockrz said:

The point that is "conveniently" left out is the fact that both father and son acknowledged the relationship of father / son.

No matter what state the son found himself, he was still the son of the father.

No matter the state of the son, the father acknowledged the relationship. When his son returned, the father did not reject the son.

Rockrz said:

True words. How about continuing on in Romans 8?

Romans 8:

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

When the Spirit of God dwells in the born again one, he/she is child of God and is not in the flesh, but in the Spirit (Rom 8:9).

And further in Rom 8:9 if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. This is speaking of those who are not born again. Those are the ones who are referred to as in the flesh.

Just as in the parable in Luke 15, the son was always the son of the father. Even when the son was joined to a citizen in another country, he was still the son of the father as shown in Luke 15:18.

Grace777x70 · May 22, 2017

reneweddaybyday said:

The funny thing is - there was no real repentance from the son when he was coming back to his father. He wanted to eat and work for his father - that was his real reason for coming back.

He did repent when he let his father put a robe of righteousness on him, a ring of authority in the Father's kingdom. and shoes to signify his son-ship. It was all by grace through faith in what His Father said about him when he returned to him.

This is a picture of salvation by grace through faith in the message of Christ's finished works on the cross and resurrection. We hear - we believe and then we are sealed by the Holy spirit.

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

My personal view of this parable is that it is referring to people of the world as all of us belong to the Lord. The earth and the people belong to Him - the psalmists says.

After this parable - Jesus spoke of the lost sheep and lost coin. They all speak of "original ownership" even thought they were lost.

reneweddaybyday · May 22, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

Right. But when you think about it, if/when we break fellowship, we miss the love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, meekness, faith, temperance we enjoy when we are in fellowship with Father. So, first we turn, then we confess to God our sorrow in having left Him.

Grace777x70 said:

Yes, and we are sealed only once. It's not like we're sealed ... then unsealed ... then sealed ... then unsealed.

The seal marks us out as belonging to God.

Just as my DNA marks me out as being the child of my earthly father and mother. When I was disobedient to my parents, I didn't become the child of another set of parents. I was always their child and they were always my father and mother.

How many eternal lives does one have to be given in order to have eternal life?

Meggido · May 22, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

Bruce,
[SUP]18 [/SUP]I will get up and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight; [SUP]19 [/SUP]I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me as one of your hired men.”’

Did not the son have a repentant heart before the Father put the robe on him?

reneweddaybyday · May 22, 2017

Meggido said:

[SUP]18 [/SUP]I will get up and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight; [SUP]19 [/SUP]I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me as one of your hired men.”’

Did not the son have a repentant heart before the Father put the robe on him?

good point ...

Meggido · May 22, 2017

reneweddaybyday said:

Personally, I do not see this parable as one about salvation , but about a continual state of repentance before Father.

Most of the parables are about ongoing repentance. Repenting is not a one time and you are done event.

Repenting is not salvation either. Believing in the Lord Jesus Christ is.

JIMBO43 · May 22, 2017

Chris1975 said:

[SUP]May the Spirit of God open your eyes to the below, so that if you are in error, you may repent and get onboard with the will of God and preach truth on this matter. Its not about pridefully defending your position. It's about the truth.

Colossians 1v21-23

21 [/SUP]And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled <become believers> [SUP]22 [/SUP]in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— [SUP]23 [/SUP]if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Now what is plain to see is this:
-These were believers above
-They were to be presented holy, blameless and above reproach (no scope for unrepentant sin in a believers life)
-this is possible (IF THEY CONTINUED IN THE FAITH) - grounded, steadfast, not moved.

Other evidences:

Luke 22 v31-32

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And the Lord said,[SUP][c][/SUP] “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. [SUP]32 [/SUP]But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.”

Now what is plain to see is this:
-If it were not possible for faith to fail, as the strong delusionalists claim, then it would not be necessary for Jesus to have had to pray to the Father this prayer above.

1 Timothy 2 v18-20

[SUP]18 [/SUP]This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, [SUP]19 [/SUP]having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, [SUP]20 [/SUP]of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

2 Timothy 2 v16-19
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, [SUP]18 [/SUP]who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ[SUP][c][/SUP] depart from iniquity.”

Now what is plain to see is this:
-its possible to stray concerning the truth
-its possible to once have known the truth but to have strayed therefrom
-faith can be overthrown.
-these people are no longer saved. Because you can only receive salvation through faith.
-sin is still a factor " Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity". Contrary to what the strong delusionalists say.

Jude
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

Now what is plain to see is this:
-contending for the faith - its a prize. It is to be protected, defended, fought for.
-by not contending for this, it can be lost.

2 Timothy 4v7-8

[SUP]7 [/SUP]I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Now what is plain to see is this:
-Paul, writer of most of the New Testament, fought the good fight. Finished the course. And KEPT the faith.
-why would it be necessary for him to write about "kept the faith" if it wasn't possible to have lost faith.

1 John 5v4
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our[SUP][a][/SUP] faith.

Now what is plain to see is this:
-Our faith is what overcomes the world. We are supposed to OVERCOME THE WORLD.
-What is the world? (definition:1 John 2v16 [SUP]16 [/SUP]For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world).

Revelation 2v10b
10(b) Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Now what is plain to see is this:
-Faith is not a once off, momentary decision, applicable for all time.
-Faith, once received, once believed, is to be maintained.
-the corollary is this - if you are NOT faithful until death, or lose your faith, you shall not receive the crown of life.

The word is very clear - its to him who overcomes:
Revelation 2v7b To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life
Revelation 2v11b He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.
Revelation 2v17b To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat.
Revelation 2v26 [SUP]26 [/SUP]And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
Revelation 3v5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life
Revelation 3v12He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more.
Revelation 3v21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne

Now to those who lose the faith. Who once had the faith yet turned their backs on Christ, we have the subject matter of the 'other' thread. Which is clearly visible for all to see below:

Hebrews 6v4-6

[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]5 [/SUP]and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, [SUP]6 [/SUP]if they fall away,[SUP][b][/SUP] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Now what is plain to see is this:
-Let there no no illusions that these were believers, and were once in the faith.
-once they "fall away" (and we can see that this is a very real risk warned about by the NT writers, as well as Jesus) to be renewed again unto repentance.

so we can fall away sure but also we can reclimb..?

Grace777x70 · May 22, 2017

Meggido said:

Good question.

I believe his motivation was this below in bold. It does look like his motivation was so that he could eat and live better.( Perhaps there was a combination of motives too...

)

Luke 15:17-19 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

[SUP]18 [/SUP] I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

[SUP]19 [/SUP] And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

I also noticed that the father ignored what the son was saying. The word "but" shows this in verse 22. When He saw him - he ran for him before even knowing what the son was going to say about anything.

Luke 15:20-22 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

[SUP]21 [/SUP] And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

What is also interesting is that the Greek word for "fell on his neck" is the exact same word used of the Holy Spirit when Paul said that He fell on those in Cornelius's house that heard the message of Christ and believed.

I love how the Holy Spirit falls on us to show us the Father's love and heart towards us.

I also noticed that the father didn't sit the son down and talk about all the evils that he had done - instead he told him and showed him who he really was. His father's son.

reneweddaybyday · May 22, 2017

Megiddo said:

So salvation is ongoing from point of being born again?

And repenting is utilized during the course of one's lifetime if/when we stumble?

Meggido · May 22, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

Thank you, I can see why you would suggest he had a motive. Let me offer something else here.

We both know, that he came to himself and realized that his Fathers hired servants were better than his current position. He thought if I could just go back and be a servant, not even a son, I will be doing better than sitting in the pig pen.

Is this not a picture of condemnation from the enemy?

How many people believe and are taught that their past prohibits them from being a sin-forgiven Son or Daughter of God and the best they can make is a servant. However, this parable perfectly illustrates Romans 7 & 8 and especially Romans 8.1-There is no condemnation in Jesus.

I do not think he had a motive, I think Jesus was showing us there is no condemnation in him and no matter what you were before matters, you come to me and you are a new creation. Stop felling unworthy to be my son or daughter.

Grace777x70 · May 22, 2017

Meggido said:

That is a great point and I agree. Well said brother!

Amen...condemnation guilt and shame are not tools of the kingdom of God and the Lord does not sub-contract them out to the devil to use on us. They are the tools of the religious spirit that uses them to try to force others to conform and try to mimic the life of Christ.

They have a "voice" that says -

Condemnation is the sub-conscious confession that your life is worthy of judgment.

Guilt is the sub-conscious confession that you are not forgiven.

Shame is the sub-conscious confession that the thing you are condemned over is still who you are.

All 3 of these are anti-Christ and anti- the finished work of Christ beliefs.

They are not tools of heaven. The Holy Spirit is NOT called the Spirit of guilt - but He the Comforter is called the Spirit of grace.

Chris1975 · May 22, 2017

You see, the confusion really comes about in terms of when salvation happens. Most scriptures point to the salvation being complete only at the end. However there are a few scriptures which seem to point to salvation having occurred (for example, Jesus said "Your faith has saved you").

You all should look this up as a specific topic. May God bless you with insight.

Meggido · May 22, 2017

reneweddaybyday said:

Repentance is a heart created by the Holy Spirit, which creates an undeniable resolve to turn and change and is always accompanied by the complete renewal of the soul to match the spirit, it is ongoing process of empowering grace.

Many confuse confessing for repentance. We confess when we sin and stumble, repentance is a form of ongoing sanctification.

John 17.3-
[SUP]3 [/SUP]This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
The word know in this verse is a form of intimacy with Father and son.

Jesus' shed blood did not give you eternal life, the shed blood gave you forgiveness of sin and ransomed you from the powers of darkness.
[SUP]
9 [/SUP]that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; [SUP]10 [/SUP]for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

mailmandan · May 22, 2017

Chris1975 said:

The confusion comes about when the 3 tenses of salvation get mixed up. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification). 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification). 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification).

Rockrz · May 22, 2017

Yes, and we are the ones that decide whether we are remaining under His seal... or if we are going to walk away.

I guess some think that if a person walks away from the Lord... the Lord is going to force them to be in a relationship with Him even if they don't want that anymore and want to go live after the world.

When the future gets here we will see that some are told to depart because they are worker of iniquity inspite of their belief that they were right with the Lord cause God had turned them over to a reprobate mind as mention in the first part of the Book of Romans

reneweddaybyday · May 22, 2017

Rockrz said:

I guess some believe God is incapable of finishing that good work which He begins in each and every one of His children once they are born again:

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ

Notice we are instructed to be confident. Not question. Not doubt. Not hope we remain faithful.

Jude 1:24-25 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Who is it that keeps us from falling? God. Our wonderful Heavenly Father.

You want to rely on your own strength in keeping you? Have at it. I will rely on the promises God gives to His sons and daughters. He will complete the good work ... He will keep His sons and daughters from falling.

Rockrz said:

You indicate "some are told to depart because they are worker of iniquity". Please provide the Scripture reference for your statement.

There are several records I could look into but I want to look at the Scripture you are specifically using when you indicate "some are told to depart because they are worker of iniquity".

Thanks.

Rockrz said:

And in Romans 1, where does God state that those who are turned over to a reprobate mind were at any time born again children of God?

Thanks.

RECONCILED · May 22, 2017

This is also what I stand for. We should believe what we read than read what we believe.

Sagart · May 23, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

Jesus is not the one who is lying. He never said to us, “The Holy Spirit will be in you forever”. Instead, he told the truth to the persons with whom He was speaking,

John 14:15. “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
16. “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
17. that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. (NASB, 1995)

To whom was Jesus speaking? He was speaking to His twelve disciples—one of whom was Judas (v. 22). Was Jesus telling the truth to all twelve of his disciples, or was He pretending that Judas was not there? He was telling the truth to all twelve of the disciples. What then—was He lying? No, of course not! He qualified his statement by telling the twelve that if they love (Greek present tense which always stresses the continuousness of the action) Him, they will keep (Greek future tense if understood to be in the indicative mood, or the Greek present tense if understood to be in the imperative mood) His commandments. And to those of the twelve disciples who continue to love him, and continue to keep His commandments, He promised to give the Spirit of truth, that He may be with them forever.

Moreover, John 14:16 does not change the warnings given in The Epistle to the Hebrews. Furthermore, to ignore the lexicography and the grammar used in the Epistle to the Hebrews and in the Gospel According to John is not just unjustifiable carelessness—it is outright dishonesty toward one’s self and toward those to whom one is speaking or writing.

Grace777x70 · May 23, 2017

What are the commandments in the New Covenant?

Jesus commanded a blind man to go to the priest when he was healed. Do we do that today?

Jesus also told a man to "Keep the law of Moses if he wanted eternal life." Is that what we tell people today? These are all "red" letters of Jesus words and commands to people.

No, the truth is if we don't consider all scripture through the finished work of Christ and who is being talked to at the time - we will end up with a theological mess which includes the book written to the Hebrews speaking to the Jews that are believing as well as the Jews not believing in Christ as their one time sacrifice for sins.

The willful sinning is the rejection of Christ's sacrifice for sins in the book of Hebrews and relying on animal temple sacrifices instead. It's plain as day.

John tells us exactly what the commandments are in the New Covenant. Jesus Himself spoke of "believing in Him". In these commandments the whole of Jesus's teachings are fulfilled as we walk in this life completely dependent on the life of Christ in us.

1 John 3:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

A very big factor in looking at scripture is the "lens" you use to view the scripture.

In the Old Covenant "you had to do or else"..If you do this..then I God will do that.." = conditional on the person performing

New Covenant = Jesus has done it for you which empowers you to "do"

Let's take a look at a common scripture with these 2 mindsets.

Jesus said.." If you love Me, you will keep My commandments"

Old Covenant mindset = conditional on the person "doing"..

So they would read it this way.."IF you love Me you will keep My commandments"..in their mind it's saying.."Keep My commandment and you will prove you love Me."

New Covenant mindset = it's a description of who you are in Christ.

They would see this "Jesus' love is in me so I keep His commandments"..it stems out of relationship and it is not conditional but descriptive of the believer.

Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

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