Not By Works

[PeterJens]

Nobody is claiming that Jesus saves us and after that, we should do absolutely nothing in return (out of love and gratitude) for Him. Love and gratitude is my motivation for serving Jesus Christ and not pride and expectation that He will save me based on the merits of my works. Huge difference. We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19).

Guys, using the term nobody is just a put down.
If salvation is a change of heart and direction, and good works are its fruit why do you
dislike saying these two are always linked?

When Christ has bought you, you are not your own. What I know is you all came to
faith many years ago, mainly as kids, and know slavery to legalism. Maybe the truth
is you never really came to Christ, but dabbled on the fringes and your failure has been
because it never dwelt in your soul, and led to continual failure and frustration.

I say this because I have met people who were born christian, though this is impossible.
I also know people who know what christians should do, but their life is dominated by a
whole different agenda.

So if today you stand an empty servant bowing to the King, amen. For in all things we
are always empty, humble, contrite people in need of Christs filling and fellowship, to
fill us up to overflowing to bring grace and favour to this lost world.

Do you desire His will and His ways? Is this your desire, morning, noon and night?
Apart from tearing me to pieces, what is your desire to serve each day?

The more I go on I want to feel the touch of His Spirit on my heart and to know what
more of His glorious riches to share. Do you know in His love there are glorious riches?
Or to know you have helped someone at a fundamental level is such a blessing to our
souls.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Pppphhhhbbbbttttt....

 

[PeterJens]

I think I need to be clearer to deal with this fallacy of theology

Jesus + sinner change = salvation
Jesus + sinner rejection = hell

How can a sinner reject that which he does not know, and can only know if they
get saved. And how can the saved not be able to choose to reject faith later, if
the freely chose it at the beginning. Is this a choice but with no returns, a trap
that is forever sealed. It sounds very unlike God and His challenges

Jonah was called, and he ran away. He was persuaded to obey, but he did not
like it even when judgement did not come and they repented.

Or the prophets, given a task to perform, and warned that breaking the task would
kill them, they still broke it and died.

All the parables, the people choose their response to the King, known is forced.
Yet here we have a faith position with force. So in this concept God is the tyrant who
holds people to the commitments they now disown. But God has never worked like this,
He stays true to His commitments, but accepts the choices of others and the judgement
they pull down on themselves.

Jesus + God given revelation, conviction and repentance + faith = salvation
Sinner + sin = judgement + hell
Jesus + repentance + rebellion = judgement + hell

The idea the King of love binds people to himself is how the enemy runs his kingdom,
by domination and exploitation. So ironically to deceive people who claim knowledge
of the King and deny its core principles makes him laugh and mock.

 

[dcontroversal]

This phrase fails on a lot of levels.
Salvation is of an individual, so passing from death to life relies on something changing in the
sinner to make this possible.

However you define this change or its source, if it is not present the person is not saved.
Now Christ never changes, so the change must occur in the sinner.

If you claim the sinner is a passive participant then Christ chooses people and changes them
without free will.

The problem is if you desire judgement on the choice, ie you can choose salvation or not,
then by definition it is Jesus + a choice, which is owned by the sinner or else judgement
could not be exercised on them, ie damnation to hell.

Now I hold to one simple principle, our rebellion against God means we are lost. Unless
He chooses the elect and quickens them, they will be lost. Once chosen there is a choice
of life or death, because they are now alive. And this life comes because of salvation.
Now justice is served because all choose to rebel, and deserve judgement because of sin.
Now I have a consistent model of salvation, though the grace crowd do not. They say
judgement is not for sin, because Jesus has removed all judgement for sin and it is only on
good works, done in faith or done in unbelief, and people are judged for unbelief. But how
can you be judged if you are lost in sin and rebellion, because only when you are alive in Christ
do you know life and are alive.

So the grace theology cannot give the unbelievers life, because that takes belief, and the believers
could never come to faith because it takes life to be able to choose it. So you could say Christ saves
everyone, and all fall away, except the elect, but you would have to believe you can lose your
salvation.

Some have implied this by claiming all are written in the Lambs book of life and are removed.
I prefer, I know Christ and I love Him, I cannot judge anothers walk, but I trust my Lord.

But how I can become an unbeliever and doomed to hell by my position is beyond me, because
Christ has not revealed this, and I can only love Him as the Son of the Living God except by the
Holy Spirit, so I must be alive in Christ, and this theology therefore must be wrong.

It is clear to all that you do not believe in Jesus...the bible is clear..it is all his work and we enter into his rest by faith....the fact you call the imputed righteousness of Christ a neat little trick that does not work and that you have started a thread about Jesus not being enough proves who leads you.....nothing more than a false teacher undermining God and his Son......

 

[PeterJens]

This is a very sad poster.
Good works flow from the appreciation of the debt we owe Christ.
My head has to do somersaults, to understand how you construct showing
love is denying the power of the cross.

Such odd thinking. The people I know who believe this do not understand
sin or repentance, only appearing righteous. They would never be linked to
a bleeding Christ, and would be offended by such a thing.

And I would never use such symbolism, because they only see being good as
the social thing to do to be a good witness. So not only do you miss me and
upset me, you upset the true audience and are unaware at how wrong you are.

So please do not dishonour our Lord in this way and take lightly the sin this
symbolism is creating. But I fear your heart will drive you deep into places
you should not go and endanger your very soul.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Our good works come from loving God and wanting to please Him. MMD isn't showing how love is denying the power of the cross. He's showing that those who believe their righteous acts will earn them favor with God, are grossly in error.

"never be linked to a BLEEDING Christ"? Ummm, Jesus DID indeed bleed ALOT on the cross, and it is through that blood that we are saved. So your comment makes no sense.

NONE of us are righteous. The bible says so. So that concept is also in error..

This is a very sad poster.
Good works flow from the appreciation of the debt we owe Christ.
My head has to do somersaults, to understand how you construct showing
love is denying the power of the cross.

Such odd thinking. The people I know who believe this do not understand
sin or repentance, only appearing righteous. They would never be linked to
a bleeding Christ, and would be offended by such a thing.

And I would never use such symbolism, because they only see being good as
the social thing to do to be a good witness. So not only do you miss me and
upset me, you upset the true audience and are unaware at how wrong you are.

So please do not dishonour our Lord in this way and take lightly the sin this
symbolism is creating. But I fear your heart will drive you deep into places
you should not go and endanger your very soul.

 

[mailmandan]

Our good works come from loving God and wanting to please Him. MMD isn't showing how love is denying the power of the cross. He's showing that those who believe their righteous acts will earn them favor with God, are grossly in error.

"never be linked to a BLEEDING Christ"? Ummm, Jesus DID indeed bleed ALOT on the cross, and it is through that blood that we are saved. So your comment makes no sense.

NONE of us are righteous. The bible says so. So that concept is also in error..

Amen Lady Blue! You get it.

 

[PeterJens]

It is clear to all that you do not believe in Jesus...the bible is clear..it is all his work and we enter into his rest by faith....the fact you call the imputed righteousness of Christ a neat little trick that does not work and that you have started a thread about Jesus not being enough proves who leads you.....nothing more than a false teacher undermining God and his Son......

Hello dc. Never knew you were so judgemental.

The theology of Jesus righteousness spray to blind God to your sin, is not a good
theology, and just is about fake justification. We are either washed clean and made
holy or we are still sinners. The idea of God being blind to our sin, is just a crass
distortion of belief.

Now saying I do not know Jesus is also a strange judgement as I know His love and
grace in my life. But maybe you live your life with ideas and not spiritual realities.

God bless you, and may Jesus make himself more real in your life today and bring
spiritual reality to you, Amen.

 

[mailmandan]

"never be linked to a BLEEDING Christ"? Ummm, Jesus DID indeed bleed ALOT on the cross, and it is through that blood that we are saved. So your comment makes no sense.

So it's not just me.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Well, if we aren't linked to Him through His blood, then we aren't linked to Him at all.. Pretty obvious..lol

So it's not just me.

 

[AllenW]

good the question is then have you recieved him and do you understand his works will always be needed as that is what he created you for... to do good

and good for you Jimbo

 

[dcontroversal]

Hello dc. Never knew you were so judgemental.

The theology of Jesus righteousness spray to blind God to your sin, is not a good
theology, and just is about fake justification. We are either washed clean and made
holy or we are still sinners. The idea of God being blind to our sin, is just a crass
distortion of belief.

Now saying I do not know Jesus is also a strange judgement as I know His love and
grace in my life. But maybe you live your life with ideas and not spiritual realities.

God bless you, and may Jesus make himself more real in your life today and bring
spiritual reality to you, Amen.

Man...someone who saved and born of God would not say the things you say that I referenced.....end of story.

 

[dcontroversal]

Uh Fran, no condescension intended even slightly.I honestly feel sad reading your thoughts you post. Your post is almost completely about what YOU DO. Don't you realize that it is the Holy Spirit that will do the Sanctifying?
YOUR Salvation is entirely dependent on who JESUS is, and what JESUS has done.

Amen to that....while parroting some ignorant saying made up by those who reject the grace of God in favor of a false gospel that ends in the place no one wants to go.....like I said...workers for will ride that dead horse to the pit while ignoring all the verses that state clearly that works do not save and the set of verses where Jesus rejects and casts the PLENTEOUS IN NUMBER THAT COME BEFORE HIS THRONE BOASTING OF WORKS RIGHT INTO THE PIT!

 

[FranC]

wait cheap grace



it is free grace as the picture says

and as romans says

our good works are also gifts

Grace is free and falls on all --- even the unsaved. All humans are God's creatures and He would want all to be saved, but they do not accept His grace or are even aware of it.

Cheap grace is when WE cheapen it by using the sacrifice of Jesus to allow ourselves to believe that NOTHING is due back to Him from us.

God wants our heart. That's all. And that's a lot. That's our Whole life!
Once again I have to post Romans 12:1

 

[FranC]

Romans 3:24

“Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:”


Romans 4:4

“Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.”

NNM

Romans 4:4 is an intersting verse.

It's saying what I've repeated here many times.

We are TO DO the works (any work) and we have the help of the Holy Spirit to do it.
Of our own will, we find it difficult to do many things.

But if we believe we are doing it for God, then it becomes much easier.
This is a great concept to understand. It helps us to live our lives joyfully.

 

[FranC]

Here it is again for those who missed it the first time...my working definition of santification.

OK. Ariel.

So you DO believe in good works for our sanctification.
So can we be sanctified WITHOUT good works???

You posted this as your belief.

Proper righteousness is the fruit of being given the alien righteousness of Christ and what we gain by learning to live godly lives and do good works. It is what is judged as either gold, silver precious stones, hay or stubble..,

 

[FranC]

Nobody is claiming that Jesus saves us and after that, we should do absolutely nothing in return (out of love and gratitude) for Him. Love and gratitude is my motivation for serving Jesus Christ and not pride and expectation that He will save me based on the merits of my works. Huge difference. We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19).

It's very nice that you do what you do out of love and gratitude.

Can we get to some point here where we can say that Jesus REQUIRES us to do good works?

Are they a COMMANDMENT or a SUGGESTION?

Can we make it very clear for those reading along who might be a new Christian and not really understand well whether or not good works are REQUIRED.

Are you willing to make that concession? If not, you're really saying that Jesus did NOT COMMAND but only suggested.

 

[FranC]

The Event of Sanctification
The Scriptures say that we were sanctified (past tense) and are being sanctified (present tense). You can see this in the epistles of Paulin which he addresses those who are called “saints”1 and “thosewho have been sanctified in Christ Jesus”2 and “saints”. This isalso seen in such passages as 1 Corinthians 6:11 and Hebrews10:10. These pictures show that one very important aspect of oursanctication is a past and present reality. Those who have beenjustied have also been sanctied. This is a precious truth.


The Process of Sanctification

While the Scriptures certainly teach the past and present aspectsof sanctication, they also inform us of the ongoing and futureprogression into sanctication. This truth does not contradict theevent of sanctication, but merely complements it. Those whoare holy are being made holy. Though it is diffi cult to understand,it is impossible to deny.

The above is not my works but something I have in my library.

Bill, it sounds like the Catholic version.
I don't care for it because it's confusing.

I like your paragraph no. 2. (I undersand that you didn't write it)
It's what theologians outside of the RCC believe.

 

[FranC]

When we recive our new inccorutible bodies.All died living in the living faith of God having not receiving the end of His work of faith.as a labor of His love.

Purple in (parenthesis) my private interpretation or opinion

Heb 11:7 By faith (of Chrsit) Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.(Christ’s the faith of God)

Interestingly the Spriit of Christ begins with the more well known saints to the lesser known, to those who names are not even mentioned in the scriptures. I think it is in respect to the principble, the last will be first and the first last. Even hiding the ones the worlds is said to be not worthy of. All having a good report of themselves through the faith that comes from hearing God not seen, but like all Christians in a living hope of receiving the new incorruptible bodies. Not one received the promise of Him who began the good work of salvation. He will finish it.Finsishing is better than begining, just as his work of patence is better than His pride.

Women (no particular name)received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they (no particular name) might obtain a better resurrection:And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:They(no particular name) were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;(Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.And these all, having obtained a good report through faith,(the faith that comes from hearing God not seen) received not the promise:God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Heb 11:35

Of course your first paragraph is right.

I'm sure of the point you're making with the rest.

You speak of martyers, it sounds like to me. Persons who died for their faith.

What do you mean by this? I'm contrasting THAT to persons here who are afraid to sstate that Jesus REQUIRES us to do good works --- whatever the motive may be. (that would require discussing the difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant).

 

[FranC]

What is the difference between "being saved" and "receiving salvation", Jimbo?

Never heard anyone say they are different events.

Actually Ariel, this is correct.

I believe it's Dcon who agrees with this too (not absolutely sure - he talks about the 3 steps to being saved...)

One was saved What Jimbo calles "being saved"
One is being saved " " "
One will be saved At the end of life, we RECEIVE our salvation.

Rev 22:12 (and Others)