Not By Works

[gb9]

gb9 - with the best will in the world, the point of bashing yourself about things that are
subjective is pointless. The law was given to differentiate between bad intentions and actual sin.

I was looking at the Lords prayer yesterday and saw Jesus uses the word debtors, and not sinners.
People can be in debt to you, and you to them and it not be sin, but also including sinful behaviour.

So we are called to walk in love, to know the intentions of others and how we can help or withhold
help. Seeking the best and appropriate way of expressing things is our walk, because sin does not
really touch us, unless things go wrong. So if the walk with Christ was actually about sin, we would
have arrived at day 1. But we spend each day doing things, with a focus and intention. Here in is
the ministry of the Spirit and our walk.

But you want to continually talk to me about sin. This must only be because you are still wrapped up
in this in some way.

to him who knows to do good, and does not do so, to him it is sin. this is not subjective, it is a clear definition, By the Lord's brother, of sin.

the Sermon on the mount is not subjective, it is clear standards. you either keep them or you do not. no opinions, no emotions needed. either you do or you don't.

you, peter have a wonderful desire to not sin. that is good. the problem is, that desire is so strong, it seems to make you want to re-define standards, make them more flexible , make them subjective to emotions and feelings, which they are not. this is wrong.

 

[mailmandan]

Now here you are condemning those who say obey the commandments and they are in unbelief
by not just saying believe in Jesus and do what you like.

Who is saying believe in Jesus and do what you like? Those who trust in their best efforts to obey the commandments as the means of their salvation are in unbelief.

Genuine believers trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation and not in their works. In regards to "keep" the commandments, in 1 John 2:3, we read - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (demonstrative evidence) if we keep His commandments.

BTY the Greek word for "keep" is "meno" which means to guard, observe, watch over, properly maintain, keep intact. It does not means sinless, perfect obedience to all of Christ's commandments 100% of the time.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

to him who knows to do good, and does not do so, to him it is sin. this is not subjective, it is a clear definition, By the Lord's brother, of sin.

the Sermon on the mount is not subjective, it is clear standards. you either keep them or you do not. no opinions, no emotions needed. either you do or you don't.

you, peter have a wonderful desire to not sin. that is good. the problem is, that desire is so strong, it seems to make you want to re-define standards, make them more flexible , make them subjective to emotions and feelings, which they are not. this is wrong.

thats why religion is so dangerous.

It sounds good, It feels good. It looks like the truth, It sounds like the truth, It looks Godly, Yet it is rejected by God as mere bloody rags.

In a strongh attempt to please God so many instead offend God with their self righteous things. Its no wonder they get sod mad when they are told they are wrong. Their whole life and philosophy is based of those root things, if the root is bad, the whole of it is bad..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG and his pushing me to repent and believe on Christ.
His method is to show I am proud and being defensive as if I am standing on my own self worth.

This does not work if I am standing on Christ and the cross and know my failure in myself and
100% rely on Him in faith.

Wow, I have not been in here in over 4 days, yet your still have to go at me.. I must really have taken an affect on you. I just wish it was in a positive way. And not the way your trying to portray it.

However, I will admit, Your right, it does not work, if your standing 100 on Christ and the cross. Like I am. Like GB9 is, Like Mailmandad is, Like Grace777 Is, Like Ariel is.

The problem is, for all who read what you write. We know that is not the case. If you were standing 100 % in christ, you would not say or declaring 95 % of what you say.

For this reason. We loo, at you declaring this, Thgen see what you really say, And have to declaim. It does not add up. He says he does one thing when in reality he does the other.

My problem with belief that drove this approach was the level of hard heartedness and daily
sin being confessed.


Now this illustrates emotional realities are stronger than theological ones. So take away the
language and one person is saying, I was like you once, but this fantastic experience has happened
to me, so you must follow it, because I know you, and know what you need. I would say on a
thread like this, these two statements or convictions are impossible. We can put out a few sentences
that seem to fit, that the Lord can use, but that is it.

But this is my point. Emotional realities dictate what the words mean, so you cannot translate things
that easily or be so certain speaking into a situation. It is why we are lights, shinning the light of love
and Jesus, and it is up to others to search out the source and find this love themselves.

And why I came to cc was to shine, to be a light of Christs love and goodness, to say His word can
be relied upon and that to obey is central to everything.

John 3:36
Young's Literal Translation
he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.'


J.P. Green's Literal Translation
The one believing into the Son has everlasting life; but the one disobeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

To believe is to obey and to dis-believe is to not obey.

One could read this verse as a positive statement, to believe you are saved, with the following
to not believe you are not saved, but that would be pointless, because it is in the meaning of
the first statement.

Rather to believe means to obey, so to claim you believe yet disobey is to deny your belief.

As I tried to explain before. Emotional responses are the worst methods in determining what God says. Our emotions will ALWAYS go to our beliefs. And it will never betray our beliefs, So if our belief system is r=wrong to begin with. Our emotions will always lead us back to that wrong belief, and any attempt to change that belief will be met with emotional feedback which is negative. And if the direct action to change our belief is the way of truth, and to repent from our false belief, we will never change, or repent. Because we will never admit we are wrong.

 

[gb9]

thats why religion is so dangerous.

It sounds good, It feels good. It looks like the truth, It sounds like the truth, It looks Godly, Yet it is rejected by God as mere bloody rags.

In a strongh attempt to please God so many instead offend God with their self righteous things. Its no wonder they get sod mad when they are told they are wrong. Their whole life and philosophy is based of those root things, if the root is bad, the whole of it is bad..

exactly. if a the whole belief system a person has starts with a root of " I have to be a good person so that God will accept me", then instead of doing the good works that God wants them to do, they end up just making everything about them, how good, holy, righteous, pure they are.......... and go around trying to make others like them, instead of like Christ.

Paul said " imitate me as I imitate Christ ". he did NOT say " look at how great and pure and holy I am, be like me and God will accept you" big, big difference in thought process.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

gb9 - with the best will in the world, the point of bashing yourself about things that are
subjective is pointless. The law was given to differentiate between bad intentions and actual sin.

I was looking at the Lords prayer yesterday and saw Jesus uses the word debtors, and not sinners.
People can be in debt to you, and you to them and it not be sin, but also including sinful behaviour.

So we are called to walk in love, to know the intentions of others and how we can help or withhold
help. Seeking the best and appropriate way of expressing things is our walk, because sin does not
really touch us, unless things go wrong. So if the walk with Christ was actually about sin, we would
have arrived at day 1. But we spend each day doing things, with a focus and intention. Here in is
the ministry of the Spirit and our walk.

But you want to continually talk to me about sin. This must only be because you are still wrapped up
in this in some way.

No, The law was given to lead us to christ. It was not given to show us how to be righteous. Where do you come up with this stuff?

The law can not tell you what intention you have, or why you sinned, All it can do is show you you have fallen short of Gods standard.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

exactly. if a the whole belief system a person has starts with a root of " I have to be a good person so that God will accept me", then instead of doing the good works that God wants them to do, they end up just making everything about them, how good, holy, righteous, pure they are.......... and go around trying to make others like them, instead of like Christ.

Paul said " imitate me as I imitate Christ ". he did NOT say " look at how great and pure and holy I am, be like me and God will accept you" big, big difference in thought process.

Amen

What did Paul say about himself?

"chief of all sinners"

"Wretched man"

Yet if we declaim ourselves to be these things, as imitating Paul, we are frowned upon as loving sin, easy gracers. People who fail to rely on God..

Well if thats true, I guess Paul failed.

 

[PeterJens]

Who is saying believe in Jesus and do what you like? Those who trust in their best efforts to obey the commandments as the means of their salvation are in unbelief.

Genuine believers trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation and not in their works. In regards to "keep" the commandments, in 1 John 2:3, we read - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (demonstrative evidence) if we keep His commandments.

BTY the Greek word for "keep" is "meno" which means to guard, observe, watch over, properly maintain, keep intact. It does not means sinless, perfect obedience to all of Christ's commandments 100% of the time.

Dan, let me get this right. You believe in the law of Christ. Amen.
You appear it as something close to your heart. This is no different to myself.

This is different than some have expressed their position. It is why sometimes the generalities
are not very accurate.

It is why when people have said, I cannot read the law without being condemned, there is
something wrong. It appears though this position has now changed, so it was probably just an
expression in time. It should be noted that this is not a biblical position. God bless you.

 

[PeterJens]

the Sermon on the mount is not subjective, it is clear standards. you either keep them or you do not. no opinions, no emotions needed. either you do or you don't.

you, peter have a wonderful desire to not sin. that is good. the problem is, that desire is so strong, it seems to make you want to re-define standards, make them more flexible , make them subjective to emotions and feelings, which they are not. this is wrong.

I am sorry. You seem to miss two distinct issues.
One. If I kill someone they are dead. There is no arguing with it, it is a defined act.
Now one can feel anger towards people. But you may not express it, and it resolves itself.
You can have anger and express it. Not good. If you call a brother "racca" you should be
judged. If you call a brother a "fool" you are liable to hell.

Now if you start taking irritation as sin, there is a problem. Or if you do something to help
someone it is only good if inspired by God and evil is inspired by oneself.

If you desire to offer someone a drink but do not do it, is that sin or not? It may not have
been appropriate, or it might have been totally appropriate you just decided not to.
This is a subjective action or opinion.

So I am suspicious of the extrapolations of sinful behaviour I have seen by some contributors.
Now I am fine with the law, I do not feel condemned by it.

Now if you cannot handle that nothing is truly objective but bounded by our emotions.
Those bound most strongly by their moods find it hard to admit these are an important aspect
of life, and nothing is not influenced by them.

It is sad you are saying I am redefining standards rather than seeking clarify when legalism and
closed hearts often take things the wrong way. I do not expect you to understand because this
is the nature of the situation we are in.

A for instance is perfection. Jesus mentions perfection in terms of love of your enemy.
I would be interested how we can be perfectly omnipresent, or omniscient, or all powerful,
or any other attribute of God we do not have. So it is always easy to pull language too far
and make it rediculous. So to make progress we have to an honest open conversation, and not
try and make things personal. But it appears you are not capable of this. God bless you.

 

[PeterJens]

The problem is, for all who read what you write. We know that is not the case. If you were standing 100 % in christ, you would not say or declaring 95 % of what you say.

Thankfully in this world you may reject and judge me as your heart leads you.
I cannot say the words you write about anyone. That is what is shocking for me.
But you do not see it, so very odd for a brother in Christ. I think being hit with
a baseball bat is kinder. God bless you.

By the way do you think this behaviour has no impact and does not speak of what
your heart is full of.

 

[PeterJens]

No, The law was given to lead us to christ. It was not given to show us how to be righteous. Where do you come up with this stuff?

The law can not tell you what intention you have, or why you sinned, All it can do is show you you have fallen short of Gods standard.

Now this is the commandment, the statutes, and the ordinances, which Yahweh your God commanded to teach you, that you might do them in the land where you go over to possess it; 2 that you might fear Yahweh your God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command you; you, and your son, and your son’s son, all the days of your life; and that your days may be prolonged.
Deut 6:1-2

If you will fear Yahweh, and serve him, and listen to his voice, and not rebel against the commandment of Yahweh, then both you and also the king who reigns over you are followers of Yahweh your God.
1 Sam 12:14

Therefore keep the words of this covenant and do them, that you may prosper in all that you do.
Deut 29:9

The law was given that the people may live long and prosper.
Seeking righteousness through the law will always lead to failure, because the law was
not the way to know God, the fruit of knowing God is the law.

And Jesus is fulfillment of the law, He is its greatest expression. Some feel only condemnation
on reading the law, they may never be able to see the law properly. God bless you

Unfortunately I can see myself talking to the Lord about how people cannot see the beauty
in justice, order and love working together in harmony. The teachers of the law had similar
problems seeing the law in its right context.

 

[PeterJens]

This is what Paul said about himself

For I am the least of the apostles, who is not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the assembly of God.
1 cor 15:9

You are witnesses with God, how holy, righteously, and blamelessly we behaved ourselves toward you who believe.
1 Thess 2:10

I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24 Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26 I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers.
2 Cor 11:23-26

If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness.
2 Cor 11:30

I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
2 Tim 4:7

God bless Paul, that in all things he stood strong, and held on to love and perseverance.
May we follow his example as he followed Christs, Amen God bless you.

 

[PeterJens]

Where did Paul and Silas go to preach first?

The synagoges because within them were seekers of the living God.
And in some places they came to the Lord.

So rather than being the centre of evil and hatred people of the torah and the bible
are blessed people in Gods favour.

Only the enemies of God would say these places hold the greatest evil in the history
of the faith. Yet this is the fruit of their perspective, so no matter how nice it looks
on the outside it has this deadly poison wrapped up in it.

But then if you are held in bondage for decades in legalism and you come out of it,
you have to blame someone, and anyone other than yourself is the best candidate.

 

[followjesus]

Good morning gb9. The problem with your accusation that I say that I have not sinned
in the past, because I have. When I will next fall or stumble I do not know. You seem to
believe you abide in sin constantly, which is odd for a redeemed believer.

And as I have said before, I can never say I am sinless, only God can do that. I only know
of the sins I have confessed and have repented of. So this argument is a bit pointless if you
cannot accept my words or my position. God bless you

By the way what sins have you commited today? Or are they too numerous to list?

cant really repent when we deny the Lord working in our conscience to convict of our sins, its the gog that opposes you so harshly and so often bro. there are so many distortions in it that every word has to be redefined " repentance" righteousness" faith..ect. by the time its complete the explaination has outdone the word, and omitted the plain-ness of it. I know people in this doctrine, that actually believe that all the directions and warnings about being unfruitful, are pout in the word by satan, because only the term grace, applies. they will call it the covenant of grace alone, and anything thats a direction or teaching, is of the devil and a person shouldnt believe its for a christian, its just God testing whether we really get it, knowing what to omit, and what to accept as truth.

it truly is a subtle and confusing doctrine, ending up as a blindfold and neccesatating everything to be redefined and twisted according to the pastors view, or authors view, into what isnt there as a message. its one thing, a great thing to speak of the Grace of God, its quite another to exalt the term Grace, and necessatate all the truth and righteousness as a bad idea. One of the worst ideas, is that the words of Jesus will lead a person to condemnation and destruction, when you anylyze it, its the exact opposite of what Jesus maintains, what the apostles maintain, about His word. once we accept things like that it builds high walls, through a perception of horeb that the Word of God is actually against us, and that God is not the same anymore as He has always been.

it negates the receiving of the spirit, the changing of man, and makes it the changing of Gods word rather than accepting it, which is the only thing that makes the change in us. a perception of Gods way is not the way, listen to this other way.

 

[followjesus]

This is what Paul said about himself

For I am the least of the apostles, who is not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the assembly of God.
1 cor 15:9

You are witnesses with God, how holy, righteously, and blamelessly we behaved ourselves toward you who believe.
1 Thess 2:10

I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24 Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26 I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers.
2 Cor 11:23-26

If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness.
2 Cor 11:30

I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
2 Tim 4:7

God bless Paul, that in all things he stood strong, and held on to love and perseverance.
May we follow his example as he followed Christs, Amen God bless you.

after Jesus, hes my hero for sure, a great example of faith.

so many cool stories about His life, I love when He is dragged out of the city for preaching the word, stoned and left for dead, the apostles gather around Him and he heads back into the same city lol there was no keeping a good man down,When were reading 2 timothy His words have alot of power, knowing He was going to face nero and it had been made clear to him, that His death was near, yet His concern is still the church, and keeping timothy sound in His doctrine. His heart for Jesus is impresive, i hope one day to be able to sit on a hill and talk with him.

 

[followjesus]

Dan, let me get this right. You believe in the law of Christ. Amen.
You appear it as something close to your heart. This is no different to myself.

This is different than some have expressed their position. It is why sometimes the generalities
are not very accurate.

It is why when people have said, I cannot read the law without being condemned, there is
something wrong. It appears though this position has now changed, so it was probably just an
expression in time. It should be noted that this is not a biblical position. God bless you.

the law is useful if used correctly, very useful

1 corinthians 6:9 "Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men?

how do we Know what sexual immorality really is in Gods eyes? a small example

Leviticus 20:10-16 "And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. 11And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. 12And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them. 13If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. 14And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you. 15And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast. 16And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."


its why paul says

romans 7:7 "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."

and 1 timothy 1:8 "But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;"

 

[JIMBO43]

Read the bible Jim.....he held the coats of those who stoned Stephen to death and CONSENTED WITH THEM.....

He still never killed anyone tho... his crime was persacution not murder... he persacuted the christians... it was his Job to capture them not kill them.. He did not kill christians or stephen.. its not true..

 

[JIMBO43]

Paul is an example, killed Christians.

Are you sure your a teacher coz you need to know not to teach untruths. ? not that i say youve done it deliberately but you should know better if your a teacher ?

 

[BillG]

He still never killed anyone tho... his crime was persacution not murder... he persacuted the christians... it was his Job to capture them not kill them.. He did not kill christians or stephen.. its not true..

By the very fact he rounded them up and handed them over and oversaw their murder he is as guilty as those who killed them.

Saul of Tarsus hated Christians. He made it his goal to capture, then bring Christians to public trial and execution. Saul was present when the first Christian martyr (named Stephen) was killed by an angry mob.
"... they all rushed at him (Stephen), dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. . . . And Saul was there, giving approval to his death" (Acts 7.57 to 8:1).
After Stephen was martyred, Saul went door to door in Jerusalem finding people who believed that Jesus is the Messiah.
"Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison" (Acts 8:3).

 

[JIMBO43]

By the very fact he rounded them up and handed them over and oversaw their murder he is as guilty as those who killed them.

Saul of Tarsus hated Christians. He made it his goal to capture, then bring Christians to public trial and execution. Saul was present when the first Christian martyr (named Stephen) was killed by an angry mob.
"... they all rushed at him (Stephen), dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. . . . And Saul was there, giving approval to his death" (Acts 7.57 to 8:1).
After Stephen was martyred, Saul went door to door in Jerusalem finding people who believed that Jesus is the Messiah.
"Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison" (Acts 8:3).

Paul was working as a goverment official for the romans... His job was no diffrent to police men who lock people up go to court and give a statement that gets the prisoner exercuted.... is this murder too ?