What A Sovereign God Cannot Do....

kaylagrl · May 30, 2017

I suppose Im holding on to free grace so passionately because it is very personal to me. If election is correct,in all my travels I lied to thousands of people and their blood is on my hands.I told them Jesus saves all who will come to the cross,I told them Jesus is compassionate,full of love and would have died for them had they been the only person on earth. That was a lie if election is true. Every time I prayed at an altar with a lost soul and said "believe in Jesus,let Him wash your sins away,He loves you" I was lying to half the people I spoke to if election were true. When I sang songs like with lines like "when He was on the cross,you were on His mind",I was lying. We use to sing this song by the Hemphills that said,

Jesus Saves

Jesus saves, He still does,
He'll make of you someone new, cleanse the sin that was.
The Holy Spirit whispers, "No more must you be enslaved,
Just believe it, Jesus saves.

We talk of heaven's beauty and that's good.
We talk of loving others and we should.
But to a dying world the greatest thing that we can say
Is "Take a look at Calvary, Jesus saves."

[FONT=&quot]We have heard the joyful sound, Jesus saves, Jesus saves
Spread the tidings all around, Jesus saves, Jesus saves.

[/FONT]
Jesus saves, He still does,
He'll make of you something new, cleanse the sin that was.
The Holy Spirit whispers, "No more must you be enslaved,
Just believe it, Jesus saves."

But it should have said "Jesus saves,only some of you,if you're elected and you cant know that till you die. And some of you will stay enslaved to sin because God has deemed that you are made for destruction before you ever came to earth.Oh what a horrible lie I told to those penitent sinners. I told them "whosoever will may come" and "this blood is for you".If election were true I lied to thousands of people. smh

Desertsrose · May 30, 2017

Here's Von's verse of the day.

Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

It's so simple - any child could hear that and be saved. And notice the steps towards salvation.

1. Confess Jesus is Lord.
2. Believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead.
3. You will be saved.

trofimus · May 30, 2017

kaylagrl said:

But you are aware that this is a wrong motivation for the searching, right? We should look for the truth as objectively as possible, not with our deeds defense or similar.

kaylagrl said:

I am quite surprised with your formulations. Of course election is true, because it is in the Bible. We can only debate what is the meaning of election, but it is certainly true, because apostles taught it.

kaylagrl · May 30, 2017

trofimus said:

But you are aware that this is a wrong motivation for the searching, right? We should look for the truth as objectively as possible, not with our deeds defense or similar.

I am quite surprised with your formulations. Of course election is true, because it is in the Bible. We can only debate what is the meaning of election, but it is certainly true, because apostles taught it.

But they did not teach as Calvin taught it.

trofimus · May 30, 2017

kaylagrl said:

Its your opinion. But the election is and exists. It is true:

"knowing your election, brothers loved by God..." 1 Thes 1:4

"Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election..." 2 Pt 1:10

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election ..." R 11:5

"What then? Israel has not obtained that which it seeks for; but the elected has obtained it..." R 11:7

" The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, greets you." 1 Pt 5:12

kaylagrl · May 30, 2017

trofimus said:

No,its you opinion and I never said election doesn't exist. I said the Bible doesn't teach what you believe.

Depleted · May 30, 2017

kaylagrl said:

You've maligned your character all by yourself. You're the one telling everyone that Calvinists don't believe in free choice, free grace, or evangelizing. That's on you! That's on you because we have told you for weeks now that is not true, and yet, you spent three days finding sample after sample of the same lies by people just like you.

AND you're the one who said you have no idea what to do with yourself after a woman you loved and respected attacked "my beliefs." That too is a lie in two ways.
1. I never attacked your beliefs. I told you again and again that what you are saying about MY beliefs are WRONG! And once you continued on blindly still calling them "your beliefs," then it was obviously lies! Personally, I don't do that to someone I love and respect. Most people actually listen to people they love and respect, (agreeing is optional), but not you.

2. Apparently, you did know what to do with yourself because you spent 3-4 days googling to find whatever agreed with you to throw it in our face as to why we're wrong again. You could have been learning why you upset me, but, nope! Much more important to defend what you think is wrong with what I believed as you continue to lie about what I believe. What Calvinists, in general, believe! In that, it's a pattern of lies, not merely one lie.

And that's what you chose to do, and it's no mistake. Now you're just filling the forum with garbage to defend your position. Not God anymore. Your position. Not God anymore. Your "religion."

And I have not been talking about you behind your back. You're right here, watching it. (Unless you have eyes in the back of your head.)

To everyone else, have I gone behind Kayla's back on this? Have I PM'd anyone to talk about Kayla, like she seems to be claiming now?

Because, man! Three weeks of this crap, and the only thing even my husband has heard about all this is me constantly asking if someone can be so blind that they cannot see that the Reformed do believe in free choice, God's grace and the need to evangelized? I don't talk behind anyone's back. I say it right in front of them on purpose!

Right! Calvin and Wesley are both dead. Except to you, they are the only voices to either POV. You wouldn't even listen when we all told you we aren't much on knowing what Calvin thought. We don't care. We care about what Wesley thought less. The only reason you care about Wesley suddenly, (because you didn't even know your beliefs were from him until I told you that, so it's not like you can't see me), is to prove you're right at any cost.

Now you're just going smug, as if we should be willing to keep playing this game with you, and to prove it? You've basically just said, "If you don't play, I win."

No. You lost last week, when you tried lying about the other belief to prove you have the only right belief. And, by design, this site is for adults, so triple-dog-dare-yous don't work.

This wasn't a game, except to you. This is about God to most others on both sides of the debate.

As for what religion you practice? Now I see it clearly. That's why I'm still here. To make sure no one else follows you or believes you, since you are determined to lie about any belief you disagree with.

Johnny_B · May 30, 2017

peacefulbeliever said:

The electing/calling/choosing of the Lord starts in Genesis 6:8 "But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD."

Genesis 12:1-4 “Now the Lord had said to Abram: “Get out of your country, from your family and from your father’s house, to a land that I will show you. I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great; and you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you; and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him, and Lot went with him. And Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.”

Genesis 18:17-19 “The LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? For I have chosen him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.”

Deuteronomy 4:37 “And because he loved your fathers and chose their offspring after them and brought you out of Egypt with his own presence, by his great power,”

Deuteronomy 7:6-8 “For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the LORD set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but it is because the LORD loves you and is keeping the oath that he swore to your fathers, that the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.”

Deuteronomy 10:15 “Yet the LORD set his heart in love on your fathers and chose their offspring after them, you above all peoples, as you are this day.”

Deuteronomy 14:1-2 “You are the sons of the LORD your God. You shall not cut yourselves or make any baldness on your foreheads for the dead. For you are a people holy to the LORD your God, and the LORD has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.”

Deuteronomy 18:5 “For the LORD your God has chosen him out of all your tribes to stand and minister in the name of the LORD, him and his sons for all time.”

Deuteronomy 21:5 “Then the priests, the sons of Levi, shall come forward, for the LORD your God has chosen them to minister to him and to bless in the name of the LORD, and by their word every dispute and every assault shall be settled.”

1 Samuel 10:24 “And Samuel said to all the people, “Do you see him [SUP]j[/SUP]whom the LORD has chosen? There is none like him among all the people.” And all the people shouted, “Long live the king!”

1 Samuel 16:6-10 “When they came, he looked on Eliab and thought, “Surely the LORD's anointed is before him.” But the LORD said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the LORD sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks on the heart.” Then Jesse called Abinadab and made him pass before Samuel. And he said, “Neither has the LORD chosen this one.” Then Jesse made Shammah pass by. And he said, “Neither has the LORD chosen this one.” And Jesse made seven of his sons pass before Samuel. And Samuel said to Jesse, “The LORD has not chosen these.”

[SUP]1 Samuel 20:30 “[/SUP]Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said to him, “You son of a perverse, rebellious woman, do I not know that you have chosen the son of Jesse to your own shame, and to the shame of your mother's nakedness?”

2 Samuel 21:6 “let seven of his sons be given to us, so that we may hang them before the LORD at Gibeah of Saul, the chosen of the LORD.” And the king said, “I will give them.”

1 Kings 3:6 “And your servant is in the midst of your people whom you have chosen, a great people, [SUP]n[/SUP]oo many to be numbered or counted for multitude.”

1 Kings 11:13 “However, I will not tear away all the kingdom, but I will give one tribe to your son, for the sake of David my servant and for the sake of Jerusalem that I have chosen.”

1 Chronicles 15:2 Then David said that no one but the Levites may carry the ark of God, for the LORD had chosen them to carry the ark of the LORD and to minister to him forever.”

1 Chronicles 16:13 “O offspring of Israel his servant, children of Jacob, his chosen ones!”

1 Chronicles 28:4-6 “Yet the LORD God of Israel chose me from all my father's house to be king over Israel forever. For he chose Judah as leader, and in the house of Judah my father's [SUP]t[/SUP]house, and among my father's sons he took pleasure in me to make me king over all Israel. And of all my sons (for the LORD has given me many sons) he [SUP]v[/SUP]has chosen Solomon my son to sit on the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel. He said to me, ‘It is Solomon your son who shall build my house and my courts, for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.”

1 Chronicles 29:1 “And David the king said to all the assembly, “Solomon my son, whom alone God has chosen, is young and inexperienced, and the work is great, for the palace will not be for man but for the LORD God.”

2 Chronicles 12:13 “So King Rehoboam grew strong in Jerusalem and reigned. Rehoboam was forty-one years old when he began to reign, and he reigned seventeen years in Jerusalem, the city that the LORD had chosen out of all the tribes of Israel to put his name there. His mother's name was Naamah the Ammonite.”

2 Chronicles 29:11 “My sons, do not now be negligent, for the LORD has chosen you to stand in his presence, to minister to him and to be his ministers and make offerings to him.”

Nehemiah 9:7 “You are the LORD, the God who chose Abram and brought him out of Ur of the Chaldeans and gave him the name Abraham.”

Psalms 33:12 “Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!”

Palms 78:67-71 “He rejected the tent of Joseph; he did not choose the tribe of Ephraim, but he chose the tribe of Judah, Mount Zion, which he loves. He built his sanctuary like the high heavens, like the earth, which he has founded forever. He chose David his servant and took him from the sheepfolds; from tfollowing the nursing ewes he brought him to shepherd Jacob his people, Israel his inheritance.”

Psalms 89:3, 19-22 “You have said, “I have made a covenant with my chosen one; I have sworn to David my servant:…….Of old you spoke in a vision to your godly one, and said:
“I have granted help to one who is mighty; I have exalted one chosen from the people. I have found David, my servant; with my holy oil I have anointed him, so that my hand shall be established with him; my arm also shall strengthen him. The enemy shall not outwit him;
the wicked shall not humble him.”

Psalms 105:6, 26, 43 “O offspring of Abraham, his servant, children of Jacob, his chosen ones!……He sent Moses, his servant, and Aaron, whom he had chosen……So he brought his people out with joy, his chosen ones with singing.”

Psalms 106:5, 21-23 “Remember me, O LORD, when you show favor to your people; help me when you save them,that I may look upon the prosperity of your chosen ones, that I may rejoice in the gladness of your nation, that I may glory with your inheritance…….They forgot God, their Savior, who had done great things in Egypt, wondrous works in the land of Ham,
and awesome deeds by the Red Sea. Therefore rhe said he would destroy them— had not Moses, his chosen one, stood in the breach before him, to turn away his wrath from destroying them.”

Psalms 135:4 “For the LORD has chosen Jacob for himself, Israel as his own possession.”

Isaiah 41:10 “But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you, “You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off”; fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.”

Isaiah 42:1 “Behold my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights; I have put my Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the nations.”

Isaiah 43:10, 20-21 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me……….The wild beasts will honor me, the jackals and the ostriches, for I give water in the wilderness, rivers in the desert, to give drink to my chosen people, the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.”

Isaiah 44:1-2 “But now hear, [SUP]b[/SUP]O Jacob my servant, Israel whom I have chosen! Thus says the LORD who made you, who formed you from the womb and will help you: Fear not, O Jacob my servant, Jeshurun whom I have chosen.”

Isaiah 45:4 “For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I call you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me.”

Isaiah 49:7 “Thus says the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel and his Holy One, to one deeply despised, abhorred by the nation, the servant of rulers: “Kings shall see and arise; princes, and they shall prostrate themselves; because of the LORD, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you.”

Isaiah 65:9, 15, “I will bring forth offspring from Jacob, and from Judah possessors of my mountains; my chosen shall possess it, and my servants shall dwell there…….You shall leave your name to my chosen [SUP]f[/SUP]for a curse, and the Lord GOD will put you to death, but his servants he will call by another name,……They shall not build and another inhabit; they shall not plant and another eat; for like the days of a tree shall the days of my people be, and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands.”

Haggai 2:23 “On that day, declares the LORD of hosts, I will take you, O Zerubbabel my servant, the son of Shealtiel, declares the LORD, and make you like a signet ring, for I have chosen you, declares the LORD of hosts.”

Joshua 24:2-3 “And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord God of Israel: ‘Your fathers, including Terah, the father of Abraham and the father of Nahor, dwelt on the other side of the River in old times; and they served other gods.Then I took your father Abraham from the other side of the River, led him throughout all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his descendants and gave him Isaac.”

Deuteronomy 30:19-20 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”

Those are all OT Scriptures of the Lord calling/choosing/electing, Roman 9-11 are not the only Scriptures that speak of attribute in election.

trofimus · May 30, 2017

kaylagrl said:

Sorry, but you simply lie:

kaylagrl said:

You said that.

Depleted · May 30, 2017

notuptome said:

Actually, I was answering Peace about the difference between God predestining people, not plans. And then went on to show we still agree on the word of God about him not letting anyone who wants to be saved get saved.

I'm burnt out from answering the same questions over and over again from those who don't want to believe in reformed theology. And I answered Peace because she is peaceful.

You tend to keep saying the same things over and over again.

Depleted · May 30, 2017

Pssst, Max? I think this one is answering your question.

I can't understand it right now, because I'm somewhere mixed between real life, Kayla, and it's late, so my mind is flickering, but I think Preach is answering your question and my question.

preacher4truth said:

I'm not seeing the fact that Satan blinding the intellect of unbelievers lest they believe is such a big issue or somehow perhaps contradictory. I don't see it as conflicting with the fact man is in a lost state and incapable. Certainly he is fully aware of the state of the lost according to Christ and Scripture, but we shouldn't be naìve as to his nature and rebellion toward God and His creatures and expect anything less than this, as if somehow he will now be kind toward humans and/or give up.

But being incapable and lost is not the only indictment upon the world outside of Christ: They are unable to come to God without His drawing; John 6:44,65; They are in the kingdom of darkness, and need to be delivered; Colossians 1:13. Satan is the wicked spirit who is at work in the children of disobedience; Ephesians 2:2 -- and get this -- we too were of that same state prior to Christ; Ephesians 2:3, thus Satan works upon all the lost, to blind their intellects lest they see the glory of the Gospel of Christ.

Do I understand all this fully? Not at all. This is just what Scripture says, and we happen to believe Scripture even when at times it doesn't seem logical to our human minds.

Furthermore it is not contrary to the wicked nature of Satan to afflict the lost, or attempt to prevent them from the power of the Gospel. In fact Christ warned us of this in the parable of the soils; Matthew 13:19. We are warned again in 2 Corinthians 4:4, and we should not, because this epistle is to professing believers, feel that it's only directed towards those who we think are outside of Christ as though those within a church are immune and assumed to be converted. These too could have their minds blinded - how glorious is the true Gospel to believers individually? Is it dull, non-glorious, flat, uninteresting? Each person had better examine themselves here.

I see no dilemma in all of this, it is simply a fact of the nature of that wicked spirit Satan. Furthermore as one here has suggested, 2 Corinthians 4:4 does not imply that people would be capable of seeing the light of the Glory of the Gospel of Christ if he were not blinding their minds. That is a presumption, it's a good question, but in light of other Scriptures, of which are many, we see the impossibility of man to come to Christ without God, Scriptures that do not include Satan as a reason for this inability.

We would be foolish and presumptuous to think that Satan would simply give up his efforts to destroy mankind. He is at work nonetheless, but that is, IMO enough discussion about him for a while.

preacher4truth · May 30, 2017

trofimus said:

Unfortunately the same thing I've been saying...and a couple others as well in this thread.

It is so sad, and is unbecoming of a professing believer.

Johnny_B · May 30, 2017

peacefulbeliever said:

Okay, I'll look at the verse as a whole: "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." Who are the "whom" he did foreknow that would be conformed to the image of his Son? - ONLY those that believe in his Son and ONLY those that believe in his Son are predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believes on him is not condemned; but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come unto the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest that they are worked in God. . . . . One that does the truth, i.e. believes in the only begotten Son, comes to the light for his deeds are being exercised, produced by God. God loved the "world" . . . . "whosoever" are the individuals in that world.

Who are the ones given to Jesus by the Father? Those that believe in the only begotten Son of God, our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. . . . "and he that believes on me shall never thirst" because those that believe drink from the fountain of living waters.

PB you sound as if you've become a Calvinist.

Depleted · May 30, 2017

peacefulbeliever said:

Okay, I'll look at the verse as a whole: "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." Who are the "whom" he did foreknow that would be conformed to the image of his Son? - ONLY those that believe in his Son and ONLY those that believe in his Son are predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believes on him is not condemned; but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come unto the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest that they are worked in God. . . . . One that does the truth, i.e. believes in the only begotten Son, comes to the light for his deeds are being exercised, produced by God. God loved the "world" . . . . "whosoever" are the individuals in that world.

Who are the ones given to Jesus by the Father? Those that believe in the only begotten Son of God, our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. . . . "and he that believes on me shall never thirst" because those that believe drink from the fountain of living waters.

At least we got to it's a who (people), not a what (plan.) Yay!

But did you get all of John 3:16-21? Because it sounds like you're still stuck on just verse 16. Jesus answered "Who" in verse 19 and 20. And then he answered what the Father did about it ("carried out in"/"wrought in"/"worked out in") in verse 21. Verse 17 tells what we did about it. Verse 21 tells how the Father trumped what we did about it.

Depleted · May 30, 2017

kaylagrl said:

Only because Calvin spoke in German, and you don't. Election means election in any language anywhere. Look it up. Biblically, in any dictionary you want, anywhere that defines words. It means exactly what it sounds like it means. Election! That you don't believe it, is frightening, because it is from the Bible! It is biblical. It is what God has done!

Are you really saying God couldn't possibly mean exactly what he said? Because, yeah! That is very frightening.

Election.

Depleted · May 30, 2017

Johnny_B said:

preacher4truth · May 30, 2017

...and recently I was told that the "others" (a group of a few girls and some others) in here all believed in the doctrine of election (and predestination &c) after I made implication some plainly do not believe in the doctrine, hate it and despise it.

The response that they all do believe it was intended to correct me.

Well, sadly, I knew what I was seeing - outright rejection of what God has wrought, and what He has revealed in Scripture. When people make claims give them the benefit of the doubt instead of having a knee jerk reaction maybe? It isn't that one doesn't believe in it the same way I do, it's that they don't believe it at all. There is yet even another who comes to do her drive-by snark post and ridicule those who do believe it, typically employing the term "lottery." So, there are at the least two who don't believe it. (I know a few more, but whatever).

Let's not be so fast to correct others and what they see and become everyone's spokesman and representative to the contrary. IOW chill out and know what you're talking about. (Yes, I am being snarky, but growing tired of others speaking out to correct others in total ignorance of the facts)

Desertsrose · May 30, 2017

Hi Preacher, I'll comment in blue.

preacher4truth said:

Sorry sister, I am going to remain honest: Not really. Many on here hate election. Yes. Hate election. That and they just can't accept it and attack all those who do. Many brothers, sisters and myself have been the target of their disdain, lies, and attacks, and that is a fact.

Well what I would say is that if anyone hates election, it may be Calvin's interpretation of it.

Elect is in the bible. For you it means one thing and for the opposing view it means something different. I haven't seen anyone on this thread that said they hate election or imply it either. They may not like Calvin's interpretation of anything he says. But that doesn't mean they hate election.

No, I'm not seeing that you believe in those Biblical terms, just simply giving them token acceptance. Sister, you've already shown disdain for election by using a term intended to make it sound derogatory. I know that is easier to do, to go with the crowd and straddle the fence on the issue.

If you believe in the doctrine of election you'd see it plainly throughout Scripture that God elects all who will be saved unto salvation, and none other. He chose us, not vice versa. It is the milk of the Word, and none would be saved without God electing them to salvation based upon nothing other than His decree to do so. Is that a hard truth? Of course, but it is there. We do not fully understand it, and anyone who says they do is deluded. It is somewhat a mystery, but we will know more perhaps someday.

I don't know what you mean that I used elect as a derogatory word. In what way? Which post? And I don't straddle fences. I try to keep peace among believers that don't agree. I try to understand the other's view, even if I don't agree. But I will never force anyone to believe as I do. I'll share what I believe and leave it to the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth to both sides. Is that straddling fences?

I believe in election, I can't imagine anyone not. But my view is that those who are elected unto salvation are those who respond to the gospel call by grace through faith. God's election is based on his foreknowledge of those He accepts in the beloved based on man's free will choice to believe. To you it may be a hard truth, to you it may be a mystery, but to me it's not. It's very easy to understand. But that's because my view is different than yours.

Of course, no need to ask that question, a lot of my bros and sisters hold to theological errors,

and we all have snotty little attitudes towards one another at times.

It's just the lying I cannot accept, and frankly many on here do it perpetually, and typically from the anti-Cal camp. I know that won't earn me any brownie points, but I'm not here for that.

Where is the world are all the lies you're talking about? I must be passing over some of the posts that have the lies in them.

trofimus · May 30, 2017

preacher4truth said:

I probably understand how she meant it, but she uses so wrong and exaggerated formulations that it should be pointed out....

We must be careful with words. Election is true, Bible says it. Regardless of Calvin or Wesley.

ForthAngel · May 30, 2017

The difference is that Arminians claim we elect ourselves, whereas the bible says God does the electing based on nothing other than his good will and pleasure. One elevates man, the other elevates God. The core of the issue. Is salvation in the hands of man, or God? The bible says God. The counter argument is that no, no, we believe it's all God BUT we have to choose it, which is entirely contradictory. You've added a clause to God's work that institutes man as part of the work of salvation thereby denying the work is all God, while at the same time claiming the work is all God.

The danger in the Arminian system of belief is that it attacks the very character of God. One, it limits his omniscience, as if God had to look through time and learn who would choose him. Not how it works. God created everything already knowing the outcome without having to gaze through time. He created time, he is not subject unto it.

Two, it makes God submissive to man and man's will instead of the biblical truth of man being subject unto God's will. It's essentially an attempt at dethroning God and putting man in the driver's seat.

Three, it applies human understanding and characteristics to God, as if God is a man. God's ways are higher than man's and his justice is pure, his reasoning is perfect, his will is supreme. Who are we to council God on matters of right and wrong, justice and injustice, love and wrath? In essence, this boils down to idolatry and creating a god fashioned in the likeness of man.

Four, it's an attack on the the Gospel itself and attempts to make it of no effect. The cross is entirely effectual for all who were elected and believe. The counter argument is that no, it only works for some, those who are good enough, smart enough, wise enough, or have the proper inclination to choose God out of their love for him. Pure heresy.

Five, scripture has to be rewritten and warped beyond recognition to fit the Arminian perspective. Elect doesn't really mean elected by God, it means self-election and God was like cool I'll go with that. Much of scripture is completely rejected outright like John 6 where Jesus himself said no one can come to him unless the Father draws them, so then there has to be this elaborate extrabiblical philosophy to explain how that really means God draws all people. It simply isn't in the text, just like much of what Arminians believe.

Most, even some on my side, won't agree with this, but Arminian theology and the Arminian belief system is simply idolatry and worship of man, not the God of scripture. This is the core of the issue. Man demands grace from God and God is obligated to give it at man's behest. After all, everyone deserves God's grace according to Arminianism, but nobody deserves it according to scripture. That is what makes grace, grace. The Arminian system of belief is idolatry to its very core.

What A Sovereign God Cannot Do....

kaylagrl

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

kaylagrl

Guest

Senior Member

kaylagrl

Guest

Depleted

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Depleted

Guest

Depleted

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Depleted

Guest

Depleted

Guest

Depleted

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member