Does Anyone Here Teach The Following?

[Ariel82]

Fair enough. When you worded it the first time I quoted you correctly. Then you say you didn't say that. Instead of making it appear I was falsely accusing you then, you should have cleared it up on your part instead of making another look like they've misspoke and misrepresented you. Maybe just say "I misspoke, sorry, what I meant was..."

Great advice.

Hopefully you will follow it yourself when you are unclear and people misunderstood what you have said. You will actually clarify what you mean, instead of accusing them of falsely misrepresenting you.

 

[ForthAngel]

i have googled and never found out what pelagianism is so many different definitions whats the right one???????

Basically, it teaches that man is inherently good and has an ability within themselves naturally to do things pleasing to God, or to be good apart from God. It teaches complete autonomous will.

 

[MattforJesus]

The theological doctrine of Pelagius and his followers,in particular the denial of the doctrines of original sin and predestination, and the defense of innate human goodness and free will.

Pelagianism is the belief that original sin did not taint human nature and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without special divine aid.

And this is a bad concept,for it goes right along the lines of the new age beliefs of,Will to good,mind creates reality more than the world of sense,and will open up a can of whoop butt that many people will start to view things different.

One thing leads to another.

Until eventually they will not only go by those concepts,but then there was no God that created us,which will cause the beast kingdom to come about,a kingdom that believes in no personal God,but honors the God of forces,the force of nature,and spiritual evolution by the force of nature.

The concept Will to good,the age of Aquarius,peace,will do some damage to the world in the rebelling against God.

When they say,Peace and safety,then sudden destruction comes upon them,and they shall not escape,and the man of sin,by peace shall destroy many.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

 

[PennEd]

Recently a former member posted the following accusations:



Who here teaches these things?

The Reformed have been barraged with many false accusations. One of the drive by slanders of one recently wishing to be removed from the site employed the derision of "lottery" on others who believe in Biblical election. It was intended to ridicule the doctrine of election and those who believe in it.

Now the accusations include the things included in the above quote as well.

So, I am asking, do you teach God creates people to send them to hell?

Do you teach that if one seeks God out of a contrite heart, and thus seeks forgiveness, that it isn't enough?

Or, are all of these simply more false accusations leveled at the Reformed brothers and sisters?

This is what I see... You, who have been here all of 6 months, have bullied, harassed, and ridiculed ANYONE who disagrees with ANY OF YOUR DOCTRINES without the scantest bit of love!

Now you have the unmitigating gall to grab quotes from a sweet, loving, caring member, who had been here for years, and denigrate her, without her even being here to defend herself!

I call on the mods to put an end to these threads dealing with predestination vs freewill to stop the growing enmity between brothers and sisters in the Lord.

 

[Rockrz]

Totally missed the part where he said I was making Jesus contradict himself by just quoting the Word

... that's some funny stuff right thar... I don't care who'yaere

 

[BeyondET]

You can't build doctrine on a single verse and say, "Aha! See! Got'cha!"

You didn't consider context. Jesus said there were sheep not of this fold that he must bring in before he made the statement about drawing all people. He was speaking of salvation for all people (not everyone who ever lives), that is to say not only Jews but the Gentiles as well. He said himself he lays his life down for the sheep. One must be born not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. Compare to Jesus saying unless you are born again of the spirit, you cannot see the kingdom of God. Jesus taught that no one can come to him unless the Father draws them. He and the Father are one.

This is what Jesus taught. It's what all of scripture teaches.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

And here is your objection to God:

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory

And you build doctrine out of chapters, BOLD MAN.

You offer no reference to the chapter titles but only verses you build upon.

 

[trofimus]

i have googled and never found out what pelagianism is so many different definitions whats the right one???????

Pelagius was disturbed by the immorality he encountered in Rome and saw Christians using human frailty as an excuse for their failure to live a Christian life.

He taught that the human will, as created with its abilities by God, was sufficient to live a sinless life, although he believed that God's grace assisted every good work.

Pelagius did not believe that all humanity was guilty in Adam's sin, but said that Adam had condemned mankind through bad example.

The value of Christ's redemption was, in his opinion, limited mainly to instruction and example.

He also taught that the child baptism is not necessary for a child to be saved (because he did not believe we are born guilty by Adam's sin).

---------------

This and other his teachings were condemned by the Church in the Council of Carthage (418):

1. Death did not come to Adam from a physical necessity, but through sin.
2. New-born children must be baptized on account of original sin.
3. Justifying grace not only avails for the forgiveness of past sins, but also gives assistance for the avoidance of future sins.
4. The grace of Christ not only discloses the knowledge of God's commandments, but also imparts strength to will and execute them.
5. Without God's grace it is not merely more difficult, but absolutely impossible to perform good works.
6. Not out of humility, but in truth must we confess ourselves to be sinners.
7. The saints refer the petition of the Our Father, "Forgive us our trespasses", not only to others, but also to themselves.
8. The saints pronounce the same supplication not from mere humility, but from truthfulness

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagianism#Beliefs

 

[Desertsrose]

[/B][/SIZE]
More lies about reformed theology. We don't teach that anyone is elected to hell. Mankind collectively rebelled. We are born in sin. No one seeks after God. We choose hell and reject God. No one chooses God unless they have been gifted grace and been spiritually reborn. Fundamental biblical truth. It is us who rebels. It is God who saves.

Do you deny what Jesus taught?

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Not lies. There are many camps within the Reformed Camp. Calvin, Luther and Zwingli and possibly Augustine taught double predestination. There are teachings today within Reformed Camps that hold to double predestination. So no, not lies.

Double predestination (Latin: gemina praedestinatio), or the double decree, is the doctrine that God actively reprobates, or decrees damnation of some, as well as salvation for those whom he has elected. Augustine made statements that on their own seem to teach such a doctrine, but in the context of his other writings it is not clear whether he held it.

Augustine's doctrine of predestination does seem to imply a double predestinarian view.[SUP][15][/SUP] Gottschalk of Orbais taught it more explicitly in the ninth century,[SUP][20][/SUP] and Gregory of Rimini in the fourteenth.[SUP][50][/SUP]

During the Protestant Reformation, John Calvin, Martin Luther, and Huldrych Zwingli also held double predestinarian views.[SUP][51][/SUP][SUP][52][/SUP] John Calvin states: "By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death."[SUP][53][/SUP]

 

[BeyondET]

A predestined human is some who here's the word of the crown of lead and the promises of a paycheck at the end of day.
Only to arrive at the bank where the voice said to cash it and it bounced thus been mislead.

 

[popeye]

Yeah and most free willers don't teach that either..,most know that the road is wide that leads to hell. They just think that when God gives them the option to travel the narrow road, they are given the free will to chose to turn down that path of keep walking to hell.

As far as I can tell Reformed folks say people can also choose to keep walking down the road to hell. Only difference is reformed folks say that God doesn't give up and will keep drawing His elect to the narrow road.

strawmen are erected on both sides of the free will versus election debate.

I am glad I have the free will to elect to say it is both.

I am both drawn and choose to be born again.

Once in,I can renounce my faith and become,as Paul said,shipwrecked.

Otherwise,you are a robot.

 

[trofimus]

I am glad I have the free will to elect to say it is both.

I am both drawn and choose to be born again.

Once in,I can renounce my faith and become,as Paul said,shipwrecked.

Otherwise,you are a robot.

Robot does not do what he likes. Sinners do.

 

[BeyondET]

A man is a antichrist until A man excepts Christ, there is no exceptions, no predestinations.

 

[ForthAngel]

Not lies. There are many camps within the Reformed Camp. Calvin, Luther and Zwingli and possibly Augustine taught double predestination. There are teachings today within Reformed Camps that hold to double predestination. So no, not lies.

Double predestination (Latin: gemina praedestinatio), or the double decree, is the doctrine that God actively reprobates, or decrees damnation of some, as well as salvation for those whom he has elected. Augustine made statements that on their own seem to teach such a doctrine, but in the context of his other writings it is not clear whether he held it.

Augustine's doctrine of predestination does seem to imply a double predestinarian view.[SUP][15][/SUP] Gottschalk of Orbais taught it more explicitly in the ninth century,[SUP][20][/SUP] and Gregory of Rimini in the fourteenth.[SUP][50][/SUP]

During the Protestant Reformation, John Calvin, Martin Luther, and Huldrych Zwingli also held double predestinarian views.[SUP][51][/SUP][SUP][52][/SUP] John Calvin states: "By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death."[SUP][53][/SUP]

In an ultimate sense, all things were predetermined to happen. Not forced necessarily, but determined beforehand. You would agree that God is omniscient right? He knew already before he created that man would rebel right? He knew billions would reject him and go to hell right? He created everything anyway. We all have to grapple with that fact. Doesn't matter which side of the argument we're on unless someone is an open theist and thinks God didn't create time, but is bound by it and doesn't know the future.

What we are being accused of here is equal ultimacy. People have the misconception that we believe God forces people to sin thereby condemning them. The "you think we are all robots" argument essentially which is a straw man. Reformed theology doesn't hold to that idea. I dunno anybody who does. Maybe some hyper-calvinists might. What we believe is that God created people knowing they would sin but by no means forces them to sin. God doesn't cause man to sin, neither does he tempt with evil. In fact, most of us believe he restrains the sin of men through common grace or mankind would be in much worse shape than we are.

 

[Desertsrose]

This is what I see... You, who have been here all of 6 months, have bullied, harassed, and ridiculed ANYONE who disagrees with ANY OF YOUR DOCTRINES without the scantest bit of love!

Now you have the unmitigating gall to grab quotes from a sweet, loving, caring member, who had been here for years, and denigrate her, without her even being here to defend herself!

I call on the mods to put an end to these threads dealing with predestination vs freewill to stop the growing enmity between brothers and sisters in the Lord.

Amen, PennEd!!!

 

[popeye]

Not lies. There are many camps within the Reformed Camp. Calvin, Luther and Zwingli and possibly Augustine taught double predestination. There are teachings today within Reformed Camps that hold to double predestination. So no, not lies.

Double predestination (Latin: gemina praedestinatio), or the double decree, is the doctrine that God actively reprobates, or decrees damnation of some, as well as salvation for those whom he has elected. Augustine made statements that on their own seem to teach such a doctrine, but in the context of his other writings it is not clear whether he held it.

Augustine's doctrine of predestination does seem to imply a double predestinarian view.[SUP][15][/SUP] Gottschalk of Orbais taught it more explicitly in the ninth century,[SUP][20][/SUP] and Gregory of Rimini in the fourteenth.[SUP][50][/SUP]

During the Protestant Reformation, John Calvin, Martin Luther, and Huldrych Zwingli also held double predestinarian views.[SUP][51][/SUP][SUP][52][/SUP] John Calvin states: "By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death."[SUP][53][/SUP]

See,that is what these radical doctrine "experts" keep denying. They have told us over,and over God does not choose some to go to hell.

Well how can you say one without the other?

Men's cleverness.

 

[popeye]

Robot does not do what he likes. Sinners do.

You just made my point.

They are telling you,as a believer,you can not make a decision.

 

[Desertsrose]

In an ultimate sense, all things were predetermined to happen. Not forced necessarily, but determined beforehand. You would agree that God is omniscient right? He knew already before he created that man would rebel right? He knew billions would reject him and go to hell right? He created everything anyway. We all have to grapple with that fact. Doesn't matter which side of the argument we're on unless someone is an open theist and thinks God didn't create time, but is bound by it and doesn't know the future.

What we are being accused of here is equal ultimacy. People have the misconception that we believe God forces people to sin thereby condemning them. The "you think we are all robots" argument essentially which is a straw man. Reformed theology doesn't hold to that idea. I dunno anybody who does. Maybe some hyper-calvinists might. What we believe is that God created people knowing they would sin but by no means forces them to sin. God doesn't cause man to sin, neither does he tempt with evil. In fact, most of us believe he restrains the sin of men through common grace or mankind would be in much worse shape than we are.

See how you are? You deny one thing

We don't teach that anyone is elected to hell.

and then when I show references, you act like you didn't call people liars who say Calvinism predestines people to hell. Just Unbelievable!!!

 

[Magenta]

Basically, it teaches that man is inherently good and has an ability within themselves naturally to do things pleasing to God, or to be good apart from God. It teaches complete autonomous will.

Hello ForthAngel, good morning and God bless you! Could you please clarify whether you mean this in relation to choosing God? Or is it simply a general statement that people can do good apart from being born again of the Spirit of God? Thank you

 

[trofimus]

See,that is what these radical doctrine "experts" keep denying. They have told us over,and over God does not choose some to go to hell.

Well how can you say one without the other?

Men's cleverness.

If I recall correctly, most of the "election guys" here on CC say that God elected the Church "positively". And the rest is not elected for the eternal life, i.e. they are not chosen to hell "positively", but only consequently.

If you dont understand the difference or do not like various words, I can admit that non-elect people are destined to end in hell. By their own guilt and because God will not give them enough of grace to be saved.

 

[trofimus]

You just made my point.

They are telling you,as a believer,you can not make a decision.

No. They are telling you, as a believer, you can not make all right decisions leading to eternal life without a grace of God, because you are weak and dead in sins. You can make a decision, but mostly the wrong ones. Because our unregenerated heart likes the wrong doing.