Was Mother Mary Sinless and thus disobeys Romans 3:23

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shamariel

Guest
#1
Here is my own argument that she was sinless using evidence

To answer the first part of your defense, I must say the bible says very little about Mother Mary for it is not by her we are saved, nor is her own blessed dependence by which matters in our faith as Christians. For this is not a debate about divinity, for Christ alone is Divine. This is just a lesser debate about the blessed Mother Mary of which we have only a few passages to look at. Therefore we must use theology in the process of determination by using other scriptures to fulfill and speak of this matter, for granted the exact verse stating she was sinless is not existing. Yet this does not mean there is no evidence in my own argument, for there is a process that can be shown and that you have the right to defend against my own theology of this, the subject at hand, which of course has nothing to do with the fact that Jesus Christ is the Only God.

But Rather, it is important to note that there is no direct scripture that states Jesus Christ is Fully Man and also Fully God in a direct declaration of a single verse, of which both are able to be conceived by the multiple verses which show so many declarations of Christ as both fully man and fully God. Therefore their is still evidence that Jesus Christ is fully man and fully God, though we can use the biblical scriptures to decipher with ease that Christ is both.

Indeed the reality is that Christ is both fully man and fully God comes into evidence in my own argument of this very case! For we all know that to make Christ more God than man is Gnostic. Nor can we take Christ as more human than God and thus follow a false Jesus and disobey even the making of the canon of the new testament, which is another subject thesis in itself.

So thus in the immaculate conception, I am stating in my own argument, that it is the Holy Spirit which overshadowed Mother Mary which was the Divinity of God. And because Mother Mary is fully human, I argue that this is where Christ gained his full humanity.

Yet to say that she was sinful and had a flesh nature would say that, yea even through her own blood would have thus made the infant Jesus in a contamination of sin upon his flesh, of which Mother Mary was Fully woman and that Christ gained his full humanity from her. For to say that she had any divinity would take away from Christ's Humanity, and thus make him more as divine, of which stated is Gnostic entirely.

Yet in this to take away from Christ's own Divinity to make him more man than God is to say Mother Mary could not be A full human. Yet to determine that it is not the flesh nature that makes us human, for God created both Male and female in his image, even as Adam was a man created in the image of God before his expulsion from Eden is to actually declare the opposite of this; for he was human only because of his Dependence upon God. For in his choice to disobey his own full dependence on God, he became as we are all born with a flesh nature, by which we are called animals and brute beasts of carnal pleasure until we see the Light of God, the holy Lord Jesus Christ.

For Death came through one man and the curse is well noted, for we know that Christ had overcome with his victory upon saying where death is thy sting? Yet it is also important that Eve had forth a curse for being deceived in which, her desire would be for her husband and he shall rule over you, and also that her pain of childbirth would increase and her child shall crush the head of the serpent, of which is the devil and Satan.

To thus, overcome the curse of Eve of which her desire shall be for her husband, which is in all women, would there not be a woman who would not have desired to be over her husband upon conception, even to allow him to rule over her? Even to say that in Childbearing her child would crush the head of the serpent? IF then this woman did exist, let us say in hypothesis that this would be the Mother Mary, for the Madonna became as with child, and that child was fully man from her own blood, and fully God from the Holy Spirit which overshadowed her. For I can see no other woman that could have been that to be this second eve except this blessed Virgin Mother Mary.

Yet then, to say in Hypothesis that this was so, can we test other scripture and evidence to see if this be so, or is there lack of evidence to support an argument to this hypothesis, for this we now must see.

To say then, that the second eve was fully human, yet with no divinity is easy, for even eve was not divine, but submitted unto God in Complete Dependence. IF then your argument means that complete dependence on God means that one has no choice, I will ask why then did Adam Choose to eat of the tree, though he was dependent on God fully. I argue that the devil, Satan in temptation offered a different path to God thus bringing deceit into Eve’s existence for the first time in her life in the Garden of Eden, of which her own choice was to eat and deceive her husband who ate full knowing.

IF then a second eve was made it was made to be submitted fully unto God, even in full dependence as a woman should submit without having desire to be over him at all, less the woman be not a second eve.

Thus the word blessed must come to a woman who would be MOST blessed among all women, because she was made to be the second eve in this hypothesis of which we are in examination.

Yet it is in full dependence on God that Adam and Eve were born without the stain of sin. Yet then, because we have all sinned for being born in sin we are not fully dependent on God as was Adam and Eve in the garden before their fall; yea even though God desires full dependence of which what man who lived on earth can say he has ever reached? No man can say, for the matter is we are born of sin.

Yet to take the scripture for all have sinned and fall short the Glory of God is to assume rightly that all who are born with a flesh nature have sinned, just by being born.

Yet it is easy for God to make a second eve, which is both fully human and fully dependent to bear his son so that no stain of sin would be found upon his flesh, lest he be a lamb with blemish. For if she was created without a flesh nature as a second eve, then she is excluded from the context of the scripture of Romans 3:23 for Mother Mary was not Deprived of God, for the Glory of God was with her as was even said by the angel who said the Lord is with thee, of which is noted Gabriel by name. IF then the Glory of God is deprived for all have sinned, how can a woman know the glory of God, even to see that in her was the Christ unless she be excluded in Romans 3:23 for it was written that all have sinned and are deprived the Glory of God. So thus, The Mother of the King is exempt.

Yet then to believe that God had a special calling upon her for her dependence upon him as the second eve, thus knowing no flesh nature; for we must continue this argument to full completion, is also to say that she was sinless by choice and to be as God’s handmaiden. So thus she could not desire anything other than what God demanded and upon hearing the meaning of it, she would immediately submit. Thus Christ’s full humanity is a stainless, spotless lamb of man, and fully God for the Holy spirit had overshadowed her.

To know Man’s touch would combine her with a sinful man, for all who were born in the depravity and the two would become one. Thus after Christ was conceived she remained a virgin, for it is never Christ’s will for anyone to know sin and thus Joseph could not have touched her, lest she know sin and that is against the will of God, and further to say that the womb that bore his own son should not be defiled. For in full dependence she would have submitted unto this very statement of not being defiled, else she not be the second eve in the first place.

Is it Mother Mary as an individual that is blessed for her full dependence on Jesus? To which Jesus replied, Rather blessed are those who learn dependence, for those are his mothers and brothers and sisters.

So thus, about the actual ascension of Mother Mary, if she had no flesh nature to be prepared for the blessed King Jesus Christ, fully man and fully God, she would not have ever been even made a grave, for without flesh nature there is no physical grave, and without the stain of sin she could not die, so thus either she is still on earth somewhere, fully submitted or she ascended into heaven. There is more evidence in assuming the latter.

If then, we know God can do all things, yea all things of righteousness, we cannot become indignant and say God would not have used this method as was believed by the early church of Mother Mary, but instead learn to grow, unless you have a more valid argument of which I will listen.

In conclusion, let us remember that Mother Mary is not divine, Fully human, yet fully dependent and let us also remember that it is her son the Christ that is our God and lay this smaller matter to rest and remember and preach only Christ and him crucified.

In love is all of these words of encouragement, blessings and peace in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord;

Amen
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
#2
i started at the top

and scrolled to the bottom

looking for a verse

but i found none...


i didnt read your post

but unless you use the word of God to refute the word of God

i will not believe you

may God bless you with the truth

mary did sin as the bible says

Proverbs 3:5-6

5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Romans 3:23

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


Romans 3:4

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
 
Nov 26, 2012
3,095
1,050
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#3
Sorry you wasted your time. All have sinned. James (book of James) was Jesus' brother. Mary served Joseph as his wife. What does it matter that Mary was a sinner? Her egg and womb were used. Other than that it was all Divine. It is not flesh that is sinful, it is serving the flesh rather than the Almighty that is sin. We were created to serve Him. When we do things primarily out of pleasure opposed to purpose, it is only to tantalize the flesh and seek our own glory. Sex for procreation, good! Any other sex is using our bodies for selfishness, carnal minded, bad.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,275
13,691
113
#4
Shamariel, welcome. Hungry's response notes that Mary was also a mother and wife. I would add that she herself said, "My spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour" Luke 2:47). If she were sinless, she would not need a saviour.

Hungry, you might want to rethink your last sentence. It suggests that conjugal relations between husband and wife which are not intended for procreation are selfish, carnal-minded and bad.
 
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shamariel

Guest
#5
Sorry you wasted your time. All have sinned. James (book of James) was Jesus' brother. Mary served Joseph as his wife. What does it matter that Mary was a sinner? Her egg and womb were used. Other than that it was all Divine. It is not flesh that is sinful, it is serving the flesh rather than the Almighty that is sin. We were created to serve Him. When we do things primarily out of pleasure opposed to purpose, it is only to tantalize the flesh and seek our own glory. Sex for procreation, good! Any other sex is using our bodies for selfishness, carnal minded, bad.
It seems that you believe all have sinned means even the glory of God else you would have read my entire argument of apologetics. Your lack of reading and thus replying with theology and assuming is not very good on your tact. God bless you!
 
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shamariel

Guest
#6
Stubborn, unwilling even to read?
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
#7
Stubborn, unwilling even to read?
Proverbs 3:5-6

5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Romans 12:2

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Romans 16:19

“For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.”




i am stubborn
and narrow minded because


Matthew 7:13-14

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


if you want to discuss this with Gods word

we can see what Gods word says


but your understanding
no matter which men youve spoken to


isnt anything id would give any credit to...
 
S

shamariel

Guest
#8
Proverbs 3:5-6

5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Romans 12:2

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Romans 16:19

“For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.”




i am stubborn
and narrow minded because


Matthew 7:13-14

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


if you want to discuss this with Gods word

we can see what Gods word says


but your understanding
no matter which men youve spoken to


isnt anything id would give any credit to...

Condemning before even reading shows a narrow mind. If then you read and then explained your scripture in an argument it shows that if you were wrong you would want to know, rather than assuming you are always right just because...
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
#9
Condemning before even reading shows a narrow mind. If then you read and then explained your scripture in an argument it shows that if you were wrong you would want to know, rather than assuming you are always right just because...
because Gods word says so..

ive read the whole bible

youre going against it

your words cant convince me

and if you read what i had said

i put my disclaimer for being narrow minded towards Gods word

not going to agree with men who come against it....
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
#10
Romans 3:10

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
 
S

shamariel

Guest
#11
Romans 3:10

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
If then, you say Christ is not righteous, you can say no one in the full context you are proclaiming. Yet because I gave a defense to say that the king's mother was also immune based on the evidence of my argument, of which you have not even read, then perhaps I say unto you read the argument instead of assuming I am disobeying Romans 3:23 or Romans 3:10 and argue with some sound theology.
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
#12
If then, you say Christ is not righteous, you can say no one in the full context you are proclaiming. Yet because I gave a defense to say that the king's mother was also immune based on the evidence of my argument, of which you have not even read, then perhaps I say unto you read the argument instead of assuming I am disobeying Romans 3:23 or Romans 3:10 and argue with some sound theology.
lol who said christ wasnt?


you know what

this is SILLY

and i wont entertain it

im no scholar and im going going to claim to be

but i can see if youre willing to twist words and scripture to try and prove some silly point marry was without sin

this will bear no fruit

im out


may God bless you with the truth on the matter
 
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shamariel

Guest
#13
lol who said christ wasnt?


you know what

this is SILLY

and i wont entertain it

im no scholar and im going going to claim to be

but i can see if youre willing to twist words and scripture to try and prove some silly point marry was without sin

this will bear no fruit

im out


may God bless you with the truth on the matter
This is called indignance. She says she is not a scholar but yet argues and wont even read the argument or ssearch scripture to see if it is true. Just like the Pharisees and saducees in the time of Jesus!!!
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
#14
This is called indignance. She says she is not a scholar but yet argues and wont even read the argument or ssearch scripture to see if it is true. Just like the Pharisees and saducees in the time of Jesus!!!
lol....

and now youre calling me names


what kinda girl has chin hair?
 
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shamariel

Guest
#15
lol....

and now youre calling me names


what kinda girl has chin hair?
I want to encourage you to please change the way you think about Jesus and handle yourselves according to the scripture, else the truth is shown and you don't even listen. I am praying for you actually
 
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willybob

Guest
#16
One has to define sinless according to scripture. The term is not found anywhere in the text. The whole idea is a modern day inventive straw-man designed to justify sinful behavior at the expense of the righteous, of the which the prophet Ezekiel said was an abomination to God....Remember sinners are the willful rebellious disobedient (the wicked) in the text, and are contrasted against the righteous on over a 1000 pages therein. Lets examine Mary in the bible. The scriptures witness that she was a righteous women who feared God, like Zechorias & Elezabeth, Simeon, Job, Daniel, Nathaniel, Hannah, Joseph, Jeremiah, and many others. Keep in mind, that a sinner is the OPPOSITE of a saint. The two are as different as day and night. Was Mary made in human frailty, subject to vanity for the Creators purpose? Yes...Was she free from ignorance having all knowledge? No. Did she have moments of anger, or moments of doubt? Yes...Did she have sins of ignorance that were dismissed on the day of atonement? Yes...Remember also the day of atonement was not for willful sin and rebellion, but rather only for sins of ignorance. Did Mary need a Saviour? Of course, but to say that Mary was a sinner is an abomination to God. So we can now establish that she was a righteous women. Would God pick unrighteous parents (sinners) for His only begotten Son to be subject too? I think not...The bible gives us not even the slightest hint that Mary was engaged in the vile sins of the flesh that the apostle Paul said would disqualify one from the kingdom."IE" she was not proud, not boastful, not greedy, not an adulterous, not a blasphemer, not a thief, not a liar, not a tale bearer, not a gossiper, not a busy-body, not a Sodomite, not a fornicator, not a railer, not a false accuser, not a mocker of the righteous, not a worshiper of false gods, not a participant of pagan holidays and festivals, not one that would redeem the time unwisely, being a quite and modest women who kept things in her heart, obedient to her husband, and having godly apparel. So these are not the marks of a sinner, but rather one who is numbered among the righteous in the bible...Is she a pagan goddess, or queen of heaven like the imposter Roman Catholic Mary? No....She was a righteous women who feared God and kept His commandments.....To call her just another sinner is to falsely accuse her and is an abomination to the Lord..
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,275
13,691
113
#17
This is called indignance. She says she is not a scholar but yet argues and wont even read the argument or ssearch scripture to see if it is true. Just like the Pharisees and saducees in the time of Jesus!!!
With your attitude so far, I don't suspect you'll be around long enough for it to make a difference... however, male contributors have their nicknames (above their avatars at upper left) in blue; female, in pink.

Let me suggest that, as a newcomer to the site, you extend a whole lot of grace as you learn how things work around here. You'll last longer that way. :)
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,599
28,923
113
#18
If Mary needed to be sinless so that Jesus could be sinless then Mary's mother would also need to be sinless so that Mary could have been sinless and then for Mary's mother to be sinless Mary's grandmother would also have to be sinless. What a can of worms of infinite regression all the way back to Eve, who we know was without a doubt a sinner, just as Mary was. To say Jesus Christ could not have been born sinless unless Mary was likewise sinless is an abomination of Scripture, plain and simple. Give up your RCC idolatry! Oh I understand that your popes wax poetic on Mary and it is a mandated belief that you must accept despite the fact that there is ZERO Scriptural support for her immaculate conception, same as the mandated ex cathedra dogma of her bodily assumption, again with ZERO Scriptural support, which is again simple fantasizing on the part of popes and those who follow them to their doom and destruction. Praying to her, believing she intercedes on your behalf against the express words of Scripture and moreover against the express instructions of Jesus on how to pray... shame on you!
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,599
28,923
113
#19
One has to define sinless according to scripture. The term is not found anywhere in the text. The whole idea is a modern day inventive straw-man designed to justify sinful behavior at the expense of the righteous, of the which the prophet Ezekiel said was an abomination to God....Remember sinners are the willful rebellious disobedient (the wicked) in the text, and are contrasted against the righteous on over a 1000 pages therein. Lets examine Mary in the bible. The scriptures witness that she was a righteous women who feared God, like Zechorias & Elezabeth, Simeon, Job, Daniel, Nathaniel, Hannah, Joseph, Jeremiah, and many others. Keep in mind, that a sinner is the OPPOSITE of a saint. The two are as different as day and night. Was Mary made in human frailty, subject to vanity for the Creators purpose? Yes...Was she free from ignorance having all knowledge? No. Did she have moments of anger, or moments of doubt? Yes...Did she have sins of ignorance that were dismissed on the day of atonement? Yes...Remember also the day of atonement was not for willful sin and rebellion, but rather only for sins of ignorance. Did Mary need a Saviour? Of course, but to say that Mary was a sinner is an abomination to God. So we can now establish that she was a righteous women. Would God pick unrighteous parents (sinners) for His only begotten Son to be subject too? I think not...The bible gives us not even the slightest hint that Mary was engaged in the vile sins of the flesh that the apostle Paul said would disqualify one from the kingdom."IE" she was not proud, not boastful, not greedy, not an adulterous, not a blasphemer, not a thief, not a liar, not a tale bearer, not a gossiper, not a busy-body, not a Sodomite, not a fornicator, not a railer, not a false accuser, not a mocker of the righteous, not a worshiper of false gods, not a participant of pagan holidays and festivals, not one that would redeem the time unwisely, being a quite and modest women who kept things in her heart, obedient to her husband, and having godly apparel. So these are not the marks of a sinner, but rather one who is numbered among the righteous in the bible...Is she a pagan goddess, or queen of heaven like the imposter Roman Catholic Mary? No....She was a righteous women who feared God and kept His commandments.....To call her just another sinner is to falsely accuse her and is an abomination to the Lord..
Was she born in the flesh after Adam or not? That is all one needs to know.
 
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shamariel

Guest
#20
With your attitude so far, I don't suspect you'll be around long enough for it to make a difference... however, male contributors have their nicknames (above their avatars at upper left) in blue; female, in pink.

Let me suggest that, as a newcomer to the site, you extend a whole lot of grace as you learn how things work around here. You'll last longer that way. :)
What is it that I said that was not true? he would not read the argument, noted that he was not a scholar and even said he knew the answer to my defense of the faith without even searching the scripture and making a sound argument of defense. Even when told this he refused to even be part of this. Since when do christians believe just because? Even if I was wrong, a christian is called to be able to give a defense against EVERY argument in love. Yet to claim indignance was not an insult to him, but to his own methods, of which I posted I am praying for him.