Not By Works

[Ariel82]

We are sinless in the new creation that is in Christ. Can Christ sin? We are joined in one spirit with Him. 1 Cor. 6:17. If we do a sin in the flesh - does Christ leave us? Of course not. It's religious foolishness.

There is no such thing as sinless perfection in the flesh. We have this treasure in earthen vessels. We will always have sin in our flesh as Paul says until we go to be with the Lord.

The flesh and the law of sin in it "speaks" to us and deceives us so no person is 100% manifesting in our lives the perfect love and life of Christ that is in the new creation now.


We know in part and we manifest Christ outwardly in part because of the infirmity of our flesh.

Romans 7:22-23 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,

[SUP]23 [/SUP] but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

Then Romans 8 talks about us "being in the spirit because Christ is in us" and walking by the spirit.

Romans 8:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10[/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Thank God one day we will get new bodies without the "law of sin" in them.

You believe your flesh will always be sinful but buy into the "health" part of the WOF movement?

Not sure what I can say to you right now.

I believe that those verses refer to physical illness and not sin.

That because of this fallen world we physically suffer ill health,death and disease.

God tells us He gives a way for us to overcome sin.

I don't believe perfect means "sinless" however blaming the flesh for your sin, seems like a cop out.

 

[Grace777x70]

This may help in understanding the reality of sin in our flesh and about the new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness - where Christ, the Father and the Holy spirit dwell as one with us.

Romans 7 shows the two conflicts that are going on in a believer. One is not real them ( not their true nature ). The flesh even though it stems from the corrupted Adamic influence in the world is now not the real us.

When we die and go to be with the Lord - the flesh is not coming with us!...selah

The flesh and the law of sin in our body - it wages war against the real us in Christ. Romans 7:14-22

The flesh is ways to think and act that "were" the manner of living we had when we were in Adam but now are left over the old man died on the cross with Christ. ( Eph 4:22 - in reference to your former manner of living )

Romans 7:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now, no longer am I ( the new man ) the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me (in my body which has the flesh with the power of sin in it ).

[SUP]18[/SUP] For I know that nothing good dwells in me (my body which has the flesh in it ), that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me ( in my new man ), but the doing of the good is not.

Romans 7:20-23 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But if I am doing the very thing I ( new man) do not want, I ( new man ) am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me ( the law of sin in the flesh).

[SUP]21[/SUP] I find then the principle that evil is present in me (new man ), the one who wants to do good.

[SUP]22 [/SUP] For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, ( new man in Christ),

[SUP]23 [/SUP] but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

italics = my wordsThen Romans chapter 8 comes in and shows us how to walk according to the Spirit and not the flesh to put to death the deeds of the body ( flesh in the body ). Rom 8:13

We are not fighting a civil war within ourselves ( the flesh and the law of sin do not belong to our new nature which in Christ. ). Jesus said " A house divided will not stand."

We do not have "2 selves" we have the true self in Christ and we still have the flesh. Even though the flesh manifests "itself" with "its" lusts through our bodies - it is not the real us in Christ.

We are still responsible for the deeds done in the body as they will affect our life here on this earth and we are to yield our members to the righteousness that is in us in Christ.

Sin is destructive and will destroy us and those around us if we don't walk by the Spirit - our true selves in Christ because Christ is joined to our spirit and His life will bear fruit on us the branches. The Holy Spirit transforms us as we behold the glory of the Lord as in a mirror.

Sin is deceitful and distorts our view of our loving Father, ourselves and others.

We have such a great salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ! Let's keep our eyes on the Lord and not the circumstances of life. Peter walking on the water is a perfect picture of the true Christian life.

 

[Grace777x70]

You believe your flesh will always be sinful but buy into the "health" part of the WOF movement?

Not sure what I can say to you right now.

Yes...I believe God when He said "I am the Lord that heals you" and I believe that He pardons all my sins because of the blood of Christ. But you are free to believe what you like.

Psalm 103:2-5 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Bless the LORD, O my soul, And forget none of His benefits;
[SUP]3[/SUP] Who pardons all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases;

[SUP]4 [/SUP] Who redeems your life from the pit, Who crowns you with lovingkindness and compassion;

[SUP]5 [/SUP] Who satisfies your years with good things, So that your youth is renewed like the eagle.

 

[Ariel82]

We do not war against our bodies for our bodies are temples that house the Holy Spirit.

We war against spiritual strongholds that keep us from understanding and accepting God's wisdom and truth.

 

[Ariel82]

We are told to let our flesh die and We will be made free from the law of sin.

We are commanded to serve in a new way of the Spirit.

Romans 7
6But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

 

[Ariel82]

Yes...I believe God when He said "I am the Lord that heals you" and I believe that He pardons all my sins because of the blood of Christ. But you are free to believe what you like.

Psalm 103:2-5 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Bless the LORD, O my soul, And forget none of His benefits;
[SUP]3[/SUP] Who pardons all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases;

[SUP]4 [/SUP] Who redeems your life from the pit, Who crowns you with lovingkindness and compassion;

[SUP]5 [/SUP] Who satisfies your years with good things, So that your youth is renewed like the eagle.

I believe God not only pardons my sins,He teaches me to overcome them and put to death the old man by learning to walk as His beloved child.

I believe no matter what the world throws at me He will be with me and never forsake me. With Him all things are possible and the healing of the soul is more important than the healing of these temporary tents that are destined to die.

Often we ask God to take the cup from us or remove the thorn, but we need to submit to God's will and thank Him for His providence and blessings that keep us humble and focused on the bigger picture: we are here as ambassadors for our King and our lives are to glorify Him.

We are not promised easy lives without trials or temptations. We are not promised material wealth, power or status in this world. We are promised that no matter what we go through,God will always be with us.

 

[Grace777x70]

The gospel message as explained by Paul about us believers being in Christ is - the old man has died on the cross with Jesus. The old man is a goner but we still have the flesh left over.

It's in "knowing " that the old man that was in Adam has died - this is where we begin to understand that the law of sin that is still in the flesh will not have dominion over us because we are not "in the flesh" but "in the spirit".

Again - this is where the understanding of the circumcision of Christ and the body of flesh comes into play where the body of flesh was "cut away" from our inner man in Christ. Col. 2:11. and we are forever sealed by the Holy Spirit. Eph. 4:30 & John 14:16 & Eph. 1:13

Romans 6:5-8 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

[SUP]6 [/SUP] knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

( done away with means to be idle, to make nullified, to be useless )

[SUP]7 [/SUP] for he who has died is freed from sin.

[SUP]8 [/SUP] Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

Galatians 2:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[dcontroversal]

WOW so many pages I haven't been able to read all of them. I just wanted to say Salvation is a wonderful free gift and there is nothing we can do to earn it. Its a gift of God because

"God so loved our world that he gave His only begotten son that whosoever believes on Him should not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16)"

Keep in mind though salvation is from sin and a sinful mind with a new heart (thoughts and feelings)

"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts:5 and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:" (Heb 8:10)

"And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest." (Heb 8:11)

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."

"Thou believes that there is one God; thou does well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15)

"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." (John 15:10)

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments." (1John 2:3)

"He that saith, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1John 2:4)

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again,1 he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3)

"And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."

"Whosoever commits sin transgres also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

"And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin."

"Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins hath not seen him, neither known him."

"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."

"He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother." (1John 3:3-10)

God bless you all in Christ Love!

John also said....

If WE say that WE have NO SIN, WE are deceived and the truth is not in US. <---present tense....

SO....I fully agree with all scriptures you posted except for the fact you seem to espouse sinless perfectionism......ONLY one was without sin.....that being JESUS..........

 

[dcontroversal]

Higher level of sinning = rejection of Jesus


People reach it all the time.

Why would anyone "need an enemy"? Satan a,d his minions aren't enough?

More strawmen accusations,from PeterJens...don't you ever get tired of it?

He has no other recourse....we have already proven his dogma to be false (along will all like him) so they only recourse is to cast doubt upon the truth we post by character assassination.......

 

[dcontroversal]

The prize, the upward call of God goes beyond merely receiving the gift of eternal life through faith. That's why Paul doesn't have it yet and it's not a done deal, but Paul was already saved prior to becoming perfect/mature/full grown/completeness of Christian character.

You seem to imply that salvation by grace through faith in Christ is "insufficient" to keep us saved and "in addition" to faith in Christ, we must reach entire sanctification in our lifetime/become absolutely perfect/sinless or else we won't remain saved. You also make it sound like anything short of a gold medal in the race means disqualified from the Olympics all together/will not receive eternal life. In addition to salvation, the Bible talks about rewards and crowns.

We are not merely "initially" saved by grace through faith and then ultimately saved based on the merits of our performance. Also, salvation is not probation. Eternal life is not temporary life. Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

BINGO...........ceeeegar here!

 

[Ariel82]

The old man is the flesh and was crucified with Christ. What we have is spiritual strongholds in our minds that need to be torn down.

What we need is for folks to stop trying to raise zombies and walk away from the dead man.

What we need is for folks to pick up their cross and follow Jesus, instead of staring at their belly buttons.

 

[Stephen63]

Mat 24:
42“Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. 43“But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44“For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

45“Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46“Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 47“Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48“But if that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is not coming for a long time,’ 49and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

slave - the Master's own servants
beat his fellow slaves - proves nor every servant of God is seeking perfection like some claim
weeping & gnashing of teeth - hell

faithful - those servants that are found doing the Master's bidding when He comes. (faithful obedience)

50-51 Just because that person is his Master's servant doesn't mean he has a free ride reward.

If we're saved, we are our Father's sons(servants), but that title doesn't guarantee a free ride into God's glorious presence.

God has expectations of His servants. The only sliding in scripture is sliding back, not forward.
Heb 10:
35Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. 37FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE,
HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY. 38BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH;
AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

 

[dcontroversal]

Amen...the truth that we have righteous perfect spirits because of our union with Christ is a stumbling block to some of our church teachings. We are not a new evolution - we are a new creation. They don't see the new heart in Christ. They don't understand that it's the renewing of the mind to the realities of what Christ ahs done that produces true growth by grace through faith.

There is no scripture that says at the last minute God makes us perfect when we die and go to be with the Lord.

Instead, with the body gone and the brain that houses the un-renewed thoughts that are contrary to Christ will not be there. Then we will manifest our true selves and reflect 100% the nature of our righteousness in Christ in our inner man of the heart.

The truth is we will never be more righteous then we are right now in the inner man - the true person that is one with Christ. He has perfected forever those that are being sanctified ( set apart ).

Paul in Philippians was simply saying that he has not yet been made perfect in manifesting all that is in him in Christ and to know Him as we should. We have this treasure ( Christ in us ) in an earthen vessel. We know in part and we manifest in part because of the infirmity of the flesh and our un-renewed minds.

Philippians 3:10-13 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

[SUP]11 [/SUP] If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

[SUP]12 [/SUP] Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

[SUP]13 [/SUP] Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

We are perfect in the new creation but we still have the flesh that wants to do "it's" desires.

Hebrews 12:22-24 (NASB)
[SUP]22[/SUP] But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,

[SUP]23 [/SUP] to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

[SUP]24 [/SUP] and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

AMEN....almost all workers for, sinless perfectionists and those who believe we can lose salvation dismiss the fact that numerous chapters, verses and writers of the bible (including JESUS) speak to the conflict between the born again spirit and the dead body of sin with the mind being the battle ground and that sanctification in our daily life is an ongoing process of growth, study and maturity filled with victories and defeats....YES greater is he that is in us than he that is in the world, but like JESUS said...The spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh is WEAK.........

Born again spirit<---Eternal, justified, sanctified positionally in Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit of God, does not sin
Body of flesh<--Dead, to be changed, not subject unto the word, sins and dead in sin
Mind<---The battleground for control (Fed the word, transformed, changes the outward), Carnal, stunted in growth, not much change on the outward man

 

[Grace777x70]

AMEN....almost all workers for, sinless perfectionists and those who believe we can lose salvation dismiss the fact that numerous chapters, verses and writers of the bible (including JESUS) speak to the conflict between the born again spirit and the dead body of sin with the mind being the battle ground and that sanctification in our daily life is an ongoing process of growth, study and maturity filled with victories and defeats....YES greater is he that is in us than he that is in the world, but like JESUS said...The spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh is WEAK.........

Born again spirit<---Eternal, justified, sanctified positionally in Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit of God, does not sin
Body of flesh<--Dead, to be changed, not subject unto the word, sins and dead in sin
Mind<---The battleground for control (Fed the word, transformed, changes the outward), Carnal, stunted in growth, not much change on the outward man

Amen....well said.

Religion is always trying to achieve by what they do or don't do in order to create and maintain their own righteousness - what Christ has already done on the cross and resurrection.

They are in fact teaching people to rely on their own works of righteousness in order to save them.

This nullifies the very grace of God that is in the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ from operating in our lives like it was meant to and effect real transformation by the Holy Spirit because of the life of Christ being manifested in and through us.

 

[dcontroversal]

A. The firstfruit of our rebirth is spiritual but will also be physical.

B. Jesus is the incorruptible Seed.

C. God sends the Holy Spirit to seal us

D. I agree without the Holy Spirit seal, you are not a born again child of God.

E. And this is where it falls apart for me. The Holy Spirit is incorruptible. Our spirit is linked to our hearts and mind and body.

If our flesh sins, it affects our soul. We can't divide our being and separate that this part is holy and this part is not.

Someone once told me our spiritual life is a stream of Life giving water flowing from God into our hearts. When we sin we throw trash into that stream, eventually the stream is so blocked up that parts of us die.

God is able to reach us even in the pits of our sin and produce in us godly sorrow unto repentance. Our tears wash away the trash and God restores the purity of the stream.

We are born again children of God. However we still need our daily bread and God's life giving water.

Sin affects not just these bodies that will die but our soul and our witness to the world.

God is able to heal both but not if we deny our need for His healing and reject His chastenment.

Post 11353 is my view....maybe that will help

 

[Stephen63]

 

[Grace777x70]

What are the commandments in the New Covenant?

John tells us exactly what they are. From these - all the life and love of God will be manifested.

1 John 3:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

 

[Ariel82]

AMEN....almost all workers for, sinless perfectionists and those who believe we can lose salvation dismiss the fact that numerous chapters, verses and writers of the bible (including JESUS) speak to the conflict between the born again spirit and the dead body of sin with the mind being the battle ground and that sanctification in our daily life is an ongoing process of growth, study and maturity filled with victories and defeats....YES greater is he that is in us than he that is in the world, but like JESUS said...The spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh is WEAK.........

Born again spirit<---Eternal, justified, sanctified positionally in Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit of God, does not sin
Body of flesh<--Dead, to be changed, not subject unto the word, sins and dead in sin
Mind<---The battleground for control (Fed the word, transformed, changes the outward), Carnal, stunted in growth, not much change on the outward man

Jesus had a flesh body too.

I agree that the mind is the battle field.

However I reject that the body/ flesh is the source of evil.

I believe our bodies are neutral and can be used for good or evil depending upon our "eye" or our mind's focus.

Is it upon the world's lusts and temptations or upon God and His light?

What does our heart and mind consent to?

I dont believe evil is an internal battle against our flesh. I believe it's a spiritual battle against the lies the Enemy has taught us through this corrupt world that we need to identify and reject. The lies the world teaches are the spiritual strongholds that need to be torn down.

***
The world says "look out for number one"

Jesus says "value and honor others above yourself"
****
The world says "work work work"

God says "be still and know that I am God."
***

The world says "worry, worry, worry"

God says "don't worry. Trust in me. I will provide for your physical needs. Focus instead on learning my truths and doing my will"
***
The world says "nothing you do really matters."

God says "I created you for a purpose and have good works I intend for you to accomplish in this life. You are fearfully and wonderfully made"
****
The world says "you have to earn your salvation"

God says "I sent Jesus to save you, His blood has washed you clean of your sins and the Holy Spirit will teach you my laws and a better way to live for my glory"
***
Maybe not in those exact words but that's what I hear when I read the Bible and pray.

I hear God's truth combating the lies of this world.

 

[dcontroversal]

More deceptive lies from a worker for in a feeble attempt to derail and push a law keeping false gospel that PAUL condemns in Galatians......

DUDE, if you believe this then you must KEEP every jot and tittle of the law 24/7/365 days a year or your lost..........and the LAW proves and condemns ALL before GOD because NO one can keep it...break one point guilt of the WHOLE...congrats...you openly state your condition by your belief!

 

[dcontroversal]

Jesus had a flesh body too.

I agree that the mind is the battle field.

However I reject that the body/ flesh is the source of evil.

I believe our bodies are neutral and can be used for good or evil depending upon our "eye" or our mind's focus.

Is it upon the world's lusts and temptations or upon God and His light?

What does our heart and mind consent to?

I dont believe evil is an internal battle against our flesh. I believe it's a spiritual battle against the lies the Enemy has taught us through this corrupt world that we need to identify and reject. The lies the world teaches are the spiritual strongholds that need to be torn down.

The world says "look out for number one"

Jesus says "value and honor others above yourself"

The world says "work work work"

God says "be still and know that I am God."

The world says "nothing you do really matters."

God says "I created you for a purpose and have good works I intend for you to accomplish in this life. You are fearfully and wonderfully made"

The world says "you have to earn your salvation"

God says "I sent Jesus to save you, His blood has washed you clean of your sins and the Holy Spirit will teach you my laws and a better way to live for my glory"

Maybe not in those exact words but that's what I hear when I read the Bible and pray.

I hear God's truth combating the lies of this world.

And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness

For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.