Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

#2 being that we comply or He just "makes us" as in we do nothing to aid the process?

I think We can do all we want to try to sanctify ourself, we will fail,

We have to follow his leading, and use his strength.

Thats why we have alot of baby christians who struggle to grow. But it does not mean we should not try.

and our eternal life is not based on how well we do in being sanctified. Thats why we are rewarded for how well we are sanctified, and the works we do. and not with salvation. which is by Grace alone

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I wonder how many people actually believe God's promises?

I think many believe, yet like the demons, I wonder how many actually have faith n them (vs mere belief)

 

[Ariel82]

Legalism is stating that something which is said to be a gift must be earned by some work. it is saying salvation is earned or maintained by some legal set of rules or guidelines,

however, i agree, legalism is no better than lawlessness (or as some put it, licentiousness) . I feel both are based on pride of the person who holds to either gospel.

Most people Will ignore this statement.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Most people Will ignore this statement.

I agree, which means they will continue to fail to understand what we mean and continue to say we say things which are not true.

 

[dcontroversal]

I wonder how many people actually believe God's promises?

Not many and why the way is narrow......the way that leads to one's demise is broad and most go that way....you know...The MINORITY teaches saved by grace dia faith and that it is eternal........within Christianity (so called) most teach a self preservation based upon works of some sort while ignoring the word of JESUS concerning the plenteous in number that comes before him boasting in their works and claim of knowing him.....

1 + 1 + 1= 3....<--symbolic of the above truths.....

 

[BillG]

#2 being that we comply or He just "makes us" as in we do nothing to aid the process?

I would say we comply which is to [FONT=noto_serif_devanagari]Act in accordance with a wish or command. (Oxford English Dictionary)

I think EG is saying this, in order to become more Christlike it's Christ who is doing it in us and we acknowledge this and allow him to work in us to be conformed to his image, through the Holy Spirit who is in us.

EG let me know if I have misinterpreted you.

To me there are times and I would also say periods that we don't comply and in doing so we grieve the Holy Spirit.

Then Sanctification is stunted, we don't grow as he wants us to.
That doesn't mean he will leave us, we will be corrected/chastened whether it be through his word or as a consequence of our actions.

Either way the purpose is to bring us back in line as such.
[/FONT]

 

[FranC]

Anything that we do out of our own will, strength, must do thinking is not of the grace of God. Grace is not only unmerited favor, but the influence of Holy Spirit in our life.

We do out of our Spirit man...and we can't do anything apart from Him. The problem is what are the works that we are to do?

Good works toward others? Even the unsaved can do this.

When He speaks to our spirit within...whether through His Voice, or the rhema Word as we read...then we know His personal will for our life.

The Jews were taught moral law. I think this is what you are alluding to in your posts. The gentiles had no such teachings. But, in their heart...Holy Spirit begins His work.

This is simply what we all are saying. It's His work to start our salvation...it's His work to strengthen and cause growth in our understanding, and it's His work to keep us until the day...day of what? Day of His wrath? Day of our death? Day of whatever...He keeps us.

He finishes what He starts. If left to us? None would be saved.

I asked if we ARE REQUIRED to follow the teachings and instructions Jesus left us with.

You took a Whole page and mentione that even atheists do good works.
But I wasn't asking about atheists,was I?
Do athesits believe in Jesus the same way YOU do?

So what's the one word answer?
Why are you so afraid of it?

 

[FranC]

Personally, I didn't understand this either until I knew I was no longer flesh, but Spirit. There's the true beginning of the supernatural man/woman of God.

Most don't understand this. Do you Fran?

I don't understand anything.

I'm ignorant, deceptive, and a cake taker.

I guess you understand it all.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I would say we comply which is to [FONT=noto_serif_devanagari]Act in accordance with a wish or command. (Oxford English Dictionary)

I think EG is saying this, in order to become more Christlike it's Christ who is doing it in us and we acknowledge this and allow him to work in us to be conformed to his image, through the Holy Spirit who is in us.

EG let me know if I have misinterpreted you.

To me there are times and I would also say periods that we don't comply and in doing so we grieve the Holy Spirit.

Then Sanctification is stunted, we don't grow as he wants us to.
That doesn't mean he will leave us, we will be corrected/chastened whether it be through his word or as a consequence of our actions.

Either way the purpose is to bring us back in line as such.
[/FONT]

I agree completely, and yes, this is what I was trying to say, thank you

 

[FranC]

Thus must be responded to also.

Those blotted out are those who ever has sinned against God.. Have you sinned? Then apart from salvation, Your without hope.

So your saying you are stronger than God, and you can pull yourself away from him.

I know kids who are stronger than their parents, who pull and tug and eventually break the grasp of their parents hold. But I did not know that a child of God could be stronger than he is.


Again, How can you claim to have faith in God, yet say you can pull yourself away from God.. Seems you have more faiht in your power than Gods.

Why is everything you say personal?
Do you love me or something?
Are we going to get married??

You want to know if I'm a sinner? (Am I Jesus)

I'm without hope. (God tells me I'm going to heaven --- whom should I believe? YOU or Him)

I CLAIM to have faith in God. (so I must not REALLY have it --- You're sooooooo judgemental!)

Pulling away from God: Yes I can do that. I was born with FREE WILL. God gave it to me.
WHY would He take it away from me once I became saved? Have I become a little robot??

BTW

Galatians 2:16

Notice that it says we are NOT JUSTIFIED by the WORKS OF THE LAW.

Could you explain to us the difference between:

WORKS OF THE LAW
OBEDIENCE OF FAITH (OR WORKS OF FAITH)

Thanks. I just know you'll answer with scripture.

 

[UnderGrace]

It seems you have altered your position somewhat.

Let me answer the free will question within the context of scripture and what it means to be born again and then maybe you will understand the plan of salvation and how a born again believer is declared justified by God.

Justification is a legal verdict, not about making sinners righteous but declaring them righteous.

Justification itself does not mean that God changes people within making them morally upright. That is something connected with regeneration and sanctification.

If justification were about a change within people then they would have some righteous act of their own on which to depend.

Justification is about the righteous activity of someone else (Jesus) which is put to the account of those who have absolutely nothing in themselves to plead. It is about a change of status not a change of nature.

It concerns the righteousness of another put to the sinner’s account.

When Paul states in Romans 5:19 that ‘the many will be made righteous’, he does not mean that they are made morally upright. The verb ‘to make’ there means ‘to appoint’, ‘to constitute’. He is referring to God’s judicial act in regarding them as righteous: they are set in the category of the righteous.

Look at yourself in Adam; though you had done nothing you were declared a sinner.

Look at yourself IN Christ; and see that, though you have done nothing, you are declared to be righteous. That is the parallel.


If the Judge has declared you INNOCENT of all crimes past, present and future based on the acceptance by you of

the payment of the debt, and the debt is indeed paid, how do you in your free will undo the declaration of the Judge?

Unless perhaps you do not believe the Judge or you have not accepted the payment for yourself?



Please respond and see if you can counter, based on scripture that the believer is not justified.

I feel that I must answer this:
SO...

1. God NEVER forsakes us.

2. God does not cast us out.

3. Jesus did not come to condemn the world, but to save it.

4. The Holy Spirit never withdraws.

5. God forgives our sins and then forgets them.

6. God made everyone and therefore everyone is a "child".

7. God can blot out a name from the Book of Life. Exodus 32:31-33


"Then Moses returned to the LORD, and said, "Alas, this people has committed a great sin, and they have made a god of gold for themselves. "But now, if You will, forgive their sin--and if not, please blot me out from Your book which You have written!" The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.”


BTW, Regarding numbers 1 to 6.

GOD will never let go of you.

But YOU can decide to let go of Him.

Do you have free will or not?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why is everything you say personal?
Do you love me or something?
Are we going to get married??

You want to know if I'm a sinner? (Am I Jesus)

I'm without hope. (God tells me I'm going to heaven --- whom should I believe? YOU or Him)

I CLAIM to have faith in God. (so I must not REALLY have it --- You're sooooooo judgemental!)

Pulling away from God: Yes I can do that. I was born with FREE WILL. God gave it to me.
WHY would He take it away from me once I became saved? Have I become a little robot??

BTW

Galatians 2:16

Notice that it says we are NOT JUSTIFIED by the WORKS OF THE LAW.

Could you explain to us the difference between:

WORKS OF THE LAW
OBEDIENCE OF FAITH (OR WORKS OF FAITH)

Thanks. I just know you'll answer with scripture.

A work is something you do do to earn reward, it is something you do to earn a wage, it is the opposite of grace, which is given because you can or have not earned it It of mercy

We are not saved by works, no one ever was, romans 4 and Eph 2 proves this

and works of the law were not context of either passage, any work which could garner a reward was.

even Paul told Titus we were not saved by works of rightiusness (which would include works of faith) But by god do mercy. He saved us..

works of law or works of faith, they are the same if you you are using them to earn reward.

you can not walk away from God, God would never have given you eternal life, eternal seal of the spirit promised you would never die, if he knew you would walk away.

again, you claim you have faith in God, yet by your words deny it

 

[stonesoffire]

I asked if we ARE REQUIRED to follow the teachings and instructions Jesus left us with.

You took a Whole page and mentione that even atheists do good works.
But I wasn't asking about atheists,was I?
Do athesits believe in Jesus the same way YOU do?

So what's the one word answer?
Why are you so afraid of it?

I take issue with the word required. You still don't understand faith.

Faith is substance but not in this world. In the supernatural. Spiritual realm. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ...and thou shalt be saved.

I was told by a prophet about my future. I knew before going to the meeting I was to hear about it. How? I heard His Voice.

I wasn't required to go...it was in my heart to go. My desire. Birthed by events that had happened, and what was His plan.

I don't understand why people don't see this. It's like a blind spot in sight.

If it's not of the heart...it's rote. Keeping what we have been given...the love of God shed abroad in our hearts by what?


Romans 5:5

 

[BillG]

I wonder how many people actually believe God's promises?

it would be interesting to see what a poll of Christians who were aske this question what their repsonse would be.

As someone who loves to come alongside hurting damaged people whether Christian or not (and it's part of my ministry in my church) at some point I will ask the question.

Do you know that God loves you as much as he loves Jesus?

They all say something along the lines of the following.

"No I don't, why would he, I'm useless, I'm a sinner, I sin, I don't get it right, I can't be the person he tells me to be" and so on and so on.

Then I quote Jesus

John 17:22-23
And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

There you go Jesus himself says "I am in you, you are in me and you love them as much as you love me"

I have found when they start to believe this change happens, they actually start to believe in God's promises and movement happens in them.

We do Alpha Course at our church. I attend it because after the alpha course we offer alpha plus for those interested to explore more.

On one occasion I was sat next to a guy whose origins are Muslim.
The leader quoted John 3:16.

This guy turned to me and asked "Why would God love me?
All I could say was "Why not?

He looked at me and laughed out loud and said "I can't answer that but it must be true"

He came to Christ and was baptised weeks later. Every time I see him, he comes up gives me a hug and says "why not"

Truly amazing how God works and we must remember his timing is perfect and he will work what's best for his children.

Some get it quickly and some don't.

 

[stonesoffire]

I don't understand anything.

I'm ignorant, deceptive, and a cake taker.

I guess you understand it all.

Don't give me that poor me...I asked a fair question. Was not an attack.

Do you understand you are no longer flesh...but Spirit?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I take issue with the word required. You still don't understand faith.

Faith is substance but not in this world. In the supernatural. Spiritual realm. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ...and thou shalt be saved.

I was told by a prophet about my future. I knew before going to the meeting I was to hear about it. How? I heard His Voice.

I wasn't required to go...it was in my heart to go. My desire. Birthed by events that had happened, and what was His plan.

I don't understand why people don't see this. It's like a blind spot in sight.

If it's not of the heart...it's rote. Keeping what we have been given...the love of God shed abroad in our hearts by what?


Romans 5:5

amen, faith is based in a hope of things. OT seen, not things seen.

But the flesh needs to see to b satisfied, so the flesh will never accept faith alone.

 

[BillG]

it would be interesting to see what a poll of Christians who were aske this question what their repsonse would be.

As someone who loves to come alongside hurting damaged people whether Christian or not (and it's part of my ministry in my church) at some point I will ask the question.

Do you know that God loves you as much as he loves Jesus?

They all say something along the lines of the following.

"No I don't, why would he, I'm useless, I'm a sinner, I sin, I don't get it right, I can't be the person he tells me to be" and so on and so on.

Then I quote Jesus

John 17:22-23
And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

There you go Jesus himself says "I am in you, you are in me and you love them as much as you love me"

I have found when they start to believe this change happens, they actually start to believe in God's promises and movement happens in them.

We do Alpha Course at our church. I attend it because after the alpha course we offer alpha plus for those interested to explore more.

On one occasion I was sat next to a guy whose origins are Muslim.
The leader quoted John 3:16.

This guy turned to me and asked "Why would God love me?
All I could say was "Why not?

He looked at me and laughed out loud and said "I can't answer that but it must be true"

He came to Christ and was baptised weeks later. Every time I see him, he comes up gives me a hug and says "why not"

Truly amazing how God works and we must remember his timing is perfect and he will work what's best for his children.

Some get it quickly and some don't.

Just to clarify the verses quoted above apply to beleivers but to me they also apply to non beleivers.
Even if Christ is not in unbelievers he still loves them as much as he loves Jesus.

 

[BillG]

I would say we comply which is to [FONT=noto_serif_devanagari]Act in accordance with a wish or command. (Oxford English Dictionary)

I think EG is saying this, in order to become more Christlike it's Christ who is doing it in us and we acknowledge this and allow him to work in us to be conformed to his image, through the Holy Spirit who is in us.

EG let me know if I have misinterpreted you.

To me there are times and I would also say periods that we don't comply and in doing so we grieve the Holy Spirit.

Then Sanctification is stunted, we don't grow as he wants us to.
That doesn't mean he will leave us, we will be corrected/chastened whether it be through his word or as a consequence of our actions.

Either way the purpose is to bring us back in line as such.
[/FONT]

Thanks EG...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Thanks EG...

Your welcome, and thank you

 

[FranC]

So salvation is a reward, Not a grace gift, Salvation must be earned, It is not freely given, Salvation must be purchased by our works, it was not purchased by the redemptive act of God.

Thanks, I will save this post of yours for the next time you deny teaching salvation is earned by works.

By the way, What john said is true,

Those who are saved obey his commands (not perfectly) and it is them who overcome.

How do they overcome?

1 John 4:4

You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

1 John 5:4
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

1 John 5:5

Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Thats how we overcome, By our faith in Christ. Not by works..

Again, Who was it that said they had faith? Yet they think are relying on themselves to overcome?

sad..

Scripture !

1 John 4:4

God is more powerful than the one in the world --- satan.

I'm glad you chose this scipture, because it goes on to talk about how we're supposed to love one another, because GOD IS LOVE.
1 John 4:8

"By this shall ll men know that you are my disciples, because you love one another."
John 13:35

Do we show love on this thread?

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1 John 5:4

go ahead a few verses.

1 John 5:11-12 New International Version (NIV)

11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Just wanted to bring your attention to all those present tenses.
Who HAS the So HAS life.
Who DOES NOT HAVE the Son DOES NOT HAVE lfe.



vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv


1 John 5:5

The one who overcomes the world is the one WHO BELIEVES that Jesus is the Son of God.

Again, the present tense.
Also check out John, you like John:

John 15:14
"You are My friends, if you do what I command you."
NASB

That's JESUS talking.
He COMMANDS us to do what He commanded IF we are His friends.

So faith saves us and THEN we are TO DO what Jesus commanded us to do.
Some commands are in Mathew 5 to 7.
But they can be found throughout the gospels and in other letters from those who spent years with Him.

It is REQUIRED by Jesus Himself that we obey Him. We cannot get away from that.

"