Not By Works

[mailmandan]

James 2
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

From the above: Can faith without works save you? No
Can faith with works save you? ____________ (insert answer here)


Here's a little clue: [SUP]
17 [/SUP]Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Obviously, either you completely IGNORED my post #12057 in this thread or else the truth completely went RIGHT OVER YOUR HEAD. In the latter case, there is a reason for that. *The natural man does not understand because he is spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14).

 

[Chris1975]

no it does not Chris....same root...not same word....

Romans..... Paul uses the following...

[TABLE="class: maintext"]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3049 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]logizometha[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]λογιζόμεθα[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]We reckon[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PIM/P-1P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1063 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]gar[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]γὰρ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]therefore[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1344 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]dikaiousthai[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]δικαιοῦσθαι
[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]to be justified[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PNM/P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4102 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]pistei[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]πίστει[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]by faith[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-DFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]444 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]anthrōpon[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἄνθρωπον[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]a man,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-AMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5565 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]chōris[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]χωρὶς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]apart from[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2041 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ergōn[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἔργων
[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]works[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-GNP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3551 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]nomou[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]νόμου.[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]of law.[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-GMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Greek Texts
Nestle GNT 1904
λογιζόμεθα γὰρ δικαιοῦσθαι πίστει ἄνθρωπον χωρὶς ἔργων νόμου.

Westcott and Hort 1881
λογιζόμεθα γὰρ δικαιοῦσθαι πίστει ἄνθρωπον χωρὶς ἔργων νόμου.
Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants]
λογιζόμεθα γὰρ δικαιοῦσθαι πίστει ἄνθρωπον χωρὶς ἔργων νόμου.

James uses the following


[TABLE="class: cms_table_maintext"]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_top"]Strong's[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_top"]Transliteration[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_top"]Greek[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_top, width: 21%"]English[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_top, width: 21%"]Morphology[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]11 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]Abraam[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]Ἀβραὰμ[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]Abraham[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]N-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]3588 [e]
[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]ho[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]ὁ[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]the[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]Art-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]3962 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]patēr[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]πατὴρ[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]father[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]N-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]1473 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]hēmōn[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]ἡμῶν[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]of us,[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]PPro-G1P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]3756 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]ouk[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]οὐκ[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]not[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]1537 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]ex[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]ἐξ[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]by[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]2041 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]ergōn[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]ἔργων[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]works[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]N-GNP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]1344 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]edikaiōthē[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]ἐδικαιώθη,[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]was justified,[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]V-AIP-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]399 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]anenenkas[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]ἀνενέγκας[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]having offered[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]V-APA-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]2464 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]Isaak[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]Ἰσαὰκ[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]Isaac[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]N-AMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]ton[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]τὸν[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]the[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]Art-AMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]5207 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]huion[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]υἱὸν[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]son[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]N-AMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]846 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]autou[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]αὐτοῦ[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]of him[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]PPro-GM3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]1909 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]epi[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]ἐπὶ[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]upon[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]to[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]τὸ[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]the[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]Art-ANS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_strongsnt"]2379 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_translit"]thysiastērion[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_greek2"]θυσιαστήριον;[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_eng"]altar?[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_pos"]N-ANS[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Greek Texts
Nestle GNT 1904
Ἀβραὰμ ὁ πατὴρ ἡμῶν οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων ἐδικαιώθη, ἀνενέγκας Ἰσαὰκ τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ τὸ θυσιαστήριον;
Westcott and Hort 1881
Ἀβραὰμ ὁ πατὴρ ἡμῶν οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων ἐδικαιώθη, ἀνενέγκας Ἰσαὰκ τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ τὸ θυσιαστήριον;Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants]
Ἀβραὰμ ὁ πατὴρ ἡμῶν οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων ἐδικαιώθη, ἀνενέγκας Ἰσαὰκ τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ τὸ θυσιαστήριον;

justified--ἐδικαιώθη,

Ἀβραὰμ ὁ πατὴρ ἡμῶν οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων ἐδικαιώθη, ἀνενέγκας Ἰσαὰκ τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ τὸ θυσιαστήριον;

Abraham the father of us, NOT BY WORKS WAS JUSTIFIED, having offered Isaac the son of him upon the altar.

So how, in your accounting, does the one mean justification before man, verses justification before God?

Because that's how you got yourself into this little mess of yours.....

Considering they are the same root.

 

[mailmandan]

And then have a look at the context of what James was saying in the rest of the James 2 passage. And see how "konked" it gets by trying to substitute your interpretation. Lol

You need to quit ignoring the context and learn how to properly harmonize scripture with scripture. *James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

 

[dcontroversal]

The record is clear how you twisted to force fit your doctrine. The orange font comparison is clear for all to see.

13319 is clear...I distorted nothing, but copied verbatim the Greek text and translation from both Romans and James....all can read and decide for themselves.....it is the same root, but not the same word....and both texts are clear...Paul said a man is NOT justified by works, but faith and the context is before GOD...JAMES states ALSO that Abraham was NOT justified by the work of offering Isaac....this BEARS out...because the bible states that ABRAHAM believed GOD and it was put to his account for righteousness....I am not arguing with you any more....the text is clear....receive it or NOT.......

 

[Chris1975]

13319 is clear...I distorted nothing, but copied verbatim the Greek text and translation from both Romans and James....all can read and decide for themselves.....it is the same root, but not the same word....and both texts are clear...Paul said a man is NOT justified by works, but faith and the context is before GOD...JAMES states ALSO that Abraham was NOT justified by the work of offering Isaac....this BEARS out...because the bible states that ABRAHAM believed GOD and it was put to his account for righteousness....I am not arguing with you any more....the text is clear....receive it or NOT.......

Here, lets plug your orange verse in and see what it now looks like:


[SUP]20 [/SUP]But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[SUP][f][/SUP] Abraham the father of us, NOT BY WORKS WAS JUSTIFIED, having offered Isaac the son of him upon the altar. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? [SUP]23 [/SUP]And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[SUP][g][/SUP] And he was called the friend of God. [SUP]24 [/SUP]You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.


See how this pops out as a little irritation when you change the scriptures in orange. The Red corrects you.

 

[Chris1975]

13319 is clear...I distorted nothing, but copied verbatim the Greek text and translation from both Romans and James....all can read and decide for themselves.....it is the same root, but not the same word....and both texts are clear...Paul said a man is NOT justified by works, but faith and the context is before GOD...JAMES states ALSO that Abraham was NOT justified by the work of offering Isaac....this BEARS out...because the bible states that ABRAHAM believed GOD and it was put to his account for righteousness....I am not arguing with you any more....the text is clear....receive it or NOT.......

I will then let you rest. You've had a rough one.

 

[Chris1975]

You need to quit ignoring the context and learn how to properly harmonize scripture with scripture. *James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

Harmonise this.

1 John 3v7
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

 

[dcontroversal]

So how, in your accounting, does the one mean justification before man, verses justification before God?

Because that's how you got yourself into this little mess of yours.....

Considering they are the same root.

Bro...I am in no mess......the context is clear.....FAITH and FAITH alone justifies us before GOD....The contradiction in JAMES is applied to one who claims to have faith with NO evidence of that faith which is WORKS....he states clearly SHOW ME YOUR FAITH without works.....and then states I will show YOU MY FAITH BY MY WORKS.....

the works BEFORE MEN JUSTIFIES our CLAIM of FAITH and that is exactly what he is sayin.....

The end result....NO ONE STATES we should NOT HAVE WORKS OR FRUIT......MY STANCE IS CLEAR.....

FAITH and FAITH ALONE justifies/saves US before GOD..........the result of that CLAIM of FAITH is the FRUIT or works that WE BEAR.....CREATION itself PROVES THIS......

APPLE SEED<---can you make it sprout, grow, mature and produce fruit? NO....NO MAN CAN

THE FRUIT is the result of SPROUTING, GROWING and MATURING<---ALL the work of GOD

FAITH SAVES US and JUSTIFIES us and PUTS US ALIVE in the VINE.....

THE WORKS and FRUIT are eh result of the FAITH and SALVATION we already POSSESS having been JUSTIFIED (past tense by FAITH.........

 

[dcontroversal]

Here, lets plug your orange verse in and see what it now looks like:


[SUP]20 [/SUP]But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[SUP][f][/SUP] Abraham the father of us, NOT BY WORKS WAS JUSTIFIED, having offered Isaac the son of him upon the altar. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? [SUP]23 [/SUP]And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[SUP][g][/SUP] And he was called the friend of God. [SUP]24 [/SUP]You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.


See how this pops out as a little irritation when you change the scriptures in orange. The Red corrects you.

Not my verse...a literal translation of the GREEK TEXT as pointed out in the chart (done by STRONGS and posted on BIBLE HUB)

 

[mailmandan]

Harmonise this.

1 John 3v7
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

That is a descriptive passage of scripture and so is verses 8-10. Believers do not practice righteousness in order to become righteous, but BECAUSE they are righteous. Now read on: 8 - the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

 

[Chris1975]

Bro...I am in no mess......the context is clear.....FAITH and FAITH alone justifies us before GOD....The contradiction in JAMES is applied to one who claims to have faith with NO evidence of that faith which is WORKS....he states clearly SHOW ME YOUR FAITH without works.....and then states I will show YOU MY FAITH BY MY WORKS.....

the works BEFORE MEN JUSTIFIES our CLAIM of FAITH and that is exactly what he is sayin.....

The end result....NO ONE STATES we should NOT HAVE WORKS OR FRUIT......MY STANCE IS CLEAR.....

FAITH and FAITH ALONE justifies/saves US before GOD..........the result of that CLAIM of FAITH is the FRUIT or works that WE BEAR.....CREATION itself PROVES THIS......

APPLE SEED<---can you make it sprout, grow, mature and produce fruit? NO....NO MAN CAN

THE FRUIT is the result of SPROUTING, GROWING and MATURING<---ALL the work of GOD

FAITH SAVES US and JUSTIFIES us and PUTS US ALIVE in the VINE.....

THE WORKS and FRUIT are eh result of the FAITH and SALVATION we already POSSESS having been JUSTIFIED (past tense by FAITH.........

This will help you understand "obedience" which is our part, and fruit bearing "His part".

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/154090-abiding-then-fruit.html

Please, in all sincerity (no arguing now) have a look at that link. Slow down. And study it carefully. Spend a few extra minutes.

Anyway, 2am this side. logging off. Cheers for now.

 

[Grace777x70]

Originally Posted by Chris1975

Romans 2v13
[SUP]13 [/SUP](for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

Paul and James are in agreement

Here you are taking Rom. chapter 2 out of it's context to try make it say something else. Paul was talking about the Jews are all guilty before God as the Gentiles were and the Law exposes this to them.



Here is what Paul "really" said about being justified.

Acts 13:39 (KJV)
[SUP]39 [/SUP] And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Romans 3:28 (KJV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:24 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 5:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.


Galatians 3:11 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Galatians 5:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.


Titus 3:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.



This one is really going to hurt the workers for salvation and justification.

Galatians 2:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Bump......scripture galore that shows what Paul is really talking about when it comes to being justified.

 

[Chris1975]

That is a descriptive passage of scripture and so is verses 8-10. Believers do not practice righteousness in order to become righteous, but BECAUSE they are righteous. Now read on: 8 - the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

If that was descriptive, then there would be no need to take heed that anyone deceives them. Not so? It would not be possible to be deceived, since the impossibility of not doing righteously wouldn't exist.

So the words here betray your assertions above.

 

[Chris1975]

Originally Posted by Chris1975

Romans 2v13
[SUP]13 [/SUP](for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

Paul and James are in agreement




Bump......scripture galore that shows what Paul is really talking about when it comes to being justified.

Faith and Obedience are forever linked. When you understand that, you truly understand your scriptures posted above.

 

[Stephen63]

The "Not By Works" thread

Giddy-up!

 

[mailmandan]

If that was descriptive, then there would be no need to take heed that anyone deceives them. Not so? It would not be possible to be deceived, since the impossibility of not doing righteously wouldn't exist.

So the words here betray your assertions above.

Not at all and practicing righteousness is not forced or legalistic for genuine believers. 1 John 3:7-10 are descriptive verses of children of God and children of the devil. YOU JUST DON'T GET IT.

 

[dcontroversal]

The "Not By Works" thread

Giddy-up!

Nice....and your post make me think of a dried up tumble weed......blowing across the desert.....no substance, no real value other than to spread itself around dia a lot of bloviating

You know....come to think of it...I have seen various people ask your belief and stance....and not real for sure I have seen you make a stand on anything other than snide remarks and flavorless comments.....

 

[Ariel82]

The book of James is for believers and tells how you build upon The foundation who is Jesus Christ.

It doesn't negate what is written that salvation is NOT BY WORKS.

2 types of righteousness: alien and proper.

You can't have proper/personal righteousness without first getting the alien from Jesus and being washed in His blood.

 

[UnderGrace]

After reading all this ...all I can say is...... Salvation is Gift ...Not a Reward

 

[dcontroversal]

After reading all this ...all I can say is...... Salvation is Gift ...Not a Reward

Amen...it is the GIFT of GOD, NOT of WORKS lest any man should BOAST........a GIFT cannot be earned or worked for......by it's very nature it is FREE