Not By Works

FranC · Jun 21, 2017

Sigh....

Here's the Whole post:

Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

EG says:
Ya beat me to it Bro!!

Some here love to encourage each other to spread the lie of eternal security and/or the fact that OBEDIENCE TO GOD is necessary for salvation.

God does not like persons who DO NOT OBEY Him too much.
He wouldn't even allow Moses into the Promised Land.
Why? Moses didn't have enough faith in God TO DO WHAT GOD INSTRUCTED.

The Lord commanded Moses,
“Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together.
Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water.
You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink.
So Moses took the staff from the LORD’s presence, just as He commanded him.
He and Aaron gathered the assembly together in front of the rock and Moses said to them,
‘Listen, you rebels, must we bring you water out of this rock?’
Then Moses raised his arm and struck the rock twice with his staff.
Water gushed out, and the community and their livestock drank.
But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron,
because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them.”
(Numbers 20:8-12).

Moses did not trust God.
He disrespected Him in the presence of the Israelites. Much as what happens here on this thread every day. God is mocked. It is said, publicly as with Moses, that it is NOT NECESSARY TO OBEY HIM.

FranC · Jun 21, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Good morning Dcon

Nice to see you again.
I wonder if you're still in Australia.
No matter.

Ummm.

Faith AND works are necessary.

Faith without works is dead.

James 2:14
WHAT USE IS IT, if a man says he has FAITH, but he has no works?
CAN FAITH SAVE HIM?

NO!!!!!

Then he goes on to say why:

If someone needs clothing, or food, and someone says to them GO IN PEACE, yet they do NOT DO what is necessary to help the Brother,
WHAT USE IS THAT?

IOW, what's the USE OF HAVING FAITH IF IT BRINGS NO ACTION.

FAITH IF IT HAS NO WORKS, IS DEAD.
James 2:17

BUT SOME MAY SAY: YOU have FAITH
and I HAVE WORKS.

Show me your faith WITHOUT WORKS (James just said there is NO FAITH WITHOUT WORKS)
and I WILL SHOW YOU MY FAITH BY MY WORKS.

So, if you have faith, you will ALSO HAVE WORKS.

FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS A DEAD FAITH.
Dead means it does not exist.

ARE YOU WILLING TO RECOGNIZE, FOOLISH FELLOW, THAT FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS USELESS.

SO...

Some here do say that works follow faith.
SO WHY ARE YOU SO UNWILLING TO SIMPLY STATE THAT WORKS ARE NECESSARY???

Let's see you twist this one around.
It'll be interesting.
Why take anything at face value??

FranC · Jun 21, 2017

Chris1975 said:

Chris,

No matter how big you make the words, they won't understand them.

Hardened hearts.
Believers of cheap grace.
The truth is not in them.

FranC · Jun 21, 2017

blue_ladybug said:

LOL LOL LOL

You ARE blind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Or you'd see the truth.

FranC · Jun 21, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

Not obeying God IS SINNING against God.

I'd pay heed to these words.

Of course, I take everything out of context.
The persons who were inspired and wrote down God's words to them, just did not know how to write in context.

It took thousands of years before we REALLY understood what God meant.

What nonsense.
And from YOU.

FranC · Jun 21, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

Sigh....

WHO is Moses speaking to Grace???

Come on, let's have a little intellectual honesty.

God made a covenant with Moses.
Covenants have blessings and curses.

God told Moses that whoever left this covenant and went out into other nations and worshipped other gods, and decided to removde himself from the covenant and JUST DO WHATEVER HE WANTED TO, God's anger would erupt against that person.

And rightly so.
Just as if SOMEONE TODAY ABANDONED GOD and went BACK INTO THE WORLD.

God WOULD BE ANGRY WITH THEM.

If you WANT TO BE IN a covenant, even the NEW COVENANT, you do have to be A MEMBER OF IT and STAY IN IT
or you lose it's protection.

sigh...

FranC · Jun 21, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

I could go on and on posting all kinds of scripture without taking the context and the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ into consideration.

All context starts and ends with the revelation of the risen Christ Himself. All scripture must be filtered through the finished work of Christ in order to get the context needed when reading all scripture and this means the Lord's words too.

Jesus told the rich young ruler to keep the commandments to have eternal life when he asked Jesus "What must "I do" to be saved." - but is that how we are saved today? No, Jesus used the Law to expose the ruler's need for a Savior because he loved money and had actually broken the 1st commandment.

Is this what we tell people today if they ask how do we get saved? No...We says Acts 16:30-31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

You SHOULD Always use context.

Like in the above post to which I just replied.

If you had used context, you never would have posted that verse...

Grace777x70 · Jun 21, 2017

One thing to keep in mind is that it is possible to post a "string" of scriptures that are all taken out of context from both the OT and the NT to supposedly "prove" a teaching.

I like to use Exodus 32:33 as an example. Let's say I have this "theory" that we must be sinless all of our lives to get to heaven.

I start with the below scripture from Moses and from the start it's not looking good for us......

Exodus 32:33 (NASB)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

I then can go on to post scriptures from Moses to David to Jesus all about sin and what it does. Then I end up with the book of Revelation 21:8 where it says that all immoral people will be thrown in the lake of fire.

All of these scriptures are true but none of them take into consideration the finished work of Christ and how that Jesus' blood has redeemed sinners.

Jesus' truths trump all those scriptures that were "strung" together to prove my above theory in the first place.

The finished work of Christ is what all other scriptures need to be interpreted through before IMO they can be legitimately used to support a teaching.

I love to look into the Greek as well for the different nuances but without the revealing of Christ from the Holy Spirit - we can come up with our own "interpretation".

The funny thing about Greek is that most of the people in NT days spoke Greek and understood the language unlike us today, yet they still needed the Holy Spirit to reveal the truths of the Lord to them.

I find it fascinating to read a scripture I have known all my Christian life and then one day - the Holy Spirit illuminates that scripture and I am amazed at how I didn't see that before.

I maintain that we are just as dependent on the Holy Spirit to reveal Jesus to us in the scriptures as Mary was dependent on the Holy Spirit to conceive Jesus in her womb.

We can read the scriptures through the lens of our natural minds whether we know all the Greek words and structure or not and come away with the wrong reality of spiritual truths.

gb9 · Jun 21, 2017

no one is speaking against obeying God. what the truth is we are not saved by obedience, we are saved by grace. we serve God and do our best to obey BECAUSE we are saved, not to gain or maintain salvation. are you blind to that TRUTH, ms. fran.

Grace777x70 · Jun 21, 2017

gb9 said:

Amen...we are called to be "obedient to the faith".

Being "obedient to the faith" is believing in Christ and His work for us for life and living.

This is a stumbling block to all works-based religions like the catholic religion and those that believe our loving Father throw His beloved children into hell even though the Lord Jesus Christ died and shed His blood to obtain eternal redemption for us. Heb. 9:12

Notice here that even the law-keeping good moral-living priests need to be "obedient to the faith". The keeping of the law of Moses is NOT the same as being "obedient to the faith".

Acts 6:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith.

Pagans/Gentiles also need to be "obedient to the faith" and believe in Christ and what He has done for life and living.

Romans 1:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,

All people of all types are called to be "obedient to the faith" - which is belief in Christ alone for life and living and it is all brought about by grace through faith in His finished work.

Romans 16:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;

UnderGrace · Jun 21, 2017

Sadly you have no understanding of Jesus as Propitiation, Imputed Righteousness, Justification and Atonement and Obedience and so on....

I pray sincerely, others will be shielded from your absolutely false teaching which nullifies the work of the cross and makes the Grace of God insufficient to save.

Because your theology is so faulty it does not stand up to basic reason and I know this because you would be able to rebuttal my questions with scripture completely not with little snippets taken out of context like Moses not being allowed to enter the promised land as indication that we can loose our salvation in Jesus...... that is almost laughable.

#13014 Can you answer?

And you are back to calling the Grace of God cheap...a sure sign that you do not know what it cost Him to love and bring us sure and complete salvation in Him.

FranC said:

FranC · Jun 21, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

Grace,

Thankfully we have YOU to tell us what Paul REALLY meant!

Too bad you're not right.

ROMANS 2:13
THE IMPARTIALITY OF GOD (NASB)

VERY interesting. It's talking about how we shouldn't judge other --- as is often done on this thread.
Romans 2:1
When we judge another, we condemn ourselves!
Condemning is not when we don't agree on doctrine...
it's when one is told they are going to hell because of it. (I'm not speaking about you).

The judgment of God falls upon those who practice wickedness, greed, evil, malice, SLANDER, arrogance --- who are unloving, unmerciful, boastful, etc.
Romans 1:28-32

If one does the same thing that sinners do, do they suppose God will not pass judgement on them?
Romans 2:3

Does one think that just because God is a loving God, He is not also a just God?
Romans 2:4-5

God will RENDER TO EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.
Romans 2:6

To those who BY PERSEVERANCE in doing GOOD seek for Honor, immoratlity, ETERNAL LIFE
Romans 2:7

But to those who are selfishly ambitious and DO NOT OBEY THE TRUTH, but obey UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, Wrath and Indignation
Romans 2:8

There will be distress to every man who does evil, of the JEW FIRST, and ALSO OF THE GREEK.
Romans 2:9

But glory and Honor to every man who DOES GOOD, to the JEW FIRST and also to THE GREEK.
Romans 2:10

There is NO PARTIALIY WITH GOD
Romans 2:11

If one sins without the Law he will perish without the Law --- if one doesn't know what he is doing, God will take that into account--- If you sin under the Law, you will be judged by the law --- if you know what you are doing, God will also take that into account.
Romans 2:12

Just having or hearing God's Law is a waste of time IF YOU DON'T DO WHAT HE COMMANDS.
Romans 2:13

And keep reading, it's really interesting.

eternally-gratefull · Jun 21, 2017

FranC said:

Ahh ha she is back, see how deceptive she is, she did not post the passages of scripture where we posted what the will of God was, namely in john 6, where as mailmandan posted that

40, And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

and I posted...

35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Which proves biblically what the will of the father is,

yet did she she comment on what we really said? No, of course not, she did like she always does, makes it seem like we are in collusion to pat ourselves on the backs when really all I did was say he beat me to posting pretty much the same thing,

insinserity does not not help her case, of course, we are used to it by now, but it is God for newbies to see.

FranC · Jun 21, 2017

stonesoffire said:

sigh...
The Law is to let you know you're a sinner.

The Israelites were in Egypt over 400 years.
They'd forgotten how to act.
They'd forgotten about God.
Thye'd forgotten they were sinners.
God had to remind them of this.

The Law was to show men how sinful they are.
It's a teacher.

It also does help to show how to live a civil life.
God does not waste His breath...

gb9 · Jun 21, 2017

FranC said:

Grace,

Thankfully we have YOU to tell us what Paul REALLY meant!

Too bad you're not right.

ROMANS 2:13
THE IMPARTIALITY OF GOD (NASB)

VERY interesting. It's talking about how we shouldn't judge other --- as is often done on this thread.
Romans 2:1
When we judge another, we condemn ourselves!
Condemning is not when we don't agree on doctrine...
it's when one is told they are going to hell because of it. (I'm not speaking about you).

The judgment of God falls upon those who practice wickedness, greed, evil, malice, SLANDER, arrogance --- who are unloving, unmerciful, boastful, etc.
Romans 1:28-32

If one does the same thing that sinners do, do they suppose God will not pass judgement on them?
Romans 2:3

Does one think that just because God is a loving God, He is not also a just God?
Romans 2:4-5

God will RENDER TO EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.
Romans 2:6

To those who BY PERSEVERANCE in doing GOOD seek for Honor, immoratlity, ETERNAL LIFE
Romans 2:7

But to those who are selfishly ambitious and DO NOT OBEY THE TRUTH, but obey UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, Wrath and Indignation
Romans 2:8

There will be distress to every man who does evil, of the JEW FIRST, and ALSO OF THE GREEK.
Romans 2:9

But glory and Honor to every man who DOES GOOD, to the JEW FIRST and also to THE GREEK.
Romans 2:10

There is NO PARTIALIY WITH GOD
Romans 2:11

If one sins without the Law he will perish without the Law --- if one doesn't know what he is doing, God will take that into account--- If you sin under the Law, you will be judged by the law --- if you know what you are doing, God will also take that into account.
Romans 2:12

Just having or hearing God's Law is a waste of time IF YOU DON'T DO WHAT HE COMMANDS.
Romans 2:13

And keep reading, it's really interesting.

Romans 3 v.1- then what is the advantage of being a jew? or what is the benefit of circumcision?

so this proves what grace7 says about Romans 2 is true. and you ,as usual, are wrong in your works-based mindset.

FranC · Jun 21, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

Ahh ha she is back, see hoe deceptive she is, she did not post the passages of scripture where we posted what the will of God was, namely in john 6, where as mailmandan posted that

40, And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

and I posted...

35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Which proves biblically what the will of the father is,

yet did she she comment on what we really said? No, of course not, she did like she always does, makes it seem like we are in collusion to pat ourselves on the backs when really all I did was say he beat me to posting pretty much the same thing,

insinserity does not not help her case, of course, we are used to it by now, but it is God for newbies to see.

Hey EG,

I can't sit here all day. I have other things to do, believe it or not.

So, as to my deceitfulness...

You are one heck of an accuser !!!

Please post what to what you'd like an answer.

I'm here now.

Thanks.

Grace777x70 · Jun 21, 2017

Romans 3 comes after Paul set up all people under condemnation in chapter 2 - those that have the law - the Jews - and those that have the law written in their hearts - the Gentiles because all have sinned.

Context is so important in reading the scriptures.

Romans 3:21-24 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested (1) being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

(1) (notice it is not our own righteousness that works-based salvationists say it is based on )

[SUP]22 [/SUP] even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

[SUP]23 [/SUP] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

[SUP]24 [/SUP] being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

( Being justified by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus - Not in our own works as works-based false teachers try to tell us )

It is a perversion of the gospel because the true gospel of the grace of God in Christ will manifest His life bearing fruit in and through us to a hurt and dying world that needs to know and see the love and grace of our Father and Lord towards them.

FranC · Jun 21, 2017

gb9 said:

sigh...

See Romans 3:1.9 and on...

eternally-gratefull · Jun 21, 2017

FranC said:

Good morning Dcon

Nice to see you again.
I wonder if you're still in Australia.
No matter.

Ummm.

Faith AND works are necessary.

Faith without works is dead.

James 2:14
WHAT USE IS IT, if a man says he has FAITH, but he has no works?
CAN FAITH SAVE HIM?

NO!!!!!

Then he goes on to say why:

If someone needs clothing, or food, and someone says to them GO IN PEACE, yet they do NOT DO what is necessary to help the Brother,
WHAT USE IS THAT?

IOW, what's the USE OF HAVING FAITH IF IT BRINGS NO ACTION.

FAITH IF IT HAS NO WORKS, IS DEAD.
James 2:17

BUT SOME MAY SAY: YOU have FAITH
and I HAVE WORKS.

Show me your faith WITHOUT WORKS (James just said there is NO FAITH WITHOUT WORKS)
and I WILL SHOW YOU MY FAITH BY MY WORKS.

So, if you have faith, you will ALSO HAVE WORKS.

FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS A DEAD FAITH.
Dead means it does not exist.

ARE YOU WILLING TO RECOGNIZE, FOOLISH FELLOW, THAT FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS USELESS.

SO...

Some here do say that works follow faith.
SO WHY ARE YOU SO UNWILLING TO SIMPLY STATE THAT WORKS ARE NECESSARY???

Let's see you twist this one around.
It'll be interesting.
Why take anything at face value??

Can you name name how many works James said are required to prove works are not dead? And explain why James contradicted Paul?

eternally-gratefull · Jun 21, 2017

FranC said:

Yep this helps your case, where is scripture?

Not By Works

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