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I agree - much of the principles of OT law of Moses have been 'incorporated into the commandments and even our 'civil laws appliccable today - just that people don't notice because they consider them all abolished....like gotime says, they must work together with the NT, harmonise to be true and effective.
We don't start until Sabbath ends. We have one Orthodox Jew that studies with us. When he came on board with what we are doing, we naturally made adjustments so as not to inter-fair with his customs. It was the lest we could do, after all He stepped out side of his religion, and became open to a study that included the NT.
Short story on this all came about.
I was wanting to do a Pesach Sader, ( passover dinner) I know that a hotel in here in town was run by a Jewish family, so went and asked if they minded showing me how it was done. They agreed, only they didn't ask me to join them, they just showed me. That was good enough for me. Well after about 4 months of this Home church kind of thing. Us talking about the Sages, and what they can offer us, the Baptist pastor went and asked him to join for just one night.
Well when the man seen me, he asked how things went, and how if at all it had changed me. After my answer, we spent that night only in the OT, even though the NT had been referred to. It was after word that the man asked, "Can I join you every week?"
I was happy to say yes, and let him know that we do bring the NT into our study every week. We hadn't done so that night out of respect for him.
He kind of looked at me, with this look of horror on his face. Then after a second he asked if we would try to convert him. So we talked about how that is not our job, and that if anything like that did come about, it would be the work of the Holy Spirit, and not us. We use the NT, and it's teachings to keep us true to our selves. We don't follow Rabbinic Law, even though at lest one of us had studied it. We all love the Jewish people, and are willing to fight in anyway we can to defend Israel in our own nation.
He must have liked what I said, and he never misses a meeting. To this day, not one of has ever said a word about conversion, and we let him know how much his input has changed how we see the Word.
Will he ever turn to Yeshua? I don't know. I do know the man in less than a year can now off the top of his head, quote almost the interior NT. He is trying to show me how, only he keeps telling me I am a hopeless mess, and I need a brain transplant. LOL Yes he is just ribbing me. He is also going to try and help me learn to blow the Shofar better than I do. I use to blow it to open our meeting, now he does. He told me to stop farting in it, and blow it. LOL
Short story on this all came about.
I was wanting to do a Pesach Sader, ( passover dinner) I know that a hotel in here in town was run by a Jewish family, so went and asked if they minded showing me how it was done. They agreed, only they didn't ask me to join them, they just showed me. That was good enough for me. Well after about 4 months of this Home church kind of thing. Us talking about the Sages, and what they can offer us, the Baptist pastor went and asked him to join for just one night.
Well when the man seen me, he asked how things went, and how if at all it had changed me. After my answer, we spent that night only in the OT, even though the NT had been referred to. It was after word that the man asked, "Can I join you every week?"
I was happy to say yes, and let him know that we do bring the NT into our study every week. We hadn't done so that night out of respect for him.
He kind of looked at me, with this look of horror on his face. Then after a second he asked if we would try to convert him. So we talked about how that is not our job, and that if anything like that did come about, it would be the work of the Holy Spirit, and not us. We use the NT, and it's teachings to keep us true to our selves. We don't follow Rabbinic Law, even though at lest one of us had studied it. We all love the Jewish people, and are willing to fight in anyway we can to defend Israel in our own nation.
He must have liked what I said, and he never misses a meeting. To this day, not one of has ever said a word about conversion, and we let him know how much his input has changed how we see the Word.
Will he ever turn to Yeshua? I don't know. I do know the man in less than a year can now off the top of his head, quote almost the interior NT. He is trying to show me how, only he keeps telling me I am a hopeless mess, and I need a brain transplant. LOL Yes he is just ribbing me. He is also going to try and help me learn to blow the Shofar better than I do. I use to blow it to open our meeting, now he does. He told me to stop farting in it, and blow it. LOL
Oh you naughty boy using such language, think I would blush in your meetings !
But on to more important stuff...what is this about starting Sabbath when it ends...hope you only mean the timeline difference...had me worried for a moment, thought you meant sunday...since many christians call sunday their sabbath just to add to all the confusion !
Can I ask if you are a Messianic ?
But on to more important stuff...what is this about starting Sabbath when it ends...hope you only mean the timeline difference...had me worried for a moment, thought you meant sunday...since many christians call sunday their sabbath just to add to all the confusion !
Can I ask if you are a Messianic ?
We do meet on Sunday now. I do my Shabbat, and I am sure that at lest my Jewish friend does as well. The Baptist, Pentecostal, RCC, Methodist, and Lutheran do what ever they do. Yes we have many different denominations that attend. Wasn't easy getting them all under one roof. At times I do think, "Why did I ever do this?" The one thing that really helped get it going is that in the end we will be one church, one body, and follow the same codes and laws. There is no way of getting out of that one. When Yeshua is running the show, we will do as He tells us, and we will follow His Laws.
Ezekiel 36:26-27
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Galatians 3:2-5
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Galatians 3:2-5
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
great quote, Fits perfectly with everything I have said so far. The new covenant promise found in Ezekiel shows that Gods giving the Spirit and softening their heart results in them walking in Gods law and judgements actually doing them.
Contextually these are none other than the law of God in the OT. Just as I have said the whole time, Gods writing on the heart the law ends up with us keeping it. Paul says it becomes natural to do the things that are in the law.
This fits with Keeping the Sabbath.
Contextually these are none other than the law of God in the OT. Just as I have said the whole time, Gods writing on the heart the law ends up with us keeping it. Paul says it becomes natural to do the things that are in the law.
This fits with Keeping the Sabbath.
Why are you trying to keep the sabbath as God's holy day?
The church did their collection on a Sunday when they held church services.
1 Corinthians 16:1Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.[SUP] 2 [/SUP]Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
Why Sunday? The N.T. does not say other than the hint of the reason of it being the Lord's day when He had risen.
The disciples did ministry outreach on the sabbath day by going to the synagogues to talk with the Jews. That was not when nor where they held christian worship services. Try getting away with that in a Jewish synagogue today.
Anyway, because of Jesus Christ being in you is why you are blameless for not keeping the sabbath day. Jesus spoke about this in Matthew 12:1-8 by citing two examples in the O.T. where saints had profaned the sabbath day but were blameless because they were in the Temple and then He pointed out that One greater than the temple was here, namely Himself as to why His disciples were blameless for gathering corn in a field to eat on the sabbath day, because He was with them.
Matthew 12:1At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.[SUP] 2 [/SUP]But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.[SUP] 3 [/SUP]But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;[SUP] 4 [/SUP]How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?[SUP] 5 [/SUP]Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?[SUP] 6 [/SUP]But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.[SUP] 7 [/SUP]But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.[SUP] 8 [/SUP]For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
If you wish to honor the Lord on Saturday, you can, but do not worry about trying to keep it as a holy day because Jesus Christ is in you and that is why you and I are blameless for not keeping the sabbath day holy and you can honor Him any and every day of the week if you want.
1 Corinthians 6:[SUP]19 [/SUP]What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?[SUP] 20 [/SUP]For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
Matthew 28:[SUP]18 [/SUP]And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth........30....... and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen..
How is that for the Good News in Christ?
Romans 14:[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.[SUP] 5 [/SUP]One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.[SUP] 6 [/SUP]He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.[SUP] 7 [/SUP]For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.[SUP]8 [/SUP]For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
The church did their collection on a Sunday when they held church services.
1 Corinthians 16:1Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.[SUP] 2 [/SUP]Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
Why Sunday? The N.T. does not say other than the hint of the reason of it being the Lord's day when He had risen.
The disciples did ministry outreach on the sabbath day by going to the synagogues to talk with the Jews. That was not when nor where they held christian worship services. Try getting away with that in a Jewish synagogue today.
Anyway, because of Jesus Christ being in you is why you are blameless for not keeping the sabbath day. Jesus spoke about this in Matthew 12:1-8 by citing two examples in the O.T. where saints had profaned the sabbath day but were blameless because they were in the Temple and then He pointed out that One greater than the temple was here, namely Himself as to why His disciples were blameless for gathering corn in a field to eat on the sabbath day, because He was with them.
Matthew 12:1At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.[SUP] 2 [/SUP]But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.[SUP] 3 [/SUP]But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;[SUP] 4 [/SUP]How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?[SUP] 5 [/SUP]Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?[SUP] 6 [/SUP]But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.[SUP] 7 [/SUP]But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.[SUP] 8 [/SUP]For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
If you wish to honor the Lord on Saturday, you can, but do not worry about trying to keep it as a holy day because Jesus Christ is in you and that is why you and I are blameless for not keeping the sabbath day holy and you can honor Him any and every day of the week if you want.
1 Corinthians 6:[SUP]19 [/SUP]What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?[SUP] 20 [/SUP]For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
Matthew 28:[SUP]18 [/SUP]And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth........30....... and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen..
How is that for the Good News in Christ?
Romans 14:[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.[SUP] 5 [/SUP]One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.[SUP] 6 [/SUP]He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.[SUP] 7 [/SUP]For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.[SUP]8 [/SUP]For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
May I just take you up on 1Cor 16....that was not a collection/offering at a church service but a collection of GOODS for the starving Saints at Jerusalem where there was a shortage of FOOD....and Paul along with other men would collect the 'fruit/produce...nuts,grain ect,that had been gathered and put aside on the first day of the week(work day) for collection and shipment Rom15v25-28.
Collection of goods was always done on the first day of the week, even before Yeshua. You see it a violation of the Law to work on the Sabbath. Even tithes were not collected on Sabbath, if a person did give tithes on Sabbath they went into a vase type collection jar. Then on the first day were picked up and counted.
If it doesn't say that should be a hint of it not being His will.
Luk 6:5 And Jesus added, “The Son of Man is Lord, even over the Sabbath.”
Thye Idea that He is now Lord of SUNDAY is a bit misplaced. As it is made clear here that He is Lord even over the Sabbath. This should be seen to mean i
He changed it at His death, as it was Him speaking, and He was still walking this earth.
Please show me just one passage that if left in context, backs what you said. As for doing a chistian service in a Synagogue,
Act 13:14 But Paul and Barnabas traveled inland to Antioch of Pisidia.[fn] On the Sabbath they went to the synagogue for the services.
Act 14:1 The same thing happened in Iconium. Paul and Barnabas went to the Jewish synagogue and preached with such power that a great number of both Jews and Greeks became believers.
Act 17:2 As was Paul's custom, he went to the synagogue service, and for three Sabbaths in a row he used the Scriptures to reason with the people.
Act 18:4 Each Sabbath found Paul at the synagogue, trying to convince the Jews and Greeks alike.
So just what is a synagogue? In the first century, it was nothing more than a building, any would work. When they could they would use one close to a river, for ease in baptize. Anyone that wanted to find one is a new city or one they were just visiting, would simply follow the river to the meeting house.
Mat 12:7 But you would not have condemned my innocent disciples if you knew the meaning of this Scripture: ‘I want you to show mercy, not offer sacrifices.’
The full meaning of this passage can found here. As you can see, Yeshua didn't say, "They are with me so it's all good. Also one must understand that the full meaning of Torah is found here as well. Without a full class on the Torah, (as most wouldn't read it anyway) I will just say. The Torah places the Sanctity of Human life over almost all of it's Laws. Being with Yeshua was that much more reason to hold to the Sabbath. I am really starting to think a class on just what the sabbath really is may be in order. As it does seem that it is a badly misunderstood concept.
Matthew 12:1At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.[SUP] 2 [/SUP]But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.[SUP] 3 [/SUP]But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;[SUP] 4 [/SUP]How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?[SUP] 5 [/SUP]Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?[SUP] 6 [/SUP]But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.[SUP] 7 [/SUP]But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.[SUP] 8 [/SUP]For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
That doesn't however show that we don't need to keep the Sabbath Holy. Of all the Laws in the Torah, there is only ONE the starts with the word REMEMBER.
Exo 20:8 “Remember to observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.
Well ok 2 if you want the truth. You won't like the last one. And I will ask that you please tell me how it doesn't mean what it is saying.
Exo 12:24 “Remember, these instructions are a permanent law that you and your descendants must observe forever.
Hay HaShem used 2 words here, permanent, and forever. I do think from this we can say that He really meant it.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.
Nice, Now let me ask, what does the Bible say about any that don't keep the day? Just so you know, THE DAY, is the Sabbath.
Also can you please me a full understanding of this passage, using nothing but the Word?
If it doesn't say that should be a hint of it not being His will.
Luk 6:5 And Jesus added, “The Son of Man is Lord, even over the Sabbath.”
Thye Idea that He is now Lord of SUNDAY is a bit misplaced. As it is made clear here that He is Lord even over the Sabbath. This should be seen to mean i
He changed it at His death, as it was Him speaking, and He was still walking this earth.
Please show me just one passage that if left in context, backs what you said. As for doing a chistian service in a Synagogue,
Act 13:14 But Paul and Barnabas traveled inland to Antioch of Pisidia.[fn] On the Sabbath they went to the synagogue for the services.
Act 14:1 The same thing happened in Iconium. Paul and Barnabas went to the Jewish synagogue and preached with such power that a great number of both Jews and Greeks became believers.
Act 17:2 As was Paul's custom, he went to the synagogue service, and for three Sabbaths in a row he used the Scriptures to reason with the people.
Act 18:4 Each Sabbath found Paul at the synagogue, trying to convince the Jews and Greeks alike.
So just what is a synagogue? In the first century, it was nothing more than a building, any would work. When they could they would use one close to a river, for ease in baptize. Anyone that wanted to find one is a new city or one they were just visiting, would simply follow the river to the meeting house.
Mat 12:7 But you would not have condemned my innocent disciples if you knew the meaning of this Scripture: ‘I want you to show mercy, not offer sacrifices.’
The full meaning of this passage can found here. As you can see, Yeshua didn't say, "They are with me so it's all good. Also one must understand that the full meaning of Torah is found here as well. Without a full class on the Torah, (as most wouldn't read it anyway) I will just say. The Torah places the Sanctity of Human life over almost all of it's Laws. Being with Yeshua was that much more reason to hold to the Sabbath. I am really starting to think a class on just what the sabbath really is may be in order. As it does seem that it is a badly misunderstood concept.
Matthew 12:1At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.[SUP] 2 [/SUP]But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.[SUP] 3 [/SUP]But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;[SUP] 4 [/SUP]How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?[SUP] 5 [/SUP]Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?[SUP] 6 [/SUP]But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.[SUP] 7 [/SUP]But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.[SUP] 8 [/SUP]For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
That doesn't however show that we don't need to keep the Sabbath Holy. Of all the Laws in the Torah, there is only ONE the starts with the word REMEMBER.
Exo 20:8 “Remember to observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.
Well ok 2 if you want the truth. You won't like the last one. And I will ask that you please tell me how it doesn't mean what it is saying.
Exo 12:24 “Remember, these instructions are a permanent law that you and your descendants must observe forever.
Hay HaShem used 2 words here, permanent, and forever. I do think from this we can say that He really meant it.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.
Nice, Now let me ask, what does the Bible say about any that don't keep the day? Just so you know, THE DAY, is the Sabbath.
Also can you please me a full understanding of this passage, using nothing but the Word?
That may be true for what they were doing in Romans 15:25-28 but not for 1 Corinthians 16:1-2
1 Corinthians 16:1 Corinthians 16:1Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.[SUP] 2 [/SUP]Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.[SUP]3 [/SUP]And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.[SUP] 4 [/SUP]And if it be meet that I go also, they shall go with me.[SUP] 5 [/SUP]Now I will come unto you, when I shall pass through Macedonia: for I do pass through Macedonia.[SUP]6 [/SUP]And it may be that I will abide, yea, and winter with you, that ye may bring me on my journey whithersoever I go.
Verse 3 is about that church approving by letters whom they wish to send as missionaries to Jerusalem, but Paul points out the chance that he may stay with them for the winter.
This was the collection for the saints as an order given to the churches as there was to be no special collection when Paul came for his portion as a missionary. In other words, from the regular collection on the first day of the week, they were to set a side a portion from that bounty collected for the support of missionaries like Paul so that there be no special collection just for that purpose. By taking a portion from the collected bounty, it prevents the appearance of covetousness.
That point is made clearer here as Paul pointed out the boasting of the Corinthians of their givings in supporting the saints in the ministry in the second letter to the Church at Corinth;
2 Corinthians 9:1 For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you:[SUP]2 [/SUP]For I know the forwardness of your mind, for which I boast of you to them of Macedonia, that Achaia was ready a year ago; and your zeal hath provoked very many.[SUP] 3 [/SUP]Yet have I sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this behalf; that, as I said, ye may be ready:[SUP] 4 [/SUP]Lest haply if they of Macedonia come with me, and find you unprepared, we (that we say not, ye) should be ashamed in this same confident boasting.[SUP]5 [/SUP]Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as a matter of bounty, and not as of covetousness.
I only referenced 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 for the point of the collection for the saints as this order was given out to all the churches to do was on the first day of the week.
I acknowledged what you were saying about Romans 15:25-28, but that does not negate that collection during a church service was held on the first day of the week as an order given out to all the churches where they were to set aside as a portion from that bounty to support missionaries in the field.. and yes.. even to give necessities to meet the needs of the poor in Jerusalem should they go there.
Thank you for sharing.
1 Corinthians 16:1 Corinthians 16:1Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.[SUP] 2 [/SUP]Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.[SUP]3 [/SUP]And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.[SUP] 4 [/SUP]And if it be meet that I go also, they shall go with me.[SUP] 5 [/SUP]Now I will come unto you, when I shall pass through Macedonia: for I do pass through Macedonia.[SUP]6 [/SUP]And it may be that I will abide, yea, and winter with you, that ye may bring me on my journey whithersoever I go.
Verse 3 is about that church approving by letters whom they wish to send as missionaries to Jerusalem, but Paul points out the chance that he may stay with them for the winter.
This was the collection for the saints as an order given to the churches as there was to be no special collection when Paul came for his portion as a missionary. In other words, from the regular collection on the first day of the week, they were to set a side a portion from that bounty collected for the support of missionaries like Paul so that there be no special collection just for that purpose. By taking a portion from the collected bounty, it prevents the appearance of covetousness.
That point is made clearer here as Paul pointed out the boasting of the Corinthians of their givings in supporting the saints in the ministry in the second letter to the Church at Corinth;
2 Corinthians 9:1 For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you:[SUP]2 [/SUP]For I know the forwardness of your mind, for which I boast of you to them of Macedonia, that Achaia was ready a year ago; and your zeal hath provoked very many.[SUP] 3 [/SUP]Yet have I sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this behalf; that, as I said, ye may be ready:[SUP] 4 [/SUP]Lest haply if they of Macedonia come with me, and find you unprepared, we (that we say not, ye) should be ashamed in this same confident boasting.[SUP]5 [/SUP]Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as a matter of bounty, and not as of covetousness.
I only referenced 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 for the point of the collection for the saints as this order was given out to all the churches to do was on the first day of the week.
I acknowledged what you were saying about Romans 15:25-28, but that does not negate that collection during a church service was held on the first day of the week as an order given out to all the churches where they were to set aside as a portion from that bounty to support missionaries in the field.. and yes.. even to give necessities to meet the needs of the poor in Jerusalem should they go there.
Thank you for sharing.
So what you're saying is you don't know what salvation is? What I mean is if you are in Messiah like you claim there would be no condemnation in the law because it is of the spirit of God. Because you have found condemnation and a curse for keeping the moral law having it written on your heart you have at least not understood what Messiah died for namely that he has freed us from sin and death. If you want to follow Messiah and have life follow his way out of love. Never has there been such confused believers of Messiah as today. Don't you know you keep the law at least in part? By your own word you have shown you don't have trust in God because you neglect his appointed times.
I think I got that, so please help me out if I missed it. Here is what I got from that.
If we don't keep His feast, then we show no trust in HaShem. Yet at the same time, if we do keep any part of the law we also show no trust?
I am almost 100% sure i am missing something here, yet that is how that reads to me.
If we don't keep His feast, then we show no trust in HaShem. Yet at the same time, if we do keep any part of the law we also show no trust?
I am almost 100% sure i am missing something here, yet that is how that reads to me.
Im sure you are getting me.. Maybe it's simpler than we think. I've been trying to act in love. If I try does that make it not love because my ability to love is not of myself. The whole idea that I can have the benefit of the covenant but not also receive the gift of the Sabbath day that the true assembly of Elohim and Messiah are sealed with. Because we confirm the law of Elohim if we are in Messiah and continue in it not because we live because of the law but because we are saved and now love God. If we say we love him and keep not the command we don't love him...
Galatians 3:10-12
[FONT="]10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.[/FONT]
[FONT="]11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
If you look to the OT and see laws that you think you have to do, you are working at them.
Working at the law is not spiritual. It is carnal.
Are you so foolish? Having begun in the spirit are you perfected by the flesh?
No you are not perfected by the flesh. You have put yourself back under the curse by your understanding of working at the law.
Why would you place yourself back under the law and its curse?
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
You failed to heed this message.
[/FONT]
[FONT="]10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.[/FONT]
[FONT="]11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
If you look to the OT and see laws that you think you have to do, you are working at them.
Working at the law is not spiritual. It is carnal.
Are you so foolish? Having begun in the spirit are you perfected by the flesh?
No you are not perfected by the flesh. You have put yourself back under the curse by your understanding of working at the law.
Why would you place yourself back under the law and its curse?
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
You failed to heed this message.
[/FONT]