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Hi Joshie, this thread doesn't belong in the news section it belongs more in the bible discussion forum but personally I recommend doing it in the misc. section as in the bible discussion forum you will not get hardly any discussion mainly just butt loads of fiery responses and arguments. I actually have been doing some research on this event and would love to discuss it with you if you want to on a thread in the misc. section, my findings aren't a whole lot as time has been a bit slim for me but I did find some interesting things to consider
B
I doubt it happens in the next breath, because the Bible says we don't know the day or hour of His return, but he didn't say we cannot know the season. In fact, Jesus said we can know the season, and it won't be a million years from now. Finally, 2 Thes. 2 tells us it won't happen in the next breath, because certain things have to happen first. Look it up and find out what they are.
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If you are saved through the finished work of Christ why be concerned about the stars? In any case where does it say in the Bible that some particular interstellar configuration is anything to do with the rapture? I dont believe in a Pre Trib Rapture in any case. Anyone with some knowledge of the history of this teaching wouldn't either.
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B
Even someone without historical knowledge shouldn't fall for the pretrib teaching if they just take the Scripture at face value. People that judge the Scripture by what teachers say rather than judge the teaching by what the Scriptures say fall for the false doctrine surrounding the rapture. The catching away will happen as Paul describes in 2 Thes. 2 and as Jesus said in Mat. 24.
Remember that religion is one of Satan’s hidden dynasties. He loves to plant false doctrines, which twist Scripture, in Christian churches.
If you believe the rapture, you may find yourself among the following group of deceived Christians when Christ returns.
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. Revelation 6:16
The above folks are so ashamed because they’ve been worshiping the wrong Christ.
It seems that the rapture people have forgotten how to count. The think the 7th trump comes before 6th ... that the real Christ comes before the false one comes. Christ returns at the 7th trump, not the 6th trump;
At the 6th seal, 6th trump, 6th vial (666), Michael will boot Satan, playing his role as the Antichrist (instead of Christ in the Greek), from heaven to earth (Revelation Chapter 12:6-9). Keep in mind that Revelation is a Prophetic book making the word SAW into the futuristic word "will" fall etc.
Christ also gave you all 7 seals & trumps in Mark 13, Luke 21, and Matthew 24. Have you read them with understanding?
So, from where then did the false rapture doctrine come?
Before 1830, you can find no mention of the Rapture Doctrine. That alone ought to send up a red flag. In fact, the word "rapture" is not in the Bible. So, where did this false doctrine come from? In 1830, Margaret MacDonald had an evil revelation on her sick bed, supposedly from God, in which she was shown what would become "The Rapture Of The Church", among other names.
And, from The Incredible Cover-up by Dave Macpherson, Appendix A, you'll read:
"I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light." - Margaret MacDonald (Spring of 1830)
MacDonald's revelation would have probably died with her; however, two preachers grabbed it, cleaned it up, and presented it to Christendom. Today, you'll hear many pastors promoting that false doctrine from pulpits.
If you believe the rapture, you may find yourself among the following group of deceived Christians when Christ returns.
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. Revelation 6:16
The above folks are so ashamed because they’ve been worshiping the wrong Christ.
It seems that the rapture people have forgotten how to count. The think the 7th trump comes before 6th ... that the real Christ comes before the false one comes. Christ returns at the 7th trump, not the 6th trump;
At the 6th seal, 6th trump, 6th vial (666), Michael will boot Satan, playing his role as the Antichrist (instead of Christ in the Greek), from heaven to earth (Revelation Chapter 12:6-9). Keep in mind that Revelation is a Prophetic book making the word SAW into the futuristic word "will" fall etc.
Christ also gave you all 7 seals & trumps in Mark 13, Luke 21, and Matthew 24. Have you read them with understanding?
So, from where then did the false rapture doctrine come?
Before 1830, you can find no mention of the Rapture Doctrine. That alone ought to send up a red flag. In fact, the word "rapture" is not in the Bible. So, where did this false doctrine come from? In 1830, Margaret MacDonald had an evil revelation on her sick bed, supposedly from God, in which she was shown what would become "The Rapture Of The Church", among other names.
And, from The Incredible Cover-up by Dave Macpherson, Appendix A, you'll read:
"I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light." - Margaret MacDonald (Spring of 1830)
MacDonald's revelation would have probably died with her; however, two preachers grabbed it, cleaned it up, and presented it to Christendom. Today, you'll hear many pastors promoting that false doctrine from pulpits.
Hello earstohear,
Regarding the gathering of the church (rapture) the 7th trumpet has nothing to do with it. The on-going error is that because Paul refers to the "last trumpet" in 1 Cor.15:52, people have erroneously interpreted the 7th trumpet as the "last trumpet" and only because it is the last trumpet in that set.
The major problem with this right off the bat, is that if the church was to be gathered at the 7th trumpet it would put the living church through all of the seals and trumpets judgments which are the wrath of God, which believers are not appointed to suffer.
The second issue is that, there is nothing in the context in or around the 7th trumpet that refers to the gathering of the church.
And third, the like the seals and bowls, the trumpets are judgments of wrath and there are no blessings associated with them.
Therefore, the problem stems from the assumption that the 7th trumpet is the "last trumpet" when the only thing that these two have in common is the word "trumpet" and that's it. The fact is that there many different types of trumpets mentioned in scripture.
The problem with this is that the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments run in chronological order and not parallel as you have above. That said, Satan and his angels are cast out at the sounding of the 7th trumpet, which is also the third woe. Also, Satan is not going to play the part of the antichrist, it will be the beast, that angel who comes up from the Abyss, who will empower the antichirst.
The above has been done to death and you are just repeating what you have heard. I have never read anything by Margaret or Scofield or Darby. My conclusion on when the gathering of the church takes place is based on the cross-referencing and comparing of scripture via the teaching of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, that whole claim is false because it would require an expositor to adopt their teachings and to become a follower of them.
Regarding the gathering of the church (rapture) the 7th trumpet has nothing to do with it. The on-going error is that because Paul refers to the "last trumpet" in 1 Cor.15:52, people have erroneously interpreted the 7th trumpet as the "last trumpet" and only because it is the last trumpet in that set.
The major problem with this right off the bat, is that if the church was to be gathered at the 7th trumpet it would put the living church through all of the seals and trumpets judgments which are the wrath of God, which believers are not appointed to suffer.
The second issue is that, there is nothing in the context in or around the 7th trumpet that refers to the gathering of the church.
And third, the like the seals and bowls, the trumpets are judgments of wrath and there are no blessings associated with them.
Therefore, the problem stems from the assumption that the 7th trumpet is the "last trumpet" when the only thing that these two have in common is the word "trumpet" and that's it. The fact is that there many different types of trumpets mentioned in scripture.
The problem with this is that the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments run in chronological order and not parallel as you have above. That said, Satan and his angels are cast out at the sounding of the 7th trumpet, which is also the third woe. Also, Satan is not going to play the part of the antichrist, it will be the beast, that angel who comes up from the Abyss, who will empower the antichirst.
The above has been done to death and you are just repeating what you have heard. I have never read anything by Margaret or Scofield or Darby. My conclusion on when the gathering of the church takes place is based on the cross-referencing and comparing of scripture via the teaching of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, that whole claim is false because it would require an expositor to adopt their teachings and to become a follower of them.
Hello BurningLight,
Therein lies the problem. Matt.24:30-31 is not the gathering of the church. These verse are referring to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. When the Lord sends His angels out, that is not the gathering of the church. According to the parable in Matt.13 of the weeds and wheat, the angels will first be gathering the weeds and then the wheat. These will be those who will have made it alive through the entire seven years until Christ returns. Those that the angels will be gathering will be the surviving great tribulation saints. They along with the survivors of Israel, will be those who will repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom.
The bottom line is that 2 Thes.2 is speaking about the gathering of the church, where Matt.24:30-31 is speaking in regards to the Lord's return to end the age, which are two separate events.
By the way, the church will never see the antichrist.
Therein lies the problem. Matt.24:30-31 is not the gathering of the church. These verse are referring to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. When the Lord sends His angels out, that is not the gathering of the church. According to the parable in Matt.13 of the weeds and wheat, the angels will first be gathering the weeds and then the wheat. These will be those who will have made it alive through the entire seven years until Christ returns. Those that the angels will be gathering will be the surviving great tribulation saints. They along with the survivors of Israel, will be those who will repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom.
The bottom line is that 2 Thes.2 is speaking about the gathering of the church, where Matt.24:30-31 is speaking in regards to the Lord's return to end the age, which are two separate events.
By the way, the church will never see the antichrist.