Not By Works

[Ariel82]

Ariel, there are a couple of points I'd be willing to discuss, but they aren't terribly important to salvation.

Here's something you said that is.

I do believe a person can lose their salvation in the same way the gain it...
By losing faith and not trusting in Jesus.

YOU said above that God continues to walk with them and reason with them until they come back.

I also believe this. And most do come back. Some don't.

Here's the problem with teaching eternal security. It doesn't make people understand the danger of losing faith.
It doesn't make them understand how important it is to stay close to Jesus and hang on to Him. It makes it seem like it's OK to leave because God will still be with them.

This is not true. God and non-faith in Him cannot co-exist.

You said that the person can come back.
True.

But what if they die BEFORE they could come back?
You see, it's very important to teach that faith must be continuous and not abandoned.

A person does not know when their day will come.
Jesus said to be ready for we know not the day.
He meant the end of time, but for the person that dies, it IS the end of time.

I believe it's important to walk with God.

I believe what we don't agree about is that the Holy spirit seals all born again believers....but let me read G777 post.

I skimmed it but when held next to the article you posted, His post does seem to have some trigger words in it and folks love shootin their guns.

I don't know if we agree what "sealed with the Holy spirit" means or not. Brb,

 

[Ariel82]

Those reading along will see that you refuse to answer my question.

I don't blame you BTW.

it would not be to your advantage.

He did answer. He just didn't fill in the bubbles in the form you wanted him to for you.

He said that "believe" means "trusting in Jesus"

Do you disagree?

...lol okay you agree it is trusting in Jesus but also that believe means obeying and doing apparently.

I have to disagree...believe is trusting in Jesus. We do add to that faith but faith is not doing but trusting.

 

[FranC]

Fran - I don't fall for your constant "baiting" techniques. There were some on here in CC before you came that were experts in that area so we have been well-trained in these tactics.


I know you don't "like" the answer people give you because it conflicts with your religious beliefs and I understand that part and so you refuse to accept their answers. You are entitled to have your own opinion...

Have a great day! Bless you.

I HONESTLY don't now what a baiting technique is.

I'm telling you that you never answer what believe means because you know very well that it means that you are to FOLLOW and TRUST AND DO as the person you believe in TEACHES YOU.

This would admit that we are to do what Jesus TAUGHT US.
Believing does not mean only to believe with the mind, it means to DO.

If I BELIEVE an elevator will take me to the top floor, it means I will STEP INTO the elevator. I TRUST the elevaator and do what I must do to get to the top.

If we BELIEVE in jesus, we are to ACT on that BELIEF.

So, I answered it for you.

WE ARE TO ACT ON THE BELIEF, IF WE BELIEVE.

IT IS NOT A CHOICE.

Just reading the book of Mathew, or any book, will prove this.

Salvation is NOT a one time event.
You get saved ONCE, but you must CONTINUE in that salvation ALL YOUR LIFE.
This is called SANCTIFICATION.

A cooperative work between you and God.

God did HIS part.
Now YOU do your part and BELIEVE in Him.

 

[stillness]

believing: implies to follow what you believe and can be summed up in Faith that works by Love, both are gifts of God.
Wen the disciples asked Jesus to increase their faith He made it clear that a small amount of faith was enough. He did not explained at the time to involve the Holy Spirit as the Holy spirit was not yet given. He said "I can do nothing of Myself except what I see the Father doing," Making it clear that as a man He remained in agreement with God and that we are to follow Him and to count the cost of loosing our life of pleasures of sin... I only meant to write 2 sentences.

 

[FranC]

believing: implies to follow what you believe and can be summed up in Faith that works by Love, both are gifts of God.
Wen the disciples asked Jesus to increase their faith He made it clear that a small amount of faith was enough. He did not explained at the time to involve the Holy Spirit as the Holy spirit was not yet given. He said "I can do nothing of Myself except what I see the Father doing," Making it clear that as a man He remained in agreement with God and that we are to follow Him and to count the cost of loosing our life of pleasures of sin... I only meant to write 2 sentences.

Welcome to CC.

Of course a small amount of faith is enough. The faith of a mustard seed can move mountains.
Faith is faith.

But do you believe good works follow our salvation, or do you believe they are not necessary?
Does God demand that we obey Him or not?

(you could write all the sentences you want to!)

 

[PHart]

I'm new to this forum, and unless there is some easier way to find posts I am to respond to from the last two days I'm going to have to sift through a lot of stuff to find them, so it'll take some time. But in all these posts has anyone been able to reasonably explain why what James says below is not true?

James 2:14,24 NASB
"if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?.
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

So many people keep repeating that you do not need to be justified by works because you are saved without and despite them. So what was James talking about then? Nobody on the 'you don't need works to be saved' side has given a reasonable explanation that reconciles James with Paul. They just keep saying even works-less believers are saved even though that directly contradicts James who makes it plain that faith without works can not save. And they seem incapable of understanding that works being required in a saved person doesn't have to mean those works earn you salvation. They're stuck in the rut that works being required in salvation can ONLY mean those works somehow earn salvation. No, it doesn't.

 

[FranC]

He did answer. He just didn't fill in the bubbles in the form you wanted him to for you.

He said that "believe" means "trusting in Jesus"

Do you disagree?

...lol okay you agree it is trusting in Jesus but also that believe means obeying and doing apparently.

I have to disagree...believe is trusting in Jesus. We do add to that faith but faith is not doing but trusting.

Faith requires action.
No action.... No faith.

If you don't get on that elevator, it means you have no faith in it.

Do a study on the word BELIEVE.
Really. I don't mean this in a demeaning way.
I know what it is to teach kids and I respect you for it.
it really is very important to understand BELIEVE.
especially with all the Greek scholars we have here and not a one will just plainl say what it means but just dance around it explaining everything else but that.

 

[Ariel82]

Hmmm....G777 what do you mean by this part of your post?

As I have said before - we can get messed up in our minds but in our new creation - the inner man of the heart where Christ dwells by the Holy Spirit - we are safe in Christ forever.

What happens when we sin?

How exactly are we safe in Christ forever?

How do you confront someone who is claiming to be in Christ but living a sinful lifestyle?

 

[Grace777x70]

I'm new to this forum, and unless there is some easier way to find posts I am to respond to from the last two days I'm going to have to sift through a lot of stuff to find them, so it'll take some time. But in all these posts has anyone been able to reasonably explain why what James says below is not true?

James 2:14,24 NASB
"if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?.
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

So many people keep repeating that you do not need to be justified by works because you are saved without and despite them. So what was James talking about then? Nobody on the 'you don't need works to be saved' side has given a reasonable explanation that reconciles James with Paul. They just keep saying even works-less believers are saved even though that directly contradicts James who makes it plain that faith without works can not save. And they seem incapable of understanding that works being required in a saved person doesn't have to mean those works earn you salvation. They're stuck in the rut that works being required in salvation can ONLY mean those works somehow earn salvation. No, it doesn't.

This has been answered many times and in different ways. In relation to being saved for eternity and having Christ in us and receiving the grace of God in Christ and the gift of righteousness. - this has been written many times.

True faith will have a corresponding action of some kind. Let's look at what James says about faith & it's corresponding "work" in relation to having eternal life now and forever because we heard the message of Christ and believed on Him - then we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Eph. 1:13

It is very interesting that in James's examples of faith "being made alive" by a work or a corresponding action. Both Rahab and Abraham each did a one time corresponding action to demonstrate their faith.

Abraham believed God and offered up Isaac on the alter. Rahab received the spies. Both one time events in their life - God calls this faith in action.


James 2:20-25 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

[SUP]21 [/SUP] Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

[SUP]22[/SUP]You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

[SUP]23 [/SUP] and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.

[SUP]24 [/SUP] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[SUP]25 [/SUP] In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

Paul and James completely go together and do not cancel each other out nor contradict the basic truth of believing in Christ brings eternal life when we hear the true message of Christ's work and that we have the forgiveness of sins.

We do the very same thing when we hear the message of Christ and we believe and then God seals us with the Holy Spirit. This is our faith with a corresponding action or a "work".

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Jesus said to do the work of God was to believe in the Son.

Romans 10:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

[SUP]10[/SUP]for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

This is faith with corresponding action - or a work. This is how we are saved by grace through faith just like Paul said.

James talk about "faith" and "works" is in relation to helping out our fellow man that is in need.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Works DO NOT save us.

Works DO NOT KEEP us saved.

Grace through faith, and belief in Jesus Christ keeps us saved.

Works ARE NOT NECESSARY to gain salvation. They ARE only necessary for us to do, to show God's love to others and be obedient to Him.

 

[FranC]

I'm new to this forum, and unless there is some easier way to find posts I am to respond to from the last two days I'm going to have to sift through a lot of stuff to find them, so it'll take some time. But in all these posts has anyone been able to reasonably explain why what James says below is not true?

James 2:14,24 NASB
"if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?.
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

So many people keep repeating that you do not need to be justified by works because you are saved without and despite them. So what was James talking about then? Nobody on the 'you don't need works to be saved' side has given a reasonable explanation that reconciles James with Paul. They just keep saying even works-less believers are saved even though that directly contradicts James who makes it plain that faith without works can not save. And they seem incapable of understanding that works being required in a saved person doesn't have to mean those works earn you salvation. They're stuck in the rut that works being required in salvation can ONLY mean those works somehow earn salvation. No, it doesn't.

Hi PHart,

There is no way on this forum for a person to be advised when they have received an answer. No "quoted" feature.
Under "settings" you find responses to threads you're posting to, but no way to know if they're to you.

Those that insist that works are not required, continue to do so.
I'd like to say that if one just reads the N.T., with no pre-conceived ideas, they would come away understanding that God requires we obey all His commandments.

They would not even understand salvation the way it's understood today. Salvation is from sin, from satan, from eternal Death.

Anyway, I'm off to the land of Marble - Carrara.
Nothing exciting. An errand.

Will check in later.
I wish you good luck !

 

[Grace777x70]

I'm new to this forum, and unless there is some easier way to find posts I am to respond to from the last two days I'm going to have to sift through a lot of stuff to find them, so it'll take some time. But in all these posts has anyone been able to reasonably explain why what James says below is not true?

James 2:14,24 NASB
"if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?.
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

So many people keep repeating that you do not need to be justified by works because you are saved without and despite them. So what was James talking about then? Nobody on the 'you don't need works to be saved' side has given a reasonable explanation that reconciles James with Paul. They just keep saying even works-less believers are saved even though that directly contradicts James who makes it plain that faith without works can not save. And they seem incapable of understanding that works being required in a saved person doesn't have to mean those works earn you salvation. They're stuck in the rut that works being required in salvation can ONLY mean those works somehow earn salvation. No, it doesn't.

An interesting fact about Abraham being declared righteous by God Himself is that he was declared to be righteous by God because Abraham "believed God " - 15 years before he "offered up Isaac".

His faith was completed as a result of already being declared righteous by God. Knowing the truth about what God says about us releases true faith to grow and be manifested. There is a false way of trying to create works in order to create and maintain righteousness. This is eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

True righteousness which comes only from God's work in Christ always comes when we believe what God says is true. There are "fruits of righteousness" as James talks about which shows up in helping our fellow man in need but they do not create righteousness.

Being righteous in Christ comes first because of His work on the cross and resurrection. Getting this backwards creates a religion of self-righteousness and actually denies the work of Christ Himself.

Preach and teach the good news that Christ alone is our righteousness and then the fruit of His life will be manifested in "deeds of righteousness" as He bears His fruit in and through us to a hurt and dying world that needs to see the love and grace that our loving Father has for them.

We will see corresponding action or works that glorify God.

 

[stillness]

I'm new to this forum, and unless there is some easier way to find posts I am to respond to from the last two days I'm going to have to sift through a lot of stuff to find them, so it'll take some time. But in all these posts has anyone been able to reasonably explain why what James says below is not true?

James 2:14,24 NASB
"if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?.
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

So many people keep repeating that you do not need to be justified by works because you are saved without and despite them. So what was James talking about then? Nobody on the 'you don't need works to be saved' side has given a reasonable explanation that reconciles James with Paul. They just keep saying even works-less believers are saved even though that directly contradicts James who makes it plain that faith without works can not save. And they seem incapable of understanding that works being required in a saved person doesn't have to mean those works earn you salvation. They're stuck in the rut that works being required in salvation can ONLY mean those works somehow earn salvation. No, it doesn't.

I gave the answer in my reply Faith works by Love: God is Love and we cant ascribe the work to ourselves, even Jesus sais "I can do nothing of Myself except what I see the Father doing."

 

[Ariel82]

Faith requires action.
No action.... No faith.

If you don't get on that elevator, it means you have no faith in it.

Do a study on the word BELIEVE.
Really. I don't mean this in a demeaning way.
I know what it is to teach kids and I respect you for it.
it really is very important to understand BELIEVE.
especially with all the Greek scholars we have here and not a one will just plainl say what it means but just dance around it explaining everything else but that.

I don't need to redefine the word believe to teach the concepts you are attempting to insert into the word.

I just have to teach upon these verses.

Bible > ESV > 2 Peter 1
◄ 2 Peter 1 ►

3His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us toc his own glory and excellence,d 4by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.

5For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue,e and virtue with knowledge, 6and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8For if these qualitiesf are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. 10Therefore, brothers,g be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.

1. God has given us ALL we need to live godly lives already.
2. Our Christian walk/life only begins with faith and ends with (we are mature when we gain) agape love....the ability to love and bless even our enemies as God loves the world so much He sent Jesus to die and redeem us.

There is no need to redefine faith or the word believe.

When I say to my child "I love you, do you believe me?" do I expect my child to prove anything to me or accept that what I say is true and trust me?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What?
You mean you confess your sins to everybody?

yes. This is what the catholic, or universal, Church used to do right after Jesus' resurrection and ascension.

Did I understand???
I can hardly believe it.

The bible tells us to confess our sins to each other.

Why is it hard for you to believe?

 

[Ariel82]

I gave the answer in my reply Faith works by Love: God is Love and we cant ascribe the work to ourselves, even Jesus sais "I can do nothing of Myself except what I see the Father doing."

And I said that good works are done for the benefit of others for God's glory and that good fruit is not the same as good works, but doubt that will matter to some. Since it doesn't fit their boxes.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You refuse to use scripture...

See what I mean, You do the very thing you judge others of doing, You keep doing this, and wonder why people keep calling you out for it.

Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull

[SUP]3 [/SUP]For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. [SUP]4 [/SUP]But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, [SUP]5 [/SUP]not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]6 [/SUP]whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, [SUP]7 [/SUP]that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.[SUP]8 [/SUP]This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

The works in vs 8 are not to save us, or maintain salvation, Paul proved that in verse 5.

Paul did not contradict himself.

As you can see, I not only posted scripture. I highlighted the parts which were relevent to back my points.

Here it is:


3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life
.8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

There, I finished highlighting what you missed (you seem to do this all the time, So I guess it is ok to do this.

The works in vs 8 are not to save us, or maintain salvation, Paul proved that in verse 5.

Paul did not contradict himself.

Not by works of righteousness...

YOU are the one who is Always saying that our righteousness is Worth nothing.

You're RIGHT.

These are the WORKS that are OBEDIENCE TO LAW.
They are Worth nothing.
verse 5

Says who? Where is the law even mentioned in the passage? It says works of righteousness, It does not say works of the law. A work of righteousness would be any good deed. Not just works of the law.

BUT we who HAVE believed in God should be careful to MAINTAIN GOOD WORKS.
These are works known as OBEDIENCE OF FAITH.
These are worthy in the eyes of God.

So now you know what the two terms mean.
Does it help you?

No, it does not help me, However, It hurts you, Because you have 1. Added to the word of God (works of the law) and 2, Distorted the meaning of the passage.

A work is a work is a work, Anything done to earn a wage, a reward or anything is a work, We can boast of these things because we earn them.

As apposed to a grace gift given via mercy, which one can not earn, but is given out of love, and expects nothing in return (there is a prime example of what Love is)

vs 5 says not of works of righteousness, but by his mercy, That means ANY WORK, Because if any work (of faith, law or whatever) was required, it would NOT BE BY MERCY but a reward for that particular or those particular works.

WE ARE TO MAINTAIN GOOD WORKS. WE WHO BELIEVE IN GOD.
and we are to be CAREFUL to do this. That sounds like a warning... as he warned many times...

Yeah, And we should head it, But we should not add to the word and say paul is saying or you will lose salvation, He never said that. He said we were SAVED not by works of righteousness which we have done, but by his mercy.

That would include ALL works, not just works of the law. That is a fatal flaw used in parts of the NT church to justify their form of works based salvation which does not include the law.

 

[stillness]

I have a post in Poems and poetry, Journey to enter into rest, that answers the question in an impersonal Way, where we see God working in us and us in agreement with Him. Knowing it's where we should be, to Live in His presence. It's one hour reading. I have worked on this study for a year. The work does not ad to my salvation but makes me more accountable to grow up in Him and to share what I have, as the Love of God compels us. Also entering into God's Labour is not considered work as it's from a place of rest. I think fitting the example of a woman in labour from a place of rest and there is suffering following Christ in His sufferings as well.

 

[Grace777x70]

Hmmm....G777 what do you mean by this part of your post? (1)



As I have said before - we can get messed up in our minds but in our new creation - the inner man of the heart where Christ dwells by the Holy Spirit - we are safe in Christ forever.



What happens when we sin? (2)

How exactly are we safe in Christ forever? (3)

How do you confront someone who is claiming to be in Christ but living a sinful lifestyle? (4)

Good questions: I gave them numbers for easy viewing.

(1) An example of being all messed up in our minds would be this: Someone tells us that God sent someone along to rape our little girl/boy so that He can "teach" you things.

This would cause us in our minds to not trust in such a being that would do that. This would be "mental assent" to the false teaching that says this kind of religious junk. This "could" cause a person to not want to have anything to do with that "god" being portrayed.

But God will be faithful to reveal His true self to them no matter what part of their messed mind and thinking is un-renewed to the truth of His true nature.

(2) When we sin - we give in to the flesh to do "it's" desires. It's through the members of our body that sin has it's action and access in our lives - if we allow it to. Rom. 6:13,19 & Rom. 7:23; Col. 3:5; James 3:6 & 4:1 It means we have been deceived by the deceitfulness of sin and we are living by the works of the flesh.

(3) We are safe in Christ because our inner man which is the new creation in Christ which has been created in righteousness and holiness. The Holy spirit whom Jesus said would be in us forever has sealed us. John 14:16 Eph. 1:13 & Eph. 4:20

All salvation is a work of God Himself in Christ - believing in Jesus's finished work is what gives us access by faith in the grace in which we stand.

(4) First of all - I would make sure they have heard the real gospel of the grace of God in Christ to begin with so that they have the "proper nutrients" to walk free of sinning because the grace of God teaches us how to live godly in this present world.

If they say "It's ok for me to live in this sinning because of the grace of God" - I would tell them that they are not living in that grace. I would tell them that this will bring destruction to them in some form in this earth as all the works of the flesh will do.

Church discipline is to be done by the local leadership and in some cases - they are not to be associated with until there is a change of their way of thinking because it adds the leaven of bad behavior into the midst of the assembly of believers.

The main point for those caught in sinning is Gal. 6:1. The criteria is "you who are spiritual".

Galatians 6:1-2 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted.

[SUP]2[/SUP] Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.

 

[Ariel82]

G777, I have seen you speak of this "inner man" concept but I am not sure what you mean by it.

I know that God has an image of who He is making me into but I also see the reality of who I am now. The inner me is who I am now and the hope is that who am now will not always be but one day I will fully become the person is making me to be.

I don't believe our actions define who we are. Neither our sins or our good works define who we are. Only God and His view of us does.

We should not sin because it muddied the life giving water we are to give to this thirsty world and dims our light.