Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

I clearly explained what "believe" means in post #7388 and I also explained how the Roman Catholic church errors about what "believe" means (they try to "shoe horn" works "into" the definition of believe/faith) and as you can see in post #7396, Fran agrees with Catholicism. - http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/146296-not-works-370.html

Alot of people have explained the difference between true saving faith and mere belief. Yet for some reason we keep getting told by a few that we have yet to do it..

 

[gb9]

Here my friend is your projection. You had faith, believed Christ had saved you, but put the
conditions of sin or good works as a condition of salvation.

Now I know the cross and Christ love, and in faith I am secure in His love. As a response to that
love I desire to walk in righteousness and love, and the fruit of this is good works.

All I have heard is not righteousness, but compromise with sin. This compromise is no sorrow over sin,
no mourning or understanding of the evil and destruction sin creates, no working through every sin
commited and its implications, and no desire to walk righteously, but rather happy to compromise daily
with sinful behaviour. And when talking about morality and law, rather than working through areas
of condemnation and admitting failure, rather ignore and just believe God forgives one in sinful behaviour.

This is just self deception and delusion in behaviour. It is also the definition of easy believism, where
belief saves you and lifestyle is irrelevant.

But this is not the gospel or being a light in the dark world, or victory of sin as demonstrated in the
people of God's lives.

the self-deception and delusion is believing one can be sinless in the flesh. no one can.

 

[mailmandan]

I agree with who is right MMD.

And you and those who believe in eternal security are wrong all around.
Leaving aside the bible, it's plain common sense.

The Roman Catholic church is not right about what "believe" means or about eternal IN-security. Salvation obtained and maintained by works is only common sense "to the natural man." So you agree with what Roman Catholicism teaches about what it means to "believe" because they do not agree with eternal security?

If I return to a life of sin, how could I still be saved?
A life of sin and the Holy Spirit cannot live together in the same space.
As is evidenced in 1 Corinthians, Romans, Mathew, James, Peter, EVERY BOOK IN THE BIBLE.

I never said anything about "believe" and return to a life of sin. To the contrary, we read in 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Yet you seem to be saying, those who are born of God practice sin and lose their salvation. Who should I believe? John or you?

Eternal Security has come about only in the past few hundred years. Christianity has been around for over 2,000 years.

The main topic here is about what it means to "believe" and is not about eternal security.

Does this tell you nothing? You suppose ALL THE THEOLOGIANS before Calvin WERE WRONG?

This idea of not our salvation may comfort you, but it's INCORRECT.

I don't buy into the RCC sales pitch about what everyone before Calvin taught. You seem to be obsessed with the idea of Christians losing their salvation. Why is that? Misery loves company? Prior to my conversion several years ago, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I did not believe in eternal security because I believed that salvation was based on works, yet I am no longer on that roller coaster ride of fear and bondage to IN-security.

§check out all the IF's in the N.T. the next time you go through it. There are PLENTY. This is a conditionl word, as you well know. How do you get passed that?
Because you've gone from one extreme to the other.

I have checked out all the IF's in the NT, just as Roman Catholics love to point out yet what they and you fail to understand is that it's not faith + IF, but IF is a confirmation of being born of God, as I already explained to you in post #14061 - http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/146296-not-works-704.html

When the RCC is wrong, it's wrong.
In this case IT AND THE VAST MAJORITY OF PROTESTANT CHURCHES, are correct. Salvation CAN be lost.
it's good that Christians know this so that they think twice before abandoning God.

The RCC church is wrong about many things. What does the Bible say about "many" and "few" in Matthew 7:13-14? I would not get too excited about what the majority says.

If they listen to YOU, they abandon God and lose their salvation since salvation is only IN FAITH.

Straw man argument. Faith has nothing to do with abandoning God, but unbelief does. Your obsession with losing salvation is ridiculous.

What if they die? You have their soul on YOUR conscience.

I teach that salvation is by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). I don't teach live like the devil, abandon God, no big deal, saved anyway. Your straw man arguments have gone from one extreme to the other.

 

[Zi]

You forgot something so I enlarged it..

1 Peter 1:3-21:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.



Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”

And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God"

 

[FranC]

I just read some of John MacArthur's blog, and love how he puts it. He's another one that also believes in God's promises.

Copy/paste...


"If your hope of eternal life is tied to the consistency of your earthly obedience, what hope is that? When you compare your obedience to the divine standard, when you compare yourself with the holiness of God, how do you measure up? A thousand lifetimes wouldn’t enable me to perfect holiness before an absolutely holy God; a thousand lifetimes would only reveal how utterly corrupt I truly am.

There’s no hope in the doctrine of conditional security. None at all. In fact, ever since that first encounter with someone who believed he could lose his salvation, I’ve met a number of people with the same fear. They constantly fret over the possibility they’ve unwittingly forfeited their salvation, having committed a sin so bad that God has disowned them"


"Not only do I believe the doctrine of conditional security is false, I would even dare to say it is blasphemous. The idea that you could lose the salvation God gave you slanders God and runs contrary to a number of the Bible’s core doctrines."


"Beyond the impossible burden of maintaining personal salvation, the doctrine of conditional security also strikes a blow against the power of God. To say you can lose your salvation—which the Bible says God accomplished through the death of Jesus Christ—is to make God into an impotent deity with no actual power to save anyone. The full exercise of His divine power is at the mercy of a weak, finite, and sinful creature who may or may not cooperate with Him"

Who's John McCathur?
Did he know Jesus or John the Apostle (or someone who knew an apostle)??

Here's someone who did:


Because of the character of the principle of sin, perfection in this age is attained to not fully but in part according to the quality of the war carried against the powers of the devil. Good works are not part of a business agreement between God and man whereby God is obligated to reward external and utilitarian acts of charity. Rather good works are the product of the double struggle waged against the devil and for non-utilitarian selfless love for God and the neighbor. [ 3 ] Therefore communion of divine life through the human nature of Christ is not enough for salvation. The mystical (sacramental) life is not a magical guarantee of eternal life. Christians must also wage an intense war against Satan. " ... if we endure all the assaults of the prince of this world and escape them we shall attain to ( or enjoy) God." (Mag. 1)


Faith and love for each other is one identical reality, as well as the beginning and the end of life in Christ. (Ign. Eph. 14.) Unity with each other in love is "a type and evidence (of teaching) of immortality." (Mag. 6.) "All these things together are good if you believe with love." (Ign. Phil. 9.) Faith is to "be gathered together (synaxis) unto God." (Mag. 10. Therefore in your concord and harmonious love Jesus Christ is sung." (Ign. Eph. 4.) Only in such a harmony of love can we know that we are partakers of God. (Ibid.) Therefore salvation and sanctification can be accomplished only by a unity of love with each other in the life of Christ. (Ign. Eph. 2.)


It is only by participation in the divine life and love of God in Christ through corporate love of neighbors that one may attain to immortality, be justified, and avoid death. (Ign. Eph. 20; Rom. 7; Smyr. 7.) It is exactly for this reason that those who live in Christ with selfless love for each other are "stones in the temple of the Father, prepared for the building of God the Father, and drawn up on high by the instrument of Jesus Christ, which is the cross, making use of the Holy Spirit as a rope... You, therefore, as well as your fellow-travellers, are God-bearers, temple-bearers, Christ-bearers, bearers of holiness, adorned in all respects with the commandments of Jesus Christ." (Ign. Eph. 9; also 15; Mag. 12; Phil. 7.) Christians do everything together "in the Son, and in the Father, and in the Spirit." (Mag. 13.)


The ecclesiology of St. Ignatius rests exclusively and harmoniously upon the biblical teaching concerning salvation and its appropriation. The resurrected flesh and blood of God (Ign. Rom. 7; Eph. 1) is the only source of immortality, of unity with each other in Christ, and of power to struggle for selfless love and simultaneously defeat the devil. Salvation is not magical. God Himself saves those who gather together in the life of selfless love with their clergy epi to auto. The visible Church is composed of those only who continuously share in the corporate eucharistic life. This life of selfless love for God and neighbor is an end in itself. Good works are not, therefore, performed for utilitarian motivations as part of a divine-human business, but rather are expressions of the struggle for selfless love, as well as a most effective weapon against Satan. God has no need of man's acts of charity. It is man who needs good works, prayer and fasting as a spiritual exercise for selfless love and as an effective means of remaining attentive and spiritually alert against the attacks of Satan. Justification by faith alone is a non-biblical myth (Eph. 6:11-17) of sentimental magic based on the false presupposition that salvation is primarily and essentially a matter of divine internal psychology. [ 18 ] Beyond the life of unity centered in the corporate Eucharist as an end in itself there is no Church and only God can know if there is any salvation. Where the Church is not locally manifested and being formed by God epi to auto there is the rest humanity being carried to and fro by the prince of this world. "I pray not for the world, but for them which Thou hast given me." (John 17:9)


Ignatius, A.D. 110
Do not err, my brothers. Those that corrupt families shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If, then, those who do this in regard to the flesh have suffered death, how much more shall this be the case with anyone who corrupts the faith of God, for which Jesus Christ was crucified, by wicked doctrine? Such a person, becoming defiled, shall go away into everlasting fire and so shall everyone that listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16)

Pray also for me, for I need your love along with the mercy of God so that I may be worthy of the duty for which I am destined and so that I will not be found reprobate. (Letter to the Trallians 12)


Ignatius, A.D. 110
Do not err, my brothers. Those that corrupt families shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If, then, those who do this in regard to the flesh have suffered death, how much more shall this be the case with anyone who corrupts the faith of God, for which Jesus Christ was crucified, by wicked doctrine? Such a person, becoming defiled, shall go away into everlasting fire and so shall everyone that listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16)

Pray also for me, for I need your love along with the mercy of God so that I may be worthy of the duty for which I am destined and so that I will not be found reprobate. (Letter to the Trallians 12)


Pseudo-Clement, A.D. 100 - 150
Let us, then, not only call him Lord, for that will not save us. For he says, "Not every one that says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall be saved, but he that does righteousness." Therefore, brothers, let us confess him by our works, by loving one another, by not committing adultery, speaking evil of one another, or cherishing envy; but being continent, compassionate, and good. … By such works let us confess him, and not by those that are of an opposite kind. It is not fitting that we should fear men, but rather God. For this reason, if we should do such wicked things, the Lord has said, "Even if you were gathered together to me, into my very bosom, yet if you were not to keep my commandments, I would cast you off and say to you, 'Depart from me. I do not know where you are from, you workers of iniquity.'" (2 Clement 4)

Let us, then, repent with our whole heart, that none of us may perish needlessly. For if we have commands and [if we] engage in withdrawing from idols and instructing others, then how much more should we not perish because we already know God.

Let us therefore help one another and lift up the weak in what is good so that all of us may be saved, convert, and admonish one another.

Let us not only seem to believe , but let us also remember the commandments of the Lord when we return home.


And so much more...
Quotes about Eternal Security from Christian History

 

[mailmandan]

the self-deception and delusion is believing one can be sinless in the flesh. no one can.

Amen! Those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness (1 John 1:8-10).

 

[BillG]

"Iron sharpens Iron" (swords) ... and dang if mine couldn't slice off a flea's wing at 30 paces!

That reminds me of a joke.

What's the last thing that goes through a fleas mind as it hits the windscreen of a car?

It's arse.

 

[FranC]

The Roman Catholic church is not right about what "believe" means or about eternal IN-security. Salvation obtained and maintained by works is only common sense "to the natural man." So you agree with what Roman Catholicism teaches about what it means to "believe" because they do not agree with eternal security?

I never said anything about "believe" and return to a life of sin. To the contrary, we read in 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Yet you seem to be saying, those who are born of God practice sin and lose their salvation. Who should I believe? John or you?

The main topic here is about what it means to "believe" and is not about eternal security.

I don't buy into the RCC sales pitch about what everyone before Calvin taught. You seem to be obsessed with the idea of Christians losing their salvation. Why is that? Misery loves company? Prior to my conversion several years ago, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I did not believe in eternal security because I believed that salvation was based on works, yet I am no longer on that roller coaster ride of fear and bondage to IN-security.

I have checked out all the IF's in the NT, just as Roman Catholics love to point out yet what they and you fail to understand is that it's not faith + IF, but IF is a confirmation of being born of God, as I already explained to you in post #14061 - http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/146296-not-works-704.html

The RCC church is wrong about many things. What does the Bible say about "many" and "few" in Matthew 7:13-14? I would not get too excited about what the majority says.

Straw man argument. Faith has nothing to do with abandoning God, but unbelief does. Your obsession with losing salvation is ridiculous.

I teach that salvation is by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). I don't teach live like the devil, abandon God, no big deal, saved anyway. Your straw man arguments have gone from one extreme to the other.

I'm sorry you had such a bad experience with RC.
I truly dont' know why you keep speaking to me about this.

I happen to be protestant and what I preach is also preached by any inelligent protestant Church that knows its history.
Including the Nazarene Church I used to attend for many years.

Study of Church history is critical.
We should appreciate the early Church. If it wasn't for the early church, your faith and my faith would be non-existant due to all the heresies the Church had to fight to keep out of the faith.

You should find someone else with whom to speak about the RCC.
That person is not me.

 

[graceNpeace]

Amen! Those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness (1 John 1:8-10).

Yes, emphasis on terminal...sadly!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree with who is right MMD.

And you and those who believe in eternal security are wrong all around.
Leaving aside the bible, it's plain common sense.

If I return to a life of sin, how could I still be saved?
A life of sin and the Holy Spirit cannot live together in the same space.
As is evidenced in 1 Corinthians, Romans, Mathew, James, Peter, EVERY BOOK IN THE BIBLE.

And here we go people. She keeps saying she just believes it is faith can lose salvation, Now she admits that sin can cause us to lose salvation.

Yet she ignores the fact that John said clearly that whoever is born of God can not sin, because they have been born of God, and he also said whoever lives in sin has never seen God or known him.

As I said awhile ago,

I find it amazing, that God said he saved us when we were at our worse. that people think AFTER we have been adopted as a child of God, Given the HS who helps giude us, and chastens us, that we can become WORSE that we were BEFORE we were saved.

That seem to be an impossible task. It basically says GOD totally failed in growing us, they even with his influence and power. we went backward, NOT FORWARD.

Eternal Security has come about only in the past few hundred years. Christianity has been around for over 2,000 years.

Does this tell you nothing? You suppose ALL THE THEOLOGIANS before Calvin WERE WRONG?

This idea of not our salvation may comfort you, but it's INCORRECT.

§check out all the IF's in the N.T. the next time you go through it. There are PLENTY. This is a conditionl word, as you well know.

How do you get passed that?
Because you've gone from one extreme to the other.

When the RCC is wrong, it's wrong.
In this case IT AND THE VAST MAJORITY OF PROTESTANT CHURCHES, are correct. Salvation CAN be lost.
it's good that Christians know this so that they think twice before abandoning God.

If they listen to YOU, they abandon God and lose their salvation since salvation is only IN FAITH.
What if they die? You have their soul on YOUR conscience.

When are you going to realise that the RCC destroyed any documents which would have went against its own doctrines. You going to base your eternity on the fact that documents do not show that eternal security was preached before the reformation? Yet conditional security was the bases of Roman theology?

The world teaches salvation must be earned, What makes your belief any different than islam? Catholicism? Judaism? there really is no difference, Just because you name Christ does not make you a believer.

it is sad you do not trust that God will do what he promised, And you think you can overpower God.. Good luck with that.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why? If you do something wrong, and you consciously are aware of it, what is wrong with
admitting it and confessing this.

I never said we should Not peter And if your not going to read what I said, please stop responding,

I said we can not know every sin, A new child in Christ can not even know what is sin and what is not except for the most popular named ones, How are they going to confess something as sin they do not even know is sin?

 

[Stephen63]

[SIZE=+1]4102 pístis (from 3982/peithô, "persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it. The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1][4102 (pistis) in secular antiquity referred to a guarantee (warranty). In Scripture, faith is God's warranty, certifying that the revelation He inbirthed will come to pass (His way).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Faith (4102/pistis) is also used collectively – of all the times God has revealed (given the persuasion of) His will, which includes the full revelation of Scripture (Jude 3). Indeed, God the Lord guarantees that all of this revelation will come to pass! Compare Mt 5:18 with 2 Tim 3:16.][/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1]1[SIZE=+1]. The root of 4102/pistis ("faith") is 3982/peithô ("to persuade, be persuaded") which supplies the core-meaning of faith ("divine persuasion"). It is God's warranty that guarantees the fulfillment of the revelation He births within the receptive believer (cf. 1 Jn 5:4 with Heb 11:1).[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Faith (4102/pistis) is always received from God, and never generated by us.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Ro 12:3: "For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith (4102/pistis)" (NASU).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1]Eph 2:8,9: " For by grace you have been saved through faith (4102/pistis); and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; [SUP][SIZE=+1]9[/SIZE][/SUP][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1]not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" (NASU).[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm sorry you had such a bad experience with RC.
I truly dont' know why you keep speaking to me about this.

I happen to be protestant and what I preach is also preached by any inelligent protestant Church that knows its history.
Including the Nazarene Church I used to attend for many years.

Study of Church history is critical.
We should appreciate the early Church. If it wasn't for the early church, your faith and my faith would be non-existant due to all the heresies the Church had to fight to keep out of the faith.

You should find someone else with whom to speak about the RCC.
That person is not me.

History is written by those in charge, They usually also destroy documents that would show them to be in error. We know the catholic church had many book burning ceremonies, And they also controlled the worlds church for centuries,

If you want to rely on a history which was written by a corrupt church, Feel free.

For the rest of us, we will stick to scripture.. ok?

 

[PHart]

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:3-5

And now the rest of the story:

James 2:14,17,18,20,21,24 NASB
14...if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
17 ...faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18...show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
20 ...are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

We need to make sure we don't leave out the whole counsel of scripture so that people won't take false comfort in a faith that 'just believes'--the faith that James says can not save. Salvation means being justified by, both, faith and works (I didn't say it, James said it). That means being made righteous by faith all by itself, and being shown to have that righteousness by what you do.

We must satisfy these two definitions of 'justified' (being made righteous, and being shown to be righteous) in order to be saved on the day of judgment. Showing your faith in what you do does not constitute you trying to earn your own salvation by your works as the church is teaching us today. James is very clear: "A man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone" (vs.24 above, emphasis mine). The 'faith' that can not be seen is the faith that can not save you.

 

[mailmandan]

History is written by those in charge, They usually also destroy documents that would show them to be in error. We know the catholic church had many book burning ceremonies, And they also controlled the worlds church for centuries,

If you want to rely on a history which was written by a corrupt church, Feel free.

For the rest of us, we will stick to scripture.. ok?

I've had Roman Catholics quote the early church fathers to me on numerous occasions in their efforts to support "transubstantiation" and "infant baptism" (which we know are unscriptural) yet those writings seemed to support. I once read an article in "The Ex-Catholic Journal" that says some of the writings attributed to the church fathers have been found to be forgeries, while others have been taken out of context. Doctrines such as the immaculate conception, the assumption, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the papacy, purgatory and transubstantiation are alleged to be supported in these early writings.

I hear Roman Catholics quote the church fathers a lot to support their doctrines. The article went on to say that most of the copies of copies of copies of the church fathers that we possess today were copied during the time that the Roman Catholic church controlled the flow of literature in Europe. That would explain a lot! - https://xcjournal.org/the-errors-of-catholicism/church-fathers/

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And now the rest of the story:

James 2:14,17,18,20,21,24 NASB
14...if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
17 ...faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18...show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
20 ...are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

We need to make sure we don't leave out the whole counsel of scripture so that people won't take false comfort in a faith that 'just believes'--the faith that James says can not save. Salvation means being justified by, both, faith and works (I didn't say it, James said it). That means being made righteous by faith all by itself, and being shown to have that righteousness by what you do.

We must satisfy these two definitions of 'justified' (being made righteous, and being shown to be righteous) in order to be saved on the day of judgment. Showing your faith in what you do does not constitute you trying to earn your own salvation by your works as the church is teaching us today. James is very clear: "A man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone" (vs.24 above, emphasis mine). The 'faith' that can not be seen is the faith that can not save you.

Hey bud, you never answered

if Abraham died before he had the opportunity to sacrifice his son, would he have spent eternity with God or away from him?

I am sure you know the answer, can you please share with the room?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I've had Roman Catholics quote the early church fathers to me on numerous occasions in their efforts to support "transubstantiation" and "infant baptism" (which we know are unscriptural) yet those writings seemed to support. I once read an article in "The Ex-Catholic Journal" that says some of the writings attributed to the church fathers have been found to be forgeries, while others have been taken out of context. Doctrines such as the immaculate conception, the assumption, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the papacy, purgatory and transubstantiation are alleged to be supported in these early writings.

I hear Roman Catholics quote the church fathers a lot to support their doctrines. The article went on to say that most of the copies of copies of copies of the church fathers that we possess today were copied during the time that the Roman Catholic church controlled the flow of literature in Europe. That would explain a lot! - https://xcjournal.org/the-errors-of-catholicism/church-fathers/

I like to use the example of WW2, imagine if Germany won, what would be said of the evil American and Britts.

the people in charge write history, and they are going to do it to make them look good, and hitler would probably be seen as a saint

 

[Stephen63]

"The faith" - noun

1. conviction of the truth of anything, belief (Plato, Polybius, Josephus, Plutarch; θαυμάσια καίμείζω πίστεως, Diodorus 1, 86); in the N. T. of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervor born of faith and conjoined with it: Hebrews 11:1 (where πίστις is called ἐλπιζομένων ὑπόστασις, πραγμάτωνἔλεγχος οὐ βλεπομένων); opposed to εἶδος, 2 Corinthians 5:7; joined with ἀγάπη and ἐλπίς, 1 Corinthians 13:13.

a. when it relates to God, πίστις is "the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ": Hebrews 11:6; Hebrews 12:2; Hebrews 13:7; πίστις ἐπί Θεόν, Hebrews 6:1; ἡ πίστις ὑμῶν ἡ πρός τόν Θεόν, by which ye turned to God, 1 Thessalonians 1:8; τήν πίστιν ὑμῶν καί ἐλπίδα εἰς Θεόν, directed unto God, 1 Peter 1:21; with a genitive of the object (faith in) (τῶν θεῶν, Euripides, Med. 414; τοῦ Θεοῦ, Josephus, contra Apion 2, 16, 5; cf. Grimm, Exgt. Hdbch. on Sap. vi., 17f, p. 132; (cf. Meyer on Romans 3:22; also Meyer, Ellicott, Lightfoot on Col. as below; Winer's Grammar, 186 (175))): ἡ πίστις τῆςἐνεργείας τοῦ Θεοῦ τοῦ ἐγείραντος αὐτόν (Christ) ἐκ τῶν νεκρῶν, Colossians 2:12; διάπίστεως, by the help of faith, Hebrews 11:33, 39; κατά πίστιν, equivalent to πιστεύοντες, Hebrews 11:13; πίστει, dative of means or of mode by faith or by believing, prompted, actuated, by faith,Hebrews 11:3f, 7-9, 17, 20-24, 27-29, 31; dative of cause, because of faith, Hebrews 11:5, 11, 30.

 

[graceNpeace]

And now the rest of the story:

James 2:14,17,18,20,21,24 NASB
14...if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
17 ...faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18...show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
20 ...are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

We need to make sure we don't leave out the whole counsel of scripture so that people won't take false comfort in a faith that 'just believes'--the faith that James says can not save. Salvation means being justified by, both, faith and works (I didn't say it, James said it). That means being made righteous by faith all by itself, and being shown to have that righteousness by what you do.

We must satisfy these two definitions of 'justified' (being made righteous, and being shown to be righteous) in order to be saved on the day of judgment. Showing your faith in what you do does not constitute you trying to earn your own salvation by your works as the church is teaching us today. James is very clear: "A man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone" (vs.24 above, emphasis mine). The 'faith' that can not be seen is the faith that can not save you.

You keep putting the cart before the horse!
The "faith" that "just believes" is NOT faith!
Faith that is saving faith (and that alone saves) will have consequent works - that is what James references.
To try and insist that works save is not being intellectually honest with the material!
Not to mention the fact that would make James contradict all the Pauline epistles - he does not actually contradict Paul but a misunderstanding of James chapter 2 just makes it seem that way.

I must have corrected this false impression of this passage in James about 30 times on this forum by now!

 

[Stephen63]

continued.....

b. in reference to Christ, it denotes "a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God" (on this see more at length in πιστεύω, 1 b. γ.); α. universally: with the genitive of the object (see above, in a.), Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, Romans 3:22; Galatians 2:16; Galatians 3:22; Ephesians 3:12; Ἰησοῦ, Revelation 14:12; Χρσιτου, Philippians 3:9; τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ Θεοῦ, Galatians 2:20; τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, James 2:1; μου (i. e. in Christ), Revelation 2:13 (certainly we must reject the interpretation, faith in God of which Jesus Christ is the author, advocated by Van Hengel, Ep. ad Romans 1, p. 314ff, and H. P. Berlage, Disquisitio de formulae Paulinae ψιτις Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ signifieatione. Lugd. Bat. 1856); τοῦ εὐαγγελίου, Philippians 1:27; ἀληθείας, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, with prepositions: εἰς (toward (cf. εἰς, B. II. 2 a.)) τόν κύριον ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦν, Acts 20:21; εἰς Χριστόν, Acts 24:24; Acts 26:18; ἡ εἰς Χριστόνπίστις ὑμῶν, Colossians 2:5; (πίστιν ἔχειν εἰς ἐμέ, Mark 9:42 Tr marginal reading); πρός τόνκύριον, Philemon 1:5 (L Tr WH εἰς) ((see πρός, L 1 c.; cf. Lightfoot at the passage); unless here we prefer to render πίστιν fidelity (see 2, below); cf. Meyer at the passage and Winer's Grammar, § 50, 2); ἐν πίστει τῇ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, reposed in Christ Jesus, 1 Timothy 3:13; 2 Timothy 3:15; τήνπίστιν ὑμῶν ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, Colossians 1:4; ἡ κατά τινα (see κατά, II. 1 e.) πίστις ἐν τῷκυρίῳ, Ephesians 1:15; ἐν τῷ αἵματι αὐτοῦ, Romans 3:25 (yet cf. Meyer). πίστις (cf. Winer's Grammar, 120 (114)) and ἡ πίστις simply: Luke 18:8; Acts 13:8; Acts 14:22, 27; Acts 15:9; Acts 17:31; Rom. ( (on which see νόμος, 3)), Romans 3:31; Romans 4:14; Romans 5:2 (L Tr WH brackets τῇπίστει); ; 1 Cor. ( (here of a charism)); ; 2 Corinthians 4:13; (); ; Galatians 3:14, 23, 25; Galatians 5:5; Galatians 6:10; Ephesians 2:8; Ephesians 3:17; Ephesians 4:5; Ephesians 6:16; 2 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Timothy 1:2, 4 (on the latter passive, see οἰκονομία), ; (on which see ἀλήθεια, I. 2 c.); ; 2 Timothy 1:5; 2 Timothy 2:18; 2 Timothy 3:8, 10; 2 Timothy 4:7; Titus 1:1, 4, 13; Titus 2:2; Titus 3:15; James 2:5; 1 Peter 1:5; 2 Peter 1:1, 5. with a genitive of the subject: Luke 22:32; Romans 1:8, 12; 1 Corinthians 2:5; 1 Corinthians 15:14, 17; 2 Corinthians 1:24; Philippians 1:25; Philippians 2:17; 1 Thessalonians 3:2, 5-7, 10; 2 Thessalonians 1:3; 2 Thessalonians 3:2; Philemon 1:6; James 1:3; 1 Peter 1:7, 9 (here WH omits the genitive); 1 John 5:4; Revelation 13:10; πλήρης πιστέω καί πνεύματος, Acts 6:5; πνεύματοςκαί πίστεως, Acts 11:24; πίστεως καί δυνάμεως, Acts 6:8 Rec.; τῇ πίστει ἑστηκεναι, Romans 11:20; 2 Corinthians 1:24; ἐν τῇ πίστει στήκειν, 1 Corinthians 16:13; εἶναι, 2 Corinthians 13:5; μένειν, 1 Timothy 2:15; ἐμμένειν τῇ πίστει, Acts 14:22; ἐπιμένειν, Colossians 1:23; στερεοί τῇπίστει, 1 Peter 5:9; ἐστερεοῦντο τῇ πίστει, Acts 16:5; βεβαιοῦμαι ἐν (L T Tr WH omit ἐν) τῇπίστει, Colossians 2:7. Since faith is a power that seizes upon the soul, one who yields himself to it is said ὑπακούειν τῇ πίστει, Acts 6:7