Not By Works
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1. yes, I am aware that there was no sacrifice for willful sin under the Old covenant.
2. the whole world was never under that covenant, only Israel.
3. either way, it is no longer in effect.
4. the only sin that will keep someone from being saved is unbelief.
5. you still sin. whither you admit or not is irrelevant, it is a reality for all humans.
2. the whole world was never under that covenant, only Israel.
3. either way, it is no longer in effect.
4. the only sin that will keep someone from being saved is unbelief.
5. you still sin. whither you admit or not is irrelevant, it is a reality for all humans.
U
While I do not disagree on your statement with regards to how free we truly are. Redefining terms to have them mean what we want them to mean according to our beliefs is problematic.
So often on CC this just leads to error refuting error.
People use the same words but they are saying different things.
Free will as understood in classical philosophy means exactly that our will is completely free and there is no choice that is made that has some other determining factor. The term defines itself it cannot be reworked to mean something else.
So often on CC this just leads to error refuting error.
People use the same words but they are saying different things.
Free will as understood in classical philosophy means exactly that our will is completely free and there is no choice that is made that has some other determining factor. The term defines itself it cannot be reworked to mean something else.
He is obvious free to post as he wills and ignorance is not a bad word....for the rest of your post....regardless of your particular stance and belief....you would have to be blind to not see how almost everything he posts is void of context and twisted to prove his false points....
ig·no·rance
ˈiɡnərəns/
noun
noun: ignorance
ig·no·rance
ˈiɡnərəns/
noun
noun: ignorance
- lack of knowledge or information.
"he acted in ignorance of basic procedures"
[TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
[TR]
[TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"]synonyms:[/TD]
[TD]incomprehension of, unawareness of, unconsciousness of, unfamiliarity with, inexperience with, lack of knowledge about, lack of information about; [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
FOR ARIEL...
Quote Originally Posted by Stephen63 View Post
I can't believe you just fixed your mouth to say that.
Ariel answers:
Hmmmm????
Do YOU want to clarify these words?
Ariel,
You're asking Stephen63 to clarify words which I HAVE SAID.
Strange things happen on this thread...
HOW ABOUT ASKING ME WHAT I MEANT???
Seems like the smart thing to do.
You were answering about this statement I made:
Originally Posted by FranC View Post
Agreed.
Ive said many times that if we're going to attribute EVERYTHING to God, then we must also blame Him when we sin.
I'll be most happy to explain it if you wish.
I could explain it much better than Stephen63 can...
Although I'm pretty sure he knows what I meant even though you don't.
Quote Originally Posted by Stephen63 View Post
I can't believe you just fixed your mouth to say that.
Ariel answers:
Hmmmm????
Do YOU want to clarify these words?
Ariel,
You're asking Stephen63 to clarify words which I HAVE SAID.
Strange things happen on this thread...
HOW ABOUT ASKING ME WHAT I MEANT???
Seems like the smart thing to do.
You were answering about this statement I made:
Originally Posted by FranC View Post
Agreed.
Ive said many times that if we're going to attribute EVERYTHING to God, then we must also blame Him when we sin.
I'll be most happy to explain it if you wish.
I could explain it much better than Stephen63 can...
Although I'm pretty sure he knows what I meant even though you don't.
Well, your posts are mostly devoid of scripture, & full of ranting.
Besides, you don't see your own ignorance, let alone everyone else's.
Besides, you don't see your own ignorance, let alone everyone else's.
I think you are mixing some scripture here. Trying to quote John the Baptist to the Pharisees.
It's not works that he spoke of to the Pharisees but fruit.
The inner cleaning of the cup that Jesus spoke of. This comes with repentance and turning from sin. Which all here mostly have done. I wouldn't even know which haven't. That's a personal thing with God. Seen only if God wills it.
Then come the works. We have to have Gods Spirit within to do any work. So all these accusations of sin in the life with easy cheap grace is null. For grace is the very power of Holy Spirit working in our life; bringing us to the end of our faith...the salvation of our soul.
This is another mistake...it's the soul that is being saved...our spirit has been sealed. But, our humanness is being transformed by that which is already given to us in our spirit.
One cannot make oneself holy. It's given, we see this, then we declare this...as the truth becomes reality. Not though in pride. It's true humility to know that our works are nothing in His sight...but His work within boasts only of His power.
Luk 3:8 Produce fruit that is consistent with repentance! Don't begin to say to yourselves, 'We have father Abraham!' because I tell you that God can raise up descendants for Abraham from these stones!
I am so far behind in this thread. If I am repeating what others are saying...just overlook.
It's not works that he spoke of to the Pharisees but fruit.
The inner cleaning of the cup that Jesus spoke of. This comes with repentance and turning from sin. Which all here mostly have done. I wouldn't even know which haven't. That's a personal thing with God. Seen only if God wills it.
Then come the works. We have to have Gods Spirit within to do any work. So all these accusations of sin in the life with easy cheap grace is null. For grace is the very power of Holy Spirit working in our life; bringing us to the end of our faith...the salvation of our soul.
This is another mistake...it's the soul that is being saved...our spirit has been sealed. But, our humanness is being transformed by that which is already given to us in our spirit.
One cannot make oneself holy. It's given, we see this, then we declare this...as the truth becomes reality. Not though in pride. It's true humility to know that our works are nothing in His sight...but His work within boasts only of His power.
Luk 3:8 Produce fruit that is consistent with repentance! Don't begin to say to yourselves, 'We have father Abraham!' because I tell you that God can raise up descendants for Abraham from these stones!
I am so far behind in this thread. If I am repeating what others are saying...just overlook.
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God gifted us in personality, and as we are newly, again, properly aligned with God made innocent by Jesus on a Cross, God employs free will in keeping step with His will and in doing so cultivates the true vibrant distinctions of our personalities; adding to it His light which in turn becomes our distinct personalities being the light of the world. Without free-will love cannot exist. Choice, or the ability to make a decision when faced with two or more options, is not love without the autonomy of choice; the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate. It is free-will that God derives His pleasure in us and our fellowship and union as sons and daughters. By claiming choice over free-will you not only belittle love and mankind as an entity incapable of retaining Agape love, but since God is love you also slap God in the face in whom He is capable of creating to love in a relational setting.
How then, can we look at the bible and see praise, and responsibility, and guilt, and sin, and advice, and persuasion, and deliberation, and prohibition, knowing it takes free-will to perform them and let go of its concept being real? Why would God appoint us to die once and be judged; if judgement of free-will does not apply? How can God award the Crown of Life to those who overcome, if there is no need to over come? Thus, no need to reward? Why would God need sacrifice His only begotten Son for something He could have done without the Cross, in making robots that have tissue and bone? How is His glory shown in a person who is driven like a car? Why does choice need to be then? To look like humans, even though they are robots? This is not biblical nor logical.Yes, free-will is a loaded term for it is loaded with real love and real responsibilities!
How then, can we look at the bible and see praise, and responsibility, and guilt, and sin, and advice, and persuasion, and deliberation, and prohibition, knowing it takes free-will to perform them and let go of its concept being real? Why would God appoint us to die once and be judged; if judgement of free-will does not apply? How can God award the Crown of Life to those who overcome, if there is no need to over come? Thus, no need to reward? Why would God need sacrifice His only begotten Son for something He could have done without the Cross, in making robots that have tissue and bone? How is His glory shown in a person who is driven like a car? Why does choice need to be then? To look like humans, even though they are robots? This is not biblical nor logical.Yes, free-will is a loaded term for it is loaded with real love and real responsibilities!
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Proverbs 16:9 - A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
John 7:17 - If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.
Revelation 3:20 - Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Really?
Please explain 2 Peter 2:20-22
And please don't tell me it's talking about false Teachers.
It doesn't matter WHO it's talking about.
It was someone who had escaped the defilement of the world by the KNOWLEDGE of the Lord Jesus.
Your own Greek scholars here on this thread have said that KNOW means an intimate knowledge and not a head knowledge.
So they are saved.
Then they are AGAIN entangled in the world.
AGAIN means they were unsaved, then saved, and now unsaved AGAIN because they are OVERCOME.
Notice that they DID KNOW THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.
P.S. They had the FREE WILL to be lost
They had the FREE WILL to accept the KNOWLEDGE, heart knowledge, of Jesus and become saved.
They had the FREE WILL to go back into the world and become lost again.
Just like I could do IF I WANT TO.
Would Jesus force me to stay with him and be saved by force?
I guess you don't believe in Free Will.
Please explain 2 Peter 2:20-22
And please don't tell me it's talking about false Teachers.
It doesn't matter WHO it's talking about.
It was someone who had escaped the defilement of the world by the KNOWLEDGE of the Lord Jesus.
Your own Greek scholars here on this thread have said that KNOW means an intimate knowledge and not a head knowledge.
So they are saved.
Then they are AGAIN entangled in the world.
AGAIN means they were unsaved, then saved, and now unsaved AGAIN because they are OVERCOME.
Notice that they DID KNOW THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.
P.S. They had the FREE WILL to be lost
They had the FREE WILL to accept the KNOWLEDGE, heart knowledge, of Jesus and become saved.
They had the FREE WILL to go back into the world and become lost again.
Just like I could do IF I WANT TO.
Would Jesus force me to stay with him and be saved by force?
I guess you don't believe in Free Will.
Now is the subject of free will ? I give.
Going back to topic. I found there are several ways of seeing the word works in the greek. And just this one word works in English.
1. G2041
ἔργον
ergon
er'-gon
From ἔργω ergō (a primary but obsolete word; to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication an act: - deed, doing, labour, work.
Total KJV occurrences: 176
2..
G1411
δύναμις
dunamis
doo'-nam-is
From G1410; force (literally or figuratively); specifically miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself): - ability, abundance, meaning, might (-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle (-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work.
Total KJV occurrences: 120
3..G4234
πρᾶξις
praxis
prax'-is
From G4238; practice, that is, (concretely) an act; by extension a function: - deed, office, work.
Total KJV occurrences: 6
4...
G3167
μεγαλεῖος
megaleios
meg-al-i'-os
From G3173; magnificent, that is, (neuter plural as noun) a conspicuous favor, or (subjectively) perfection: - great things, wonderful works.
Total KJV occurrences: 2
And then there are combinations of greek to explain more.
Going back to topic. I found there are several ways of seeing the word works in the greek. And just this one word works in English.
1. G2041
ἔργον
ergon
er'-gon
From ἔργω ergō (a primary but obsolete word; to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication an act: - deed, doing, labour, work.
Total KJV occurrences: 176
2..
G1411
δύναμις
dunamis
doo'-nam-is
From G1410; force (literally or figuratively); specifically miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself): - ability, abundance, meaning, might (-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle (-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work.
Total KJV occurrences: 120
3..G4234
πρᾶξις
praxis
prax'-is
From G4238; practice, that is, (concretely) an act; by extension a function: - deed, office, work.
Total KJV occurrences: 6
4...
G3167
μεγαλεῖος
megaleios
meg-al-i'-os
From G3173; magnificent, that is, (neuter plural as noun) a conspicuous favor, or (subjectively) perfection: - great things, wonderful works.
Total KJV occurrences: 2
And then there are combinations of greek to explain more.
W
very true Stephan, I might add also that Jesus didn't pay anyone's sin debt, that was invented by Martin Luther and a myth extrapolated upon by the likes of Ray Comfort and many others..... A payment cancels out forgiveness, making mercy unnecessary and void... However, what Jesus did do is purchase our souls at Calvary with His atonement justifying God's mercy, as mercy triumphs over judgement, in that now man can be reconciled back to God's favor and be restored into eternal life through repentance and faith proven by deeds...praise God from whom all blessings flow.. and also because of Jesus work the Father was able to send the Spirit of Grace, that teaches us to live godly, righteously, and of a sober mind in this present world...many foolishly perceive that Jesus paid a sin dept so they can continue in sin .....If someone pays your credit card debt for example the bank can not forgive your debt because there is nothing to forgive (common sense).....The fact is Jesus justified God's mercy, and in turn God could now dispense the mercy that He always desired to give to those that might repent and come clean with Him,,,, be blessed
Believe what you will Fran...verb tense alone shoots down the loss of salvation and like I said...your Jesus is weak and feckless...mine has promised to keep me, finish what he started and NOTHING can separate me from the love of GOD....the context of the chapter is clear.....it has nothing to do with losing salvation....so....again you allow your tainted view to push and drive your belief of a particular context instead of allowing the spirit to lead into the truth of the context and what is actually being said....just as the workers for do.....
Revelation 21
6Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7“He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”Have you ever noticed in the scriptures it will say something like "he who", "the one that", "anyone", etc., plus verses like V8 above where it simply calls them what they are.
Scripture never says "the sinner", or "the saved person", or "the christian". Why is that?
God is being very plain when He speaks of "the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars".
He means every sinner, every backslidden christian, every christian who purposely & willfully sins against God, every one that turns back from God.....
There's no "special" group..... if they're committing these sins willingly they're all gonna pay the price for them. There's no difference between them.
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