Not By Works

PHart · Jul 16, 2017

In the parable of the sower:

Luke 8:13 NASB
13“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

The heat of trials and tribulations drys up what shallow faith is present like how the sun eventually dries up a shallow plant. Like the plant, it doesn't happen in an instant.

jodyb · Jul 16, 2017

Amen! Absolutely perfect.

Grace777x70 · Jul 16, 2017

Bogadile said:

It shows up in many forms. Not many come right out and says that we are saved by works because they know with mental assent that Eph. 2:8-9 is saying that we are saved by grace through faith and not of works.

So, they need to "work around that truth somehow".

They can't come right out and say "we are saved by the works we do " ( although some do say that...)

As Undergrace in post #19377 says - they come in through the "back door" by saying we must continue to have works in order to be saved.

So, basically they are saying - If you don't do good works ( they never say how much and for how long before we are really saved ) - then you lose salvation in Christ.

This "back-loading the gospel" by adding works to the mix and thus they are a works-based / self-righteousness based belief system that actually denies Christ Himself and what He has done.

It is without a doubt a works-based doctrine that is false and it actually nullifies the very grace of God that is in Christ from operating in the believers life like it was meant to.

This is like a mutual funds stock - they say "Oh, the management fee is free but "if" you take out your money - we will charge you." This is called "back-loading".

Grace777x70 · Jul 16, 2017

PHart said:

True obedience in the New Covenant is to believe in Christ. It is called "being obedient to the faith" - even good moral living - law keeping Jews had to be "obedient to the faith."

Acts 6:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

John told us exactly what those commandments are in the New Covenant.

1 John 3:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23[/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

AllenW · Jul 16, 2017

PHart said:

Yeah, like Judas Iscariot fooled everybody except Jesus.
If the Spirit of God is in you, then when you fall away you will feel conviction.
That conviction will eventually bring you back.
Do you feel conviction?
If you do, you know what I mean.

Grace777x70 · Jul 16, 2017

PHart said:

This is in response to your James illustration about faith and works and salvation: You are mis-applying it.

True faith will have a corresponding action of some kind.

Let's look at what James says about faith & it's corresponding "work" in relation to having eternal life now and forever because we heard the message of Christ and believed on Him - then we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Eph. 1:13

It is very interesting that in James's examples of faith "being made alive" by a work or a corresponding action. Both Rahab and Abraham each did a one time corresponding action to demonstrate their faith.

Abraham believed God and offered up Isaac on the alter. Rahab received the spies. Both one time events in their life - God calls this faith in action.

James 2:20-25 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

[SUP]21 [/SUP] Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

[SUP]22[/SUP]You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

[SUP]23 [/SUP] and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.

[SUP]24 [/SUP] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[SUP]25 [/SUP] In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

Paul and James completely go together and do not cancel each other out nor contradict the basic truth of believing in Christ brings eternal life when we hear the true message of Christ's work and that we have the forgiveness of sins.

We do the very same thing when we hear the message of Christ and we believe and then God seals us with the Holy Spirit. This is our faith with a corresponding action or a "work".

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Jesus said to do the work of God was to believe in the Son.

Romans 10:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

[SUP]10[/SUP]for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

This is faith with corresponding action - or a work. This is how we are saved by grace through faith just like Paul said.

James talk about "faith" and "works" is in relation to helping out our fellow man that is in need.

PHart · Jul 16, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

No.

The argument is, if you don't do good works you either never believed to begin with, or you have stopped believing.
Works, or the lack thereof, always follow your faith or the absence of faith. You have misrepresented the argument.

No works gospel here, folks. Everybody can go home now.

Grace777x70 said:

Salvation is indeed free of charge for the person who believes. But if you stop believing and in effect, take your stock out of Christ, you will indeed pay the penalty for leaving the program (Hebrews 10:26-31).

Faith is the currency of trade in salvation (as opposed to works). And even faith is not of you. God gave you the faith to believe. Our responsibility is to accept what faith convicts us of and then believe what faith has revealed to us. But even that believing is not without God's gracious help to keep it strong and effectual if we'll lean on him to do that.

Bogadile · Jul 16, 2017

PHart it seems to me you are saying that: Someone was gifted a car (got saved) and now he has to maintain the car and keep it in good condition (works), or the gift giver will come back and take away the car. (lose salvation)

AllenW · Jul 16, 2017

PHart said:

No.

The argument is, if you don't do good works you either never believed to begin with, or you have stopped believing.
Works, or the lack thereof, always follow your faith or the absence of faith. You have misrepresented the argument.

No works gospel here, folks. Everybody can go home now.

Salvation is indeed free of charge for the person who believes. But if you stop believing and in effect, take your stock out of Christ, you will indeed pay the penalty for leaving the program (Hebrews 10:26-31).

Faith is the currency of trade in salvation (as opposed to works). And even faith is not of you. God gave you the faith to believe. Our responsibility is to accept what faith convicts us of and then believe what faith has revealed to us. But even that believing is not without God's gracious help to keep it strong and effectual if we'll lean on him to do that.

So are you saying God's gracious help isn't strong enough to help keep us believing?
There's something wrong with this picture?

Grace777x70 · Jul 16, 2017

An interesting fact about Abraham being declared righteous by God Himself is that he was declared to be righteous by God because Abraham "believed God " - 15 years before he "offered up Isaac".

His faith was completed as a result of already being declared righteous by God. Knowing the truth about what God says about us releases true faith to grow and be manifested.

Philippians 1:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

There is a false way of trying to create works in order to create and maintain righteousness. This is eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. All works-based / self-righteousness belief systems are eating and operating from the fruit of this tree that is still in the world.

It's the world's system of believing. Losing one's salvation which in Christ alone is such a belief system that is based on this world's way of thinking. God's way are higher than our ways. As much as the stars are above the earth.

True righteousness which comes only from God's work in Christ always comes when we believe what God says is true. There are "fruits of righteousness" as James talks about which shows up in helping our fellow man in need but they do not create righteousness nor maintain righteousness.

Being righteous in Christ comes first because of His work on the cross and resurrection. Getting this backwards creates a religion of self-righteousness and actually denies the work of Christ Himself.

Preach and teach the good news that Christ alone is our righteousness and then the fruit of His life will be manifested in "deeds of righteousness" as He bears His fruit in and through us to a hurt and dying world that needs to see the love and grace that our loving Father has for them.

We will see corresponding action or works that glorify God.

UnderGrace · Jul 16, 2017

You know James knew we are saved by grace and not works and he is not contradicting Paul so it is best to understand this book in light of all of the epistles.

Here is some help......

James 2 is dealing with a practical salvation not positional or eternal salvation.

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]him?" (James 2:14). [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We must ask, "Save him from what?" [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The answer is simple, two fold, and is found in chapters 1 and 2:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] From a ruined life of sin. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls [i.e. deliver your lives]" (James 1:21).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] From unfavorable judgment at the Judgment Seat of Christ[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment" (James 2:12 13).[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"Can faith save him?" The answer simply is, "No!" Faith alone cannot save [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]him from a ruined life and future judgment.

James then uses verses 15 and 16 to illustrate verse 14[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot].[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]the body; what doth it profit?" (James 2:15-16) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]What does it profit, in a practical sense, if we are saved but don't exercise our faith by helping those in need?
Our faith is useless.
Our salvation is doing no one any good if we don't exercise it by helping others.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
https://expreacherman.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/cucuzza-faith-without-works-is-dead.pdf

PHart said:

DiscipleDave · Jul 16, 2017

Ariel82 said:

In Vacation Bible school we collected money to help provide kids with clean drinking water.

$5 would buy enough water for a child for a year.

Most people use that much for a single coffee drink.
It really is humbling to think about.

RoboOp, the owner of the site, is a very giving man and I thank God that he gives his time and energy to run this site. He is actually live in chats and accessible to talk with.

I do believe if you have the means we should all give what we can be it time, prayers or money.

I will confess that I have donated but don't currently, because I don't have a job outside the home. Maybe I will ask my husband later when he isn't so stress out about the trailer we are fixing for his nana to live in (even though she changed her mind, she may change it again) or I get another job.

However I have talked to RoboOp and He is very understanding if you really don't have the means to financially help out.

I can't imagine the sacrifices he and his family make in terms of time and prayers to keep this place going.

I stick around because he wants this place to be family friendly and safe enough to allow his own daughters to use the site.

So I think that is a blessing.

(yeah I am talking a lot because my dog woke me up and can't get back to sleep, so kind of rambling...don't worry I will be off line for 5 days starting tomorrow)

i believe we should all give, if we partake on this site. i give monthly.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave.com

DiscipleDave · Jul 16, 2017

LoveGodForever said:

This is True.

Jesus Christ COMMANDS us (Christians) to:

LOVE ONE ANOTHER.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave.com

DiscipleDave · Jul 16, 2017

NoNameMcgee said:

Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The flesh is weak, but He that lives in us, is stronger. There is no condemnation to them who do NOT walk after the flesh. But who to them who do walk after the flesh and believe they will not have condemnation. NO condemnation is to them that do NOT walk after the flesh, not to those who do walk after the flesh.

If Christ be in you, then it is the Power and Strength of Jesus Christ that helps you to overcome Every temptation that comes upon you. But how many people look to Jesus for help when they are tempted to commit sin, tempted to do something that they WANT to do? Not that anyone on CC does such evil. At least my hope is that they do not.

Rom_8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Doesn't this generation think and believe they CAN live after the flesh, they shall LIVE and not die? Do they not think that Believing and having Faith in Jesus is enough, and that they CAN live after the flesh and still be OK with God, because they believe and have Faith in Jesus? Why is this verse even written then? If believing and Faith in Jesus is all that is needed, why did God decide to put this verse in the Word of God for Christians to follow and believe? Have you mortified the deeds of the flesh as you are instructed to do in the above verses? Or do you continue to obey the flesh and somehow think you are still OK with God? Those who Truly Repent are they that are forgiven. Those who do not truly repent, even though they repent, are still living in the flesh. Those who are led by the Spirit, obey the Spirit. Those who are led by the flesh, obey their flesh.

If i can look to Jesus for Strength and Power over temptations of my flesh, and overcome them, so can you. The question than is, Do you really want to seek His help to stop that particular sin? Because Jesus is more than willing to help those who desire His help to overcome temptations. Remember every single message to the Seven Churches is to them that OVERCOME. If you are still obeying your flesh, how have you overcome it?

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave.com

dcontroversal · Jul 16, 2017

I have asked ALL who say works are necessary to keep or maintain or even get salvation to describe the following found in believers....

Faithful--->works of Gold, silver ad precious stones

_______---->works of wood, hay and stubble.....

if the works of gold, silver and precious stones = the works of a faithful saved child of God what do the works of wood, hay and stubble represent in an EQUALLY SAVED CHILD OF GOD.....?

We have also asked...HOW MANY WORKS are necessary...1, 10. 50 HOW MANY?

JESUS said a cup of cold water would not go unnoticed and or unrewarded....SO HOW MANY WORKS must ONE do to "maintain or KEEP" Salvation??

Sully · Jul 16, 2017

dcontroversal said:

I have asked ALL who say works are necessary to keep or maintain or even get salvation to describe the following found in believers....

Faithful--->works of Gold, silver ad precious stones

_______---->works of wood, hay and stubble.....

if the works of gold, silver and precious stones = the works of a faithful saved child of God what do the works of wood, hay and stubble represent in an EQUALLY SAVED CHILD OF GOD.....?

We have also asked...HOW MANY WORKS are necessary...1, 10. 50 HOW MANY?

JESUS said a cup of cold water would not go unnoticed and or unrewarded....SO HOW MANY WORKS must ONE do to "maintain or KEEP" Salvation??

Let me guess, instead of an answer you get a diatribe of well crafted and equally unrelated questions or analogies...

dcontroversal · Jul 16, 2017

AllenW said:

AMEN and not to mention....

a. We are born of INCORRUPTABLE SEED <----cannot be corrupted
b. Jesus is the Beginner and FINISHER of our faith
c. JESUS said he WILL finish the good work he began in us
d. Jesus said he would NEVER leave us or FORSAKE US
e. JESUS will LEAVE the 99 to go find the one that wandered OFF and restore him to the fold
f. NOTHING can separate us from the LOVE of GOD
g. WE are in the FATHER'S hand
h. We are in the SON'S hand
I. WE are sealed with the HOLY SPIRIT of PROMISE
ETC.....

dcontroversal · Jul 16, 2017

Sully said:

Or no answer at all......

Grace777x70 · Jul 16, 2017

We have also asked...HOW MANY WORKS are necessary...1, 10. 50 HOW MANY?

Sully said:

They will never answer that question because it will expose the works for salvation belief system for what it really is when you boil it all down and what they are really promoting under the disguise of "not believing" anymore.

Sully · Jul 16, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Simply because the follow up question would be "chapter and verse?"

Not By Works

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