Not By Works

[Desertsrose]

Hey DR-

This is the hardest thing to do in the body....Colossians 3.1-17 deep dives this in great detail....2 Peter 1.1-15 shows us as well.

this revelation truth has to come with a complete change in understanding....

We can start by properly understanding Romans 1-8....Those that say Paul always wrestled with his 2 natures and state this is what he was saying in Romans 7, usually and no offense, know 1 verse in Romans 6 and it is VS 23...For the ages of sin is death....One cannot read all of Romans 6 and truly gain Holy Spirit led Revelation truth and then declare Paul struggled all the time in Romans 7....to do so would contradict everything Paul wrote in Romans 6, Colossians 3, Galatians 2 and other Epistles that talk about the new man....

Many will get upset when I say this, but it has to be said....The Romans Road to salvation is bad news, not good news and takes so much of Romans out of context....anyone using Romans road to witness should cease and desist immediately...

Many need to be taught to understand that righteousness is a gift and is position....when people really come to learn what Romans 4-5 and exactly what Romans 5.17 really means it starts to remove the mind set that the new man still falls short...


We also have to teach people they are a 3 part being, spirit, mind, body/flesh and that the new man's spirit is made perfect at conversion....

This truth befuddles people and they cannot grab it, because it is nearly to good to be true...

This truth is shown very clearly in the OT, but people miss it...One cannot read Psalms and Proverbs with seeing that they are constantly all about contrasting the wicked and the righteous......old man/new man....even the Exodus illustrates this....

The sin-consciousness doctrine keeps people bound and from being an overcomer now and keeps from liberating them to be who God says they are called them to be....and do do what he destined them to do....

At its core, it places continual self improvement over kingdom advancement.....if Satan can keep your eyes on yourself and below....he knows you will never overcome and be liberated... and continue to falls for his one single trick....deception about who you are in Christ....

Many that do not understand this truth label others they see with a powerful hand of God on their Spiritual life as fake, fraudulent and self righteous, but cannot see they, themselves have bought a lie from Satan and are engaging in false humility....and are actually only self centered, not kingdom minded about their identity in Christ...and the real truth is, they are being more self-righteous than those they perceive as such, because they are blinded by the god of this world to believe the lie they always fall short and are a wretch, when the new man is anything but in his spirit....


This is why Paul said in this Col 3.1-4

Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. [SUP]4 [/SUP]When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.


If you teach/preach this truth the correct way, people on one side will accuse you of giving people a license to sin and people on the other side will say your preaching sinless-perfection, but this truth sets people free....

I did a study years ago in Romans. It was a precept study and Kay Arthur taught that Paul was speaking of himself and his struggle under the law in chapter 7. 6 and 8 make no sense if we take it that he was talking about his struggle as a born again experience in chapter 7. It's the new birth that saved him from the struggle he had with the law.

So this is why I understand about there not being the two nature battle as Paul described in Romans 7.

I'll take some time and read the references you gave. I just never understood how I can make the way I believe mesh with the verses that talk about putting off the old man. My guess though is that we're being told to put off our old manner and life and not go back to it and continue on in the faith.......continue on in the new birth.......the new person you are in Christ.

Thanks for your kind response and all the references. I'll be back probably tomorrow after reading them all. Appreciate the time it took to get them for me.

 

[UnderGrace]

PennEd,

Would you agree that ....
Faith does not equal salvation?

One can have faith and not be saved?

It is having faith in the right object that saves...Jesus.

Therefore faith in this context cannot be the gift since this means that every person is totally dependent on God for the gift of faith and then some people have no chance for salvation if they are not given the gift.
I hope you will rethink this stance which has its roots in Calvinism.

Also if faith were the gift what is eternal life?

That's fine brother. I just don't know how the "that" in the verse can refer to anything else than the "faith" IMMEDIATELY preceding, which God gave us.
It is further explained WHY the faith is a gift. "lest anyone should boast".

Ephesians 2:8-9New King James Version (NKJV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

 

[PeterJens]

An emotional deception is easy.

Who uses condescension, pictures of holding their head in their hands, anger, frustration,
projections of malice and accusations of slander and lying yet without factual content?
Who says you do not read the bible, or know people without example?

This is an emotional attack to dis-spirit an opponent without engaging them.
Jesus response is simple, "I love you".

The cross speaks, a man dying, God on earth, excuses will hide the heart, so people
can live in sin and still feel ok with themselves.

The Lord waits and stands silent, because either you see love and respond, or you will
never find life. Reality is brutal, but also glorious in Christ. If you think we can analyse
and stand separate from the Lord, you have not grown yet into following His will, and His
ways. The people of the Spirit are like the wind.

 

[Katy-follower]

Why do some have to overcomplicate things.

Matthew 5:13-16: “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven"


"You ARE salt... and light"

We don't stand out for our own salvation sake, but rather for the lost

All who are born of the Spirit will naturally have works, as a result of being saved. Just as a city set on a hill cannot be hidden, so too the light will be seen also, shining in the darkness, for all to see. As a witness to the lost. I like how Jesus says this and references Jerusalem as a city set on a hill (mentioned in Isaiah 2:2-3), as an example so they would understand His point, as Jerusalem could not be hidden on that hill.

I think some on here are confused as to what works are for. Since God is the author and finisher of our faith, He already knows who His children are, so we don't need to do works to prove our salvation to Him, lol The works are for the lost, that we might point them to Jesus. Yet some believe their purpose is to "keep us saved". As if we can maintain our salvation ourselves, as if we control the end result of a salvation that was given to us, through faith alone in Jesus. He is the AUTHOR and FINISHER (Hebrews 12:2).

So much focus on "me" and "look at what I did". It's not about us. Believers have been set free. And now we reach out to the lost who are stuck in bondage, with no hope.... that they might look to Jesus to set them free. We are salt and light. Nothing about works "to keep salvation" at all.

"The truth shall set you free" truly!! Earning and/or maintaining is not freedom at all. This is the bondage that many are stuck in before they get saved. As a result of our freedom we are able to reach out to those who are not yet free. One would not be an effective witness to the lost if they themselves are constantly fretting about their own salvation, never having assurance.

As I said in another post, I had assurance the moment I was saved. I was only 11 and no theologian convinced me of something that I personally felt. I do think that some believers over time will have doubts, after listening to teachers. The fact there are numerous scriptures giving us assurance proves that God knew there would be some doubters and also knew there would be false teachers telling us that salvation can be lost. I'm convinced. But non believers don't have any assurance, because they're not yet saved.

The scriptures say to examine yourself, to make sure you're in the faith. And where there is this mention of dead faith that produces nothing... it makes clear that some may profess to be followers of Jesus when they haven't actually been born of the Spirit. They say they have faith, but yet it's a dead faith. Only that inner change can produce an outward change. But yet modern day pharisees will seek to change the outside only, while being completely dead inside.

Wow, almost wrote a novel there, lol. Just my thoughts.

 

[royalscot]

An emotional deception is easy.

Who uses condescension, pictures of holding their head in their hands, anger, frustration,
projections of malice and accusations of slander and lying yet without factual content?
Who says you do not read the bible, or know people without example?

This is an emotional attack to dis-spirit an opponent without engaging them.
Jesus response is simple, "I love you".

The cross speaks, a man dying, God on earth, excuses will hide the heart, so people
can live in sin and still feel ok with themselves.

The Lord waits and stands silent, because either you see love and respond, or you will
never find life. Reality is brutal, but also glorious in Christ. If you think we can analyse
and stand separate from the Lord, you have not grown yet into following His will, and His
ways. The people of the Spirit are like the wind.

if death is conquered ,how was it conquered, and if you have not got a clue,to the meaning of the logus word or rhema word, of god.
and still claim, to live under a law , yet can not prove, the law, was given to you, and when asked, to prove you, have the law, still remain silent, yet you think, its ok to ignoring others, is going to justify your unbelief.


there is a reason there is silence.

Galatians 5: Christ Has Set Us Free
1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace

 

[Katy-follower]

I guess that did not come out right, perhaps better phrased like this ...if I never did a good deed I would still be saved because my good deeds do not save me.

We know that because of the work of the God's grace we are changed and if we abide in that grace, good works happen, but they do not save us or unsave us.

a true believer will never not do works though,

I agree, but I get what Undergrace is saying.

Death bed conversions though, where one gets saved just minutes or seconds before they take their last breath. They don't have that opportunity to live life on earth as a new creature in Christ, but had they have survived they would have had works, as a result of their salvation. A natural outcome of the inner change.

 

[Katy-follower]

Interesting observation too. Have you noticed that religious people, for example catholics, never tend to "witness" to others, they don't try to convert people to catholicism. For the most part they keep to themselves... they show up to mass, partake in the sacraments, don't interact with anyone, then they leave. There is no fellowship of any sort.

Just using this as an example, because religious non believers don't have any assurance. They would not look to "convert" others when they have no assurance themselves. This is a pattern in many religions. The only ones that reach out to others are born again believers who have been set free, who have assurance of eternal life, and they want others to look to Jesus to set them free also.

Those who haven't had that inner change, who haven't been born of the Spirit, don't naturally do these things. Well this is my observation anyway, having attended the catholic church and from being around various religious people.

 

[Katy-follower]

And that is exactly how works must accompany salvation. Faith does work. If it does not then you have the faith that can not save. James calls it 'dead faith'.

It's the difference between a true believer and a false believer. Both say they have faith, but one is born of the Spirit and the other is not. A dead faith - a completely dead tree that's dead at the roots, and produces nothing. This is not a true believer who has been born of the Spirit.

God prunes believers, that they may bear more fruit. He doesn't prune dead trees that don't belong to Him.

The disconnect here is that (from what I've seen from some of your posts), you believe that it's possible for wheat to become tares. You believe that a believer can go from being made alive in Christ, to then ending up completely dead. What does that say about Jesus, who is the author and finisher of our faith? That He will fail to keep us as promised?

Tares have a dead faith. The wheat have the true faith... they're children of God, heirs of God and joint heirs of Christ (Romans 8) (and the "if indeed we suffer" bit confirming that true believers are not of the world, so we will suffer persecution as Jesus also suffered. A servant is not greater than their master. The "if indeed" being confirmation and not a condition).

The works are not for our salvation sake. God already knows who His children are. Why do we need works to prove this to Him when He already knows? The works are for non believers, that they may see our works and glorify God.... so the purpose is to point them to Jesus. These works were prepared beforehand for us.

Since Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith.... Jesus will not fail in keeping us. It's not possible for a believer who has been made alive in Christ, to then go back to being dead inside. Sure, you might hear people say that they used to be a christian and now they're an atheist, but one doesn't go from being a new creature to then saying that there is no God. Just not possible. So the person saying this was never truly saved to begin with.

 

[Grace777x70]

Hi Grace,
I also find it hard to believe and we should never believe anything like this when it's simply gossip. How about that, we agree again.

When we approach others who are holding to teachings that may be in error, should we call them sacred cows when that would incite them?

Wouldn't it be better to show them scriptures and then pray for God to enlighten them? Amen, when we consider what the Lord has done, I can find words that are adequate to describe all He's done.

I heard on the radio today about a guy who thought he was saved. He started taking classes at Moody via the internet to prepare him to become a pastor and had a heart attack. Soon afterwards he contracted some type of cancer and had to go through chemo treatments.

During all of this process he realized he wasn't saved. He's older in age, but I didn't catch how old. He mentioned that his wife and daughter began to see a change in him. Where he was cussed, he stopped, when he could care less about others, he began to really want to help people. God was definitely doing a change in him.

This is an example of a person being saved by grace through faith. Afterwards as God works in him to change him we begin to see fruit. We see a total change and and now he wants to please God, now he wants to obey Him.

We can all probably identify with this man. Once we could have cared less about God, but when we were born again, a total change took place within our hearts and we began to desire the things of the Lord...... to please Him and desire to do what He wants us to do.

I love hearing stories of God taking a sinner, entering His life and changing him from the inside out through the powerful message of the cross. What a mighty God we serve!!!

I agree.

Sometimes though when we are stuck in a ditch - we need to have a great push to pull us out.

Personally I love the statement "Sacred Cows" because we all have them and I ask the Lord to show me the ones that are "sacred" to me so that I can be free. These "sacred cows" of some church teachings and traditions that we have in our un-renewed minds actually hinder us and rob us from walking in truth that will set us free.

Just like in India - there are cows walking around that they are not allowed to touch - because it's their ancestor - meanwhile some of them are starving. That's the effect of a "sacred cow" in our livesd. it robs us from freedom and true life.

Sometimes the only thing that sets people free is to boldly proclaim the truth and Paul asked people to pray for him for this very thing. It might initially offend them but it will yield a good fruit as the lies we believe become shown for what they really are.

Ephesians 6:19-20 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] and pray on my behalf, that utterance may be given to me in the opening of my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel,

[SUP]20 [/SUP] for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in proclaiming it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.


That was a great story about that man that the Lord showed His love and grace to. Thank you for sharing it!

Yes, we do serve a mighty God and thank God He will be faithful to all of us.

 

[PennEd]

I did a lousy job of explaining this PennEd, long day...


God gives us a measure of personal saving faith when we are physically born[Romans 12.3]...but that faith is not activated to believe until the Holy Spirit convicts you.....Romans 1 says that all men are without excuse for they given faith, but have to chose to acknowledge the creator , but instead believe in the creation....if this is what you are calling a gift of faith, we might be saying the same thing....

Eph 2.8-9 is saying the free gift is salvation[saved] and 1 Cor 12 is not talking about saving faith...eternal life and positional righteousness are the gifts freely given through grace...not faith....

what I do not believe the Bible says is this...

Man has no faith at all and is saved by Grace and through a gift of Faith God gives him when he draws him in.......if you believe this...no big deal and we will not lose fellowship over a difference....

No worries! I do believe in free will AND predestination. Don't know how God pulls that off. Sometimes I think a lot of these discussions are semantics.

Yes I believe God gives each person a measure of faith, and some CHOOSE not to obey the Gospel and believe with that measure, but we were ALL Spiritually dead in our trespasses. A dead person can't be, or do ANYTHING but be dead.

So our faith, as well as EVERY other good gift, comes from God. The unforgivable sin, I think, is to reject that faith, not caring about the conviction of the Holy Spirit, til the point of a hardened heart.

 

[PennEd]

PennEd,

Would you agree that ....
Faith does not equal salvation?

One can have faith and not be saved?

It is having faith in the right object that saves...Jesus.

Therefore faith in this context cannot be the gift since this means that every person is totally dependent on God for the gift of faith and then some people have no chance for salvation if they are not given the gift.
I hope you will rethink this stance which has its roots in Calvinism.

Also if faith were the gift what is eternal life?

I really try not to be put in a labeled box. I have no idea how to square predestination vs. free will choice. I truly believe both.

If you read my previous post, I DO believe God gives a measure of faith to all. Why you, and me, and all our other brothers and sisters in Christ Chose to act on that measure, and so many others do not, is truly above my pay grade.

God is not willing for any to perish. That verse tells me that those who do reject Him do so of their own free will. Yet I can make an equally strong case that HE was the One who chose us.

Have a Blessed day sister!

 

[Magenta]

I really try not to be put in a labeled box. I have no idea how to square predestination vs. free will choice. I truly believe both.

That may be the "I" of irresistible grace (to a Calvinist type).

The following is from http://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are"

Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual;

John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God;

Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and

John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.

“All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).

 

[Ariel82]

What is their fruit? it is their disciples.....looking at their disciples can speak volumes about their heart condition...

We have fruit of the Spirit.

I would like to see the Bible verses that say your fruit is your disciples...I thought we were all disciples of Jesus and brethren to one another?

 

[Grace777x70]

Yes Jesus did admonish us the flesh is weak, but Romans 6, 8 and 12 is the remedy to that flesh being weak issue...you are either alive to God/dead to sin and a slave to righteousness of you are dead to God and slave to SIN....this does not mean we will not struggle and never sin, because we will, but it does mean that we have power over the flesh and have crucified it and its passions...The Spirits role is more than just sealing you...he empowers you and activates enabling grace in you....Romans 8.11/Titus 2.11-15


There is no 2 nature fighting theology found anywhere in the Bible...it is a man made doctrine by men

Amen...this is true. We are a new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.

This is where the "real" us is located. Now we still live in these bodies of flesh and what we do with them will have consequences in this life. Take up shooting heroin in our arms and we will see this destruction come quickly.

We still have this brain which is wired to reflect what we are trusting in - either in the Lord or in "what we do or don't do". This is the foundation of all works-based belief systems.

The flesh promises life but it is outside of Christ. The renewing of our minds in paramount to walking in the stature of what Christ has already made us in the new creation.

Another one that religion gets wrong is this concept of "dying to yourself". We don't die to ourselves everyday - we are already dead when we died on the cross with Christ. We need to be actually "living to our true selves" which we have from being resurrected with Christ. We need our minds renewed to the truths of Christ work on the cross and resurrection in order to walk in what the Lord has done.

We died in the very same manner that Christ died. Is He dying to Himself and on the cross still? Of course not.

Romans 6:5-11 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

[SUP]6 [/SUP] knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;


[SUP]7 [/SUP] for he who has died is freed from sin.

[SUP]8 [/SUP] Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

[SUP]9 [/SUP] knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

I do completely understand the statement that people need to stop being self-centered and often the term "dying to yourself" is used in that context however I find it mis-leading and harmful.

We should be preaching that "you have died" and your life is hidden with Christ in God. Preach Christ and us crucified with Him and us risen from the dead with Him and then we will have the proper nutrients "to be who we already are now in the Lord" because of our union with Him.

( as I typed this post - I see where you have talked about the new man in Christ later on in the thread )

 

[Grace777x70]

No worries! I do believe in free will AND predestination. Don't know how God pulls that off. Sometimes I think a lot of these discussions are semantics.

Yes I believe God gives each person a measure of faith, and some CHOOSE not to obey the Gospel and believe with that measure, but we were ALL Spiritually dead in our trespasses. A dead person can't be, or do ANYTHING but be dead.

So our faith, as well as EVERY other good gift, comes from God. The unforgivable sin, I think, is to reject that faith, not caring about the conviction of the Holy Spirit, til the point of a hardened heart.

Amen...well said.

Faith comes from hearing and hearing from the word of Christ. This is why it is so important to preach Christ and the things that He has already done for us so that us Christians will have the proper nutrients to have our minds renewed.

Romans 10:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Colossians 3:16 (NASB)


[SUP]16 [/SUP] Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

 

[graceNpeace]

I really try not to be put in a labeled box. I have no idea how to square predestination vs. free will choice. I truly believe both.

If you read my previous post, I DO believe God gives a measure of faith to all. Why you, and me, and all our other brothers and sisters in Christ Chose to act on that measure, and so many others do not, is truly above my pay grade.

God is not willing for any to perish. That verse tells me that those who do reject Him do so of their own free will. Yet I can make an equally strong case that HE was the One who chose us.

Have a Blessed day sister!

I believe that both are operational - simultaneously!

It is just another example of lots of apparent contradictions in the Bible.
The fact that God is omnipresent and omniscient is not really understandable by ourselves since we caught in a timeline and can only be at one point in time at any one time - not so with God!
The nature of our salvation is another puzzle since there is a definite element of "complete" yet "not yet complete" - this one causes all sorts of problems with folk who insist on one or the other but the Bible is insistent that this duality of salvation is real.
The very nature of God, we term it the Trinity, is another puzzle that cannot be worked out by us, individuals who are limited to four dimensions, three of space and one of time, whereas God and His nature and operations are not!

To me these somewhat insoluble puzzles are actually a very comforting reminder that God is God, and as such, if we could fully work these things out, then, well, God would not be God, if He was completely understandable by mortal limited man!

I truly look forward to going to God, for the reason that all these things that are not fully comprehensible now, will become fully apparent in heaven. I worship Him now but really feel that once I fully comprehend all these things then God is going to get a lot "bigger" because we will be worshipping Him for eternity in the fullness of knowledge and truth!
And it will take eternity - and even that concept is not understandable to us who are limited by a timeline - yet we will worship and fellowship with God for eternity!

 

[PHart]

You believe that a believer can go from being made alive in Christ, to then ending up completely dead. What does that say about Jesus, who is the author and finisher of our faith? That He will fail to keep us as promised?

The failure is not in Jesus. His ministry is perfect. That is why we are exhorted to hold firmly to our faith:

Hebrews 4:14 NASB
14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven,[SUP]f[/SUP] Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.

See it? Since Jesus is great, hold fast the faith you have. Don't give up. Your confidence is well placed, so don't give up.

The sureness and perfection of Jesus' ministry gives us the confidence and the surety we need to believe to the very end in order to be saved on the day of judgment. Jesus' perfect ministry doesn't mean you can not be unsaved no matter what.

 

[PHart]

The works are not for our salvation sake. God already knows who His children are. Why do we need works to prove this to Him when He already knows? The works are for non believers, that they may see our works and glorify God.... so the purpose is to point them to Jesus.

Certainly God is glorified to the unbeliever through our obedience. But the Bible speaks very clearly of the role of works in giving us assurance of our salvation:

1 John 4:16-17 NASB
Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.

1 John 2:3-6 NASB
3We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5But if anyone obeys his word, love for God[SUP]a[/SUP] is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him:6Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

Since Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith.... Jesus will not fail in keeping us.

Absolutely true. That's why we need to stick with him to the very end. He won't fail us. That's the basis for our faith. So keep having faith in Him for salvation. That's the exhortation of the book of Hebrews.

 

[Grace777x70]

Here John is telling the Christians in his letter to them - that He is writing to them so that they may "know that they have eternal life". Eternal life is eternal life. Why is there so much un-belief in Christ's work in the body of Christ?

No wonder the Lord said "When I come back - will I find faith on the earth."

1 John 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

The works-based belief system would write 1 John 5:13 like this.

"These things have I written unto you to make sure you continue to work for your salvation ( making faith a work ) because if not and you don't grow up in Christ - your loving Father and Lord will throw you into hell and the lake of fire." -

And this is the final outcome of this foul belief system. Our loving Father throws His beloved children that are babies in Christ because they haven't grown up yet to hell. It's an anti-Christ doctrine from the enemy.

Even though Jesus said "The Holy Spirit will be in you forever. John 14:16 - even though Jesus said I will never leave you nor forsake you. Even though Jesus said "No one can pluck you out of My hands nor the Father's hand".

Jesus is NOT a liar. We can trust Him. It's time for all of us to "repent and believe in the gospel" just like Jesus said in Mark 1:15

Let's feed Christians the nutrients of the love and grace of God in the gospel of Christ so that we can grow up in Him and have His good works manifested in and through us to a hurt and dying world that needs to see the love and grace our Father and Lord have for them.

 

[PeterJens]

There is no 2 nature fighting theology found anywhere in the Bible...it is a man made doctrine by men

Amen...this is true. We are a new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.

The flesh promises life but it is outside of Christ.

Has something changed?
The dualist teacher now is preaching oneness of the whole person, born again as a new
creation in Christ? The flesh is the way of death, and the Spirit as the way of life.

Maybe I blinked and something moved, and we are not perfect but are being transformed
through our walk into the likeness of Christ. If so, amen.

And self, the focus on only ones own needs as opposed to other peoples needs is a focus
expressed as "dying to oneself." How is this harmfull?

The flesh promises life outside Christ? No, where does this occur?

I think this is all about defeat and camoflage. I always find it hard when doctrine disappears,
is re-expressed and then claimed this was their position all along.

A least it shows the power of tactical withdrawal, but I know this is just regrouping for another
assault.