Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

Hey MforJ

You make too much sense.

Can if be this simple!!!

I've come to LOVE these two verses.

John 14:15
John 15:14

You'd think John planned the numbering on purpose.

God bless.

I suppose if one is blind to the truth they would like and think a set of verses twisted out of context to make it equate to individual salvation (when it does not) would be comparable to a piece of cake....again.....you better wake up to the truth Fran....equating the collective work and authority of a church to individual salvation is the kind of fallacy that can be eternally lethal!

 

[PHart]

Galatians 2 shows us quite well that Paul was not following any part of the law...

But as even you yourself point out Acts does. So what's your point? We both know he did not do it for the purpose of being made righteous before God, the only way Protestants seem to be able to understand Law Keeping.

..you seem to be trying to paint Paul as a works based salvation believer because of your constant comments that he always observed the law....

Well, for starters I did not say he always observed the law. You just inferred that from what I was saying because that's how Protestants are trained to 'hear'.

We know Paul didn't always observe the law. He was out of Jerusalem for long extended periods of time that made it impossible for him to worship in the one designated place to do that.

1 Cor 9.20-23 refutes this contention of yours and unravels your Paul worked for his salvation and was OK with the Law doctrine...

You just thought I was saying Paul worked for his salvation, because that's how most people in the church instantly hear any and all defenses for fellow believers being able to keep the ceremonial law of Moses for any purpose other than trying to be justified.

 

[Grace777x70]

Hi Grace,



Sorry this is not true. I'm not sure who's telling you this, but it's actually a lie. There are many verses that are repeated in the New from the Old.

Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And after He had fasted forty days and forty nights, He then became hungry. And the tempter came and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.” But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.’”Paul spoke to Timothy extolling the virtues of the Old Testament telling him to continue on in what he learned from the Old Testament.

2 Timothy 3:14-16
You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
~~~

All scripture is inspired. Guess which scripture Paul was speaking of? The Old Testament. They didn't have the New Testament yet.

Paul goes on to say that the Old Testament is profitable. For what?
~ Teaching
~ Reproof
~ Correction
~ Training in Rightousness

Christian common sense should tell us how precious God's word is.......all of it!

It is obvious you missed entirely what I was really saying.

Do you think that Abraham should have slain Isaac on the altar because "God did say to do it?"

 

[dcontroversal]

It is obvious you missed entirely what I was really saying.

Do you think that Abraham should have slain Isaac on the altar because "God did say to do it?"

I have heard any people say that Abraham just went through the motions and would not have done it....God knows and cn see the intentions of the heart of man and knew full well that Abraham was going to do it....Abraham believed God and knew that God would have to raise Isaac to keep his promise....imagine that...he knew and understood the resurrection.....!!

 

[Magenta]

The old is passing away and has become obsolete.

The new is superior to the old and has better promises.

 

[PHart]

....Passover has nothing to do with the resurrection of Jesus Christ...many like to try to make it a type or shadow....

You said, "Many like to try to make (Passover) a type or shadow.".
You mean like Paul?

1 Corinthians 5:7-8 NASB
For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.


Did you know that when you believed and were saved you 'kept' the law of Passover? And when you sweep the shell of the body, the house, you live in of the leaven of sin that you are 'keeping' the Feast of Unleavened Bread that immediately follows the Passover?

You're a law keeper and didn't even know it.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

The above sounds a lot like the below...



God calls us to different ministries. One of which is tewardship.

You ask people to be like the early church.....who then will be entrusted with the power and responsibility of the apostles to be faithful stewards of the blessings God provides?

Many people can give a person a fish...,how many people will take the time to teach them to fish?

God's calling to His people is MORE than jusT MORALISTIC good deeds.

Jesus told his disciples two different things concerning coin purses. Do you know the scriptures and WHY JESUS told them at first to travel without a coin purse or change of clothes and then later to carry a change of clothes, coin purse and sword?


Following the Holy spirit means listening not to a set formula given to all people but walking the unique path that God wants us to walk at a specific moment in our lives.

It's more than reading Bible stories and applying them to our lives...,it's praying and listening to God and following the paths He has made straight for us to walk.

In conclusion, if God calls you to sell all and become a missionary, then do it. If God calls you to be a faithful steward and give as you can at home, then that is good too.

Pray and follow God's leading,

Don't jump off cliffs to "prove" that you are a child of God. Instead follow Him and rest in His love.

GM Ariel!
I've never understood that verse about the coin purse and change of clothes. Could you give your take on it?

 

[FranC]

No sense in going past this skewed and twisted scripture.....he is speaking of their work and authority collectively as a church not their individual salvation....

The tragic truth is, that workers for know no bounds when it comes to twisting context to prove their satanic doctrines that are false and misleading.....

Hi Dcon

You promised to God you'd try really hard not to say "cake takers" and "workers for" and other stuff.
I have it in black and White! In its very own thread!! It didn't last long.

I'm here because you said something above that made me think of the CC. Go figure.

MattforJesus posted in 20288: (288 posts since I clicked on 20,000??!!)

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Church of Ephesus.Jesus said they have fallen,and to repent,and do the first works,or Jesus will remove their candlestick out of its place.

The Lord Jesus has a different outlook than some people that claim Christ have,for He said to do the first works,and because they were not doing those works,they have fallen,and needed to repent,and if they did not repent,their candlestick would be removed.

You're saying above that Jesus was speaking to the work of a Church collectively and not to individual salvation.

Some interesting points come to mind:


1. Why would He be concerned with the individual work of a Church? The Church at Epheses had preached really well and was losing its first love. But the point MattforJesus is making is a very valid one.

THIS is not the point. The point, which is also confirmed by the N.T. Writers, is that the Church CAN fall away.

2. The CC used to teach that you had to be saved by THE CHURCH.
We, OTOH, believe we can only be saved individually.

So, which is it? Is the Church at Ephesus getting people saved as a groups --- which is why it's so important that they not fall from their first love...

or, is it individual salvation, in which case it doesn't really matter if the Church was falling away.
Don't we Always say (many of us) that the Holy Spirit works INDIVIDUALLY and not withing a Church?
Isn't THIS what saves us?

3. If a Church has "collective authority" why do we fight so much against the only one Church that truly has collective authority?

NOTHING MattforJesus has said is twisted.
It's very simple when we follow the same method of exegesis all the way through the entire N.T.

The twisting happens when we make it want to say what WE want it to say.

For instance, John 3:16 uses the word BELIEVE in the present tense. As in every other case... it is ALWAYS present tense as to believing. IOW, you must b elieve at the time of Death. And yet many will take this very simple and straightforward verse and use to mean that something happened in the past that goes on forever and ever. Please don't mention the word aorist... Thanks...You're intelligent enough to know that it's meaning is not that simple...

So, in conclusion (aintcha glad?)

Salvation is PERSONAL.
Jesus ALWAYS taugh this.
He wanted every INDIVIDUAL to have a life altering experience.
He set up churches only to teach HIS word and commandments.
If a Church, that has collective authority, can fall...
So can we as individuals since the Holy Spirit lives in each of us, individually.

 

[PHart]

If men could keep the law there was no reason for Jesus to nail it to the cross and give up his life to redeem men....and the bible is clear....

works of the law or grace......one or the other....a blending of both to gain, keep or embellish salvation = deceived, foolish and no power from a double cursed false gospel.......

You're not gleaning what he said in post #20206.
Of course natural man can not keep the law, and that is why Christ died for us. But that hardly makes it so we can't keep it with the power of God in us. In fact, John says if you are not characterized as one who keeps the commandments of God you do not belong to God.

 

[dcontroversal]

Hi Dcon

You promised to God you'd try really hard not to say "cake takers" and "workers for" and other stuff.
I have it in black and White! In its very own thread!! It didn't last long.

I'm here because you said something above that made me think of the CC. Go figure.

MattforJesus posted in 20288: (288 posts since I clicked on 20,000??!!)

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Church of Ephesus.Jesus said they have fallen,and to repent,and do the first works,or Jesus will remove their candlestick out of its place.

The Lord Jesus has a different outlook than some people that claim Christ have,for He said to do the first works,and because they were not doing those works,they have fallen,and needed to repent,and if they did not repent,their candlestick would be removed.

You're saying above that Jesus was speaking to the work of a Church collectively and not to individual salvation.

Some interesting points come to mind:


1. Why would He be concerned with the individual work of a Church? The Church at Epheses had preached really well and was losing its first love. But the point MattforJesus is making is a very valid one.

THIS is not the point. The point, which is also confirmed by the N.T. Writers, is that the Church CAN fall away.

2. The CC used to teach that you had to be saved by THE CHURCH.
We, OTOH, believe we can only be saved individually.

So, which is it? Is the Church at Ephesus getting people saved as a groups --- which is why it's so important that they not fall from their first love...

or, is it individual salvation, in which case it doesn't really matter if the Church was falling away.
Don't we Always say (many of us) that the Holy Spirit works INDIVIDUALLY and not withing a Church?
Isn't THIS what saves us?

3. If a Church has "collective authority" why do we fight so much against the only one Church that truly has collective authority?

NOTHING MattforJesus has said is twisted.
It's very simple when we follow the same method of exegesis all the way through the entire N.T.

The twisting happens when we make it want to say what WE want it to say.

For instance, John 3:16 uses the word BELIEVE in the present tense. As in every other case... it is ALWAYS present tense as to believing. IOW, you must b elieve at the time of Death. And yet many will take this very simple and straightforward verse and use to mean that something happened in the past that goes on forever and ever. Please don't mention the word aorist... Thanks...You're intelligent enough to know that it's meaning is not that simple...

So, in conclusion (aintcha glad?)

Salvation is PERSONAL.
Jesus ALWAYS taugh this.
He wanted every INDIVIDUAL to have a life altering experience.
He set up churches only to teach HIS word and commandments.
If a Church, that has collective authority, can fall...
So can we as individuals since the Holy Spirit lives in each of us, individually.

I never called anyone a cake taker......and I said I would try to watch the way I address people....and regardless...workers for are workers for....do you deny that you teach works? and my points stand....the address to the churches having their candlestick "stirred away" is not in reference to individual salvation.........so.....

 

[givegoodness]

I believe the fight for salvation is won not with the actions themselves, but rather with the mentalities, motives, and attitudes behind them.

For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. James 2:13


But if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Matthew 6:15


By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. John 13:35

Mercy, forgiveness, and love. What you give is what you will recieve

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Grace777, you’re a funny one with all your Judaizing spirits. Why do you call God’s 4[SUP]th[/SUP] commandment (Ex 20:8-11) carnal? God's Law is not sin. God says it is Holy, Just and Good (Rom 7:12) and if we break it then it is sin just like if you kill someone (1John 3:4; James 2:8-12)

God bless everyone

His law is not carnal. It is spiritual and good.
(We also know He gave us some laws that were not good for us but because of the hardness of heart He permitted them.)

BUT, we do have the tendency to go at His laws in a carnal way rather than in the new, lifegiving way.
The carnal way is by the letter, which kills.
The new, lifegiving way is by the spirit of the words, which does not kill.

For example, one can think they have kept the law to not murder, so then they believe they have kept the law even while breaking it. So they are deceived. You could almost say the law tricks us because of our carnal nature. Or that the law deceives us. (Not that it really is the law deceiving us!)

So the new, lifegiving way is by the spirit of the law, which says that anger in my heart at you means I have ALREADY murdered, because God reads and sees the intents of the heart.

Another example is the day of rest. To go at it carnally rather than in spirit deceives us that we are keeping Gods' law while inside we could be breaking it by worrying instead of trust/faith in many areas Jesus spoke to us about.

 

[PHart]

can i just ask whats wrong with a works Gospel ?

Do you mean a 'works save' gospel, or a 'works justify' gospel?

From a purely technical point of view our works save us ONLY IN THE WAY THAT GOD WILL USE THEM AS THE EVIDENCE OF THE RIGHTEOUSNESS WE HAVE IN CHRIST, NOT AS PAYMENT FOR SALVATION (see Matthew 25:31-46).

I'm not screaming at you, lol. I have to emphasize what I said because there are others in this thread who instantly hear all arguments for works having to be attached to a genuine salvation as an argument for one trying to make them selves righteous before God and earning his salvation. It's hard for them to see that works being required in a genuine salvation experience does not have to mean that those works are earning salvation for that person, but rather are what the Bible itself says true believers will do in their salvation.

I feel like I just stirred the pot up big time, lol.
Man your battle stations!

 

[dcontroversal]

You're not gleaning what he said in post #20206.
Of course natural man can not keep the law, and that is why Christ died for us. But that hardly makes it so we can't keep it with the power of God in us. In fact, John says if you are not characterized as one who keeps the commandments of God you do not belong to God.

Sorry Phart....not quite...the bible is replete with the truth concerning the saved....you have faithful who produce an abundance and you have the not so faithful that may produce few....you have those who produce works of wood, hay and stubble and those who produce gold, silver nd precious stones, those who have an abundance entrance into the kingdom and those who make is so as by fire....those who are placed in positions of authority and those who will be ruled....those who are rewarded abundantly and those who have a ring and a robe because they burnt their reward.....as a matter of fact you have from JESUS who gets it all for being 100% faithful to the lowest servant who is not worthy of much at all and every thing in between....the bible is clear....works do not save, keep saved or embellish salvation.....Paul is clear....John was clear, Jesus was clear....it is faith that saves period....

Do you keep the commandments of God 24/7/365.....NOPE......no man can......exactly why JESUS nailed the condemnation of the law (handwriting of ordinances that was AGAINST US) to the cross.....end of story!

 

[LoveGodForever]

His law is not carnal. It is spiritual and good.
(We also know He gave us some laws that were not good for us but because of the hardness of heart He permitted them.)

BUT, we do have the tendency to go at His laws in a carnal way rather than in the new, lifegiving way.
The carnal way is by the letter, which kills.
The new, lifegiving way is by the spirit of the words, which does not kill.

For example, one can think they have kept the law to not murder, so then they believe they have kept the law even while breaking it. So they are deceived. You could almost say the law tricks us because of our carnal nature. Or that the law deceives us. (Not that it really is the law deceiving us!)

So the new, lifegiving way is by the spirit of the law, which says that anger in my heart at you means I have ALREADY murdered, because God reads and sees the intents of the heart.

Another example is the day of rest. To go at it carnally rather than in spirit deceives us that we are keeping Gods' law while inside we could be breaking it by worrying instead of trust/faith in many areas Jesus spoke to us about.

Hi Stunnedbygrace,

Thanks for your post. I understand that we are carnal without God because all we can do is sin. However when someone comes to Jesus by faith in his Word, we walk in the Spirit through the operation of God and through love we follow God. Regardless my point was God's Law is not carnal

God bless

 

[dcontroversal]

I believe the fight for salvation is won not with the actions themselves, but rather with the mentalities, motives, and attitudes behind them.

For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. James 2:13


But if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Matthew 6:15


By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. John 13:35

Mercy, forgiveness, and love. What you give is what you will recieve

The fight for salvation? Well.....men reap what they sow for sure....but the bible is clear....salvation is WON by faith into the finished work of Christ...

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE.

He that believes on the son is having everlasting life.

 

[PHart]

Saying this, Since the penalty is removed, and the law can not condemn you, We are not under law, but under grace, The law has fulfilled its part in our life, now it needs to work in other people who need to come to Christ.

It's so important to know what being 'under the law' means.

It does not mean we do not have to keep and fulfill the law anymore as most in the church say that, for certainly not being under the law anymore does not mean we do not have to keep the law "Love your neighbor as yourself" (Leviticus 19:18).

Not being under the law anymore means we are no longer under the condemnation of the law. For two reasons: 1) we can actually keep it and be characterized as one who obeys God now, and, so we don't come into the condemnation of the law that way, and 2) when we don't obey the law as we should Christ's forgiveness is there to rescue us from the condemnation of the law we have broken.

 

[dcontroversal]

The condemnation of the law and the handwriting of ordinances that were against us have been NAILED to the cross of Christ.....end of story........we are not UNDER the LAW, BOUND by the LAW, Condemned by the LAW and or JUDGED by the LAW......!

 

[givegoodness]

The fight for salvation? Well.....men reap what they sow for sure....but the bible is clear....salvation is WON by faith into the finished work of Christ...

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE.

He that believes on the son is having everlasting life.

I agree faith in Jesus' sacrifice is key, was not my intention to downplay that at all.

The two really go hand in hand, if you have faith in Jesus you will live by those principles. Without faith it would be very hard to consistently and genuinely show forgiveness, mercy, and love towards our fellow man, especially our enemies. Without faith in Jesus, our sinful mentalities are very inclined to deal with evil such as greed, hatred, and violence with the same exact evils. Without salvation, it makes very little sense to tolerate and endure this wicked system and not fight back with sinful mentalities.

 

[PHart]

Sorry Phart....not quite...the bible is replete with the truth concerning the saved....you have faithful who produce an abundance and you have the not so faithful that may produce few....you have those who produce works of wood, hay and stubble and those who produce gold, silver nd precious stones, those who have an abundance entrance into the kingdom and those who make is so as by fire....those who are placed in positions of authority and those who will be ruled....those who are rewarded abundantly and those who have a ring and a robe because they burnt their reward.....as a matter of fact you have from JESUS who gets it all for being 100% faithful to the lowest servant who is not worthy of much at all and every thing in between....the bible is clear....works do not save, keep saved or embellish salvation.....Paul is clear....John was clear, Jesus was clear....it is faith that saves period....

Do you keep the commandments of God 24/7/365.....NOPE......no man can......exactly why JESUS nailed the condemnation of the law (handwriting of ordinances that was AGAINST US) to the cross.....end of story!

If you are one who can not be characterized as being one who obeys God's commandments you do not belong to God. I didn't say it, John said it. That's not a works save gospel.

You can argue all day long that a faith that produces no works saves, but you are arguing against Paul, Jesus, John, and James. They all say works follow saving faith, signifying the one who has been saved by faith. They don't say works earn salvation. The argument is not that works earn salvation. But that seems to be the only way people in the Protestant church can hear the argument for works being a necessary part of the faith that saves.

As far as the 1 Corinthians 3:8-15 passage. Paul is not talking about personal works of righteousness. He's talking about ministerial, evangelical works. You can have none of those and you will still be saved. You don't have to be successful in building the house of God in order to be saved on the day of Judgement (unless you are teaching things like H-grace that tear down the building of God). You simply won't have any rewards if you aren't successful in adding people to the building of God.