Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

I agree faith in Jesus' sacrifice is key, was not my intention to downplay that at all.

The two really go hand in hand, if you have faith in Jesus you will live by those principles. Without faith it would be very hard to consistently and genuinely show forgiveness, mercy, and love towards our fellow man, especially our enemies. Without faith in Jesus, our sinful mentalities are very inclined to deal with evil such as greed, hatred, and violence with the same exact evils. Without salvation, it makes very little sense to tolerate and endure this wicked system and not fight back with sinful mentalities.

AMEN...John summed it up nicely....this is the victory that overcomes this world---->even our faith.....

 

[Meggido]

The most astounding thing about the legalists is that they seem not to understand the concept of "covenant" - a contract by any other name!
Neither do they understand that if one is NOT a party to a covenant (contract) then one is under no obligation to it!
And, they seem especially ignorant of WHO the parties to the New Covenant were, and what its terms were!
(Hint: no human being is a primary party to this covenant, human beings are only beneficiaries of this covenant!)

The New covenant was made with the Jews first.....not gentiles....

 

[dcontroversal]

If you are one who can not be characterized as being one who obeys God's commandments you do not belong to God. I didn't say it, John said it. That's not a works save gospel.

You can argue all day long that a faith that produces no works saves, but you are arguing against Paul, Jesus, John, and James. They all say works follow saving faith, signifying the one who has been saved by faith. They don't say works earn salvation. The argument is not that works earn salvation. But that seems to be the only way people in the Protestant church can hear the argument for works being a necessary part of the faith that saves.

Your the one arguing and pushing a works based café blend salvation pal....

it is faith and faith alone that saves....end of story

And your bolded is a flat lie.....I have posted at least 100 times that NO ONE HAS said that a genuine believer will not produce fruit or have works......and even qualified it by saying that EVEN a cup of cold water in the name of JESUS or a disciple will not go unnoticed and or unrewarded....I have also said that BELIEVERS who are NOT FAITHFUL will have works of WOOD, HAY and STUBBLE.....YET still be SAVED!

what you cannot understand because of your working for dogma is the simple truth that ONE who has believed HAS proof already....THEY have done the WORK of the FATHER.........

JESUS plus FAITH (the work of the FATHER) = salvation

JESUS plus FAITH plus WORKS for = false gospel with NO POWER<---Paul was clear and this is what YOU espouse and push Phart!

 

[givegoodness]

Your the one arguing and pushing a works based café blend salvation pal....

it is faith and faith alone that saves....end of story

And your bolded is a flat lie.....I have posted at least 100 times that NO ONE HAS said that a genuine believer will not produce fruit or have works......and even qualified it by saying that EVEN a cup of cold water in the name of JESUS or a disciple will not go unnoticed and or unrewarded....I have also said that BELIEVERS who are NOT FAITHFUL will have works of WOOD, HAY and STUBBLE.....

what you cannot understand because of your working for dogma is the simple truth that ONE who has believed HAS already proof....THEY have done the WORK of the FATHER.........

JESUS plus FAITH (the work of the FATHER) = salvation

JESUS plus FAITH plus WORKS for = false gospel with NO POWER<---Paul was clear and this is what YOU espouse and push Phart!

True faith will produce works, I honestly think it's that simple.

 

[Magenta]

True faith will produce works, I honestly think it's that simple.

Does anyone ever disagree with that?

 

[PHart]

The condemnation of the law and the handwriting of ordinances that were against us have been NAILED to the cross of Christ.....end of story........we are not UNDER the LAW, BOUND by the LAW, Condemned by the LAW and or JUDGED by the LAW......!

As a believing, born again Christian we are not bound to the law "Love your neighbor as yourself"?

How can you have the love of God in you in a born again experience and you not 'keep' that law, John asks? That's why works most certainly do have to be attached to faith for that faith to save. Faith alone, minus works, shows you to not have the love of God in you at all. You are not born again. But so many people think they're going to get to the Judgment with that kind of faith and they're going to be ushered into the kingdom. They got another thing coming.

God has warned us ahead of time to have the faith that saves as evidenced by our obedience to God, our work. There's no valid excuse for getting to the Judgment with nothing but an empty claim that the so-called faith that produces no works saves. God has given us his Son so we can, both, be saved and have the works to prove it.

 

[Gabriel2020]

list all the laws you cant keep, if you wanna convince me.. if any of these laws come upon you in your life, would you break them, and be disobedient to God? you could go a life time without encountering most of these laws.

 

[PHart]

True faith will produce works, I honestly think it's that simple.

It is that simple, but we see over and over and over in this thread people insist that true faith does not have to produce works, and that even the faith that does not produce works saves too. Which is in complete contradiction to what John, particularly, says.

 

[dcontroversal]

True faith will produce works, I honestly think it's that simple.

No one has argued that....the contention is, has been and will continue to be.......

FAITH alone saves

or

Faith plus works save<---false

The bible is clear.....any work or fruit is the result of the salvation and faith one already possesses in Christ....after that.....many refuse to believe that a believer can not only produce works of gold , silver and precious stones, but also of WOOD, hay and stubble.........

and HOW many works are necessary to prove faith--->1, 4, 50, 1000

Jesus said the work of the Father is to believe........one who has believed has already DONE the work of the Father.......!

 

[UnderGrace]

[FONT=&quot]
Take note...
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit[/FONT][FONT=&quot]." (Jn. 3:6)
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. (Jn. 1:17)
[/FONT]

The spirit does not need the law the flesh needs the law.
Our flesh cannot be redeemed. We live by the Spirit.
[FONT=&quot]The [/FONT][FONT=&quot]believer[/FONT][FONT=&quot] is now to live in the liberty and power of God's Grace by the Spirit, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]not[/FONT][FONT=&quot] the rule of law[/FONT][FONT=&quot].

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"Not only are we saved by faith rather than by law but law is not to be the rule of life for the believer.
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]We are not to live by law at all. ...Grace supplies the indwelling and filling of the Spirit to enable us to live on a higher plan than law demanded.
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This all is our portion when we trust Christ as Savior. It is in Christ that we receive everything--salvation and sanctification. ...Let's stop trying

some legal system or rote of rules. We have a liberty in Christ[/FONT][FONT=&quot]."
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] ~J. Vernon McGee, Thru the Bible With J. Vernon McGee, Vol. 5, Galatians 5:1[/FONT]

It's so important to know what being 'under the law' means.

It does not mean we do not have to keep and fulfill the law anymore as most in the church say that, for certainly not being under the law anymore does not mean we do not have to keep the law "Love your neighbor as yourself" (Leviticus 19:18).

Not being under the law anymore means we are no longer under the condemnation of the law. For two reasons: 1) we can actually keep it and be characterized as one who obeys God now, and, so we don't come into the condemnation of the law that way, and 2) when we don't obey the law as we should Christ's forgiveness is there to rescue us from the condemnation of the law we have broken.

 

[Magenta]

It is that simple, but we see over and over and over in this thread people insist that true faith does not have to produce works, and that even the faith that does not produce works saves too. Which is in complete contradiction to what John, particularly, says.

I see people saying that it is not the works that grant salvation...

 

[Meggido]

But as even you yourself point out Acts does. So what's your point? We both know he did not do it for the purpose of being made righteous before God, the only way Protestants seem to be able to understand Law Keeping.


Well, for starters I did not say he always observed the law. You just inferred that from what I was saying because that's how Protestants are trained to 'hear'.

We know Paul didn't always observe the law. He was out of Jerusalem for long extended periods of time that made it impossible for him to worship in the one designated place to do that.



You just thought I was saying Paul worked for his salvation, because that's how most people in the church instantly hear any and all defenses for fellow believers being able to keep the ceremonial law of Moses for any purpose other than trying to be justified.

You keep saying Protestants do this and Protestants do that...why is this?........

You seem to be very full of yourself and state...I will not go into ministry because of the people that are all wrong but me.....people who are self absorbed like this are usually self called and self validated....

Quite frankly.....you make clever use of words...and then use them against people....I did not see it in the discourse before but now I see it all over the place with you....I reviewed our entire comments and see this and in your response above proves it...

your not worth any more effort...

 

[notmyown]

ah, man, i missed page 1,000?

was there a party? i made pies!

 

[PHart]

Your the one arguing and pushing a works based café blend salvation pal....

it is faith and faith alone that saves....end of story

And your bolded is a flat lie.....I have posted at least 100 times that NO ONE HAS said that a genuine believer will not produce fruit or have works......and even qualified it by saying that EVEN a cup of cold water in the name of JESUS or a disciple will not go unnoticed and or unrewarded....I have also said that BELIEVERS who are NOT FAITHFUL will have works of WOOD, HAY and STUBBLE.....YET still be SAVED!

what you cannot understand because of your working for dogma is the simple truth that ONE who has believed HAS proof already....THEY have done the WORK of the FATHER.........

JESUS plus FAITH (the work of the FATHER) = salvation

JESUS plus FAITH plus WORKS for = false gospel with NO POWER<---Paul was clear and this is what YOU espouse and push Phart!

It's simply amazing to me that you and others can only hear what I say as an argument that works make us righteous before God. But I'm not here to give you ears to hear. I'm here for the 20 guests presently on line who do have ears to hear and will take to heart this matter of the necessity to have a faith that works, not in order to earn them salvation, but as the necessary outcome of having the faith that saves in you.

They will seek to have the faith that saves (the faith that works--Galatians 5:6) and they will be saved and they will be my reward for my labor in the building and field of God in the kingdom to come. I will rejoice over them just as they will rejoice over me. Your resistance to what I'm saying is simply the spring board to advance that agenda. The more people resist, the more chances I get to proclaim the truth to those who will believe it and be saved and be my reward in the kingdom. So don't take it personally. I'm pushing another agenda here.

 

[Meggido]

It's so important to know what being 'under the law' means.

It does not mean we do not have to keep and fulfill the law anymore as most in the church say that, for certainly not being under the law anymore does not mean we do not have to keep the law "Love your neighbor as yourself" (Leviticus 19:18).

Not being under the law anymore means we are no longer under the condemnation of the law. For two reasons: 1) we can actually keep it and be characterized as one who obeys God now, and, so we don't come into the condemnation of the law that way, and 2) when we don't obey the law as we should Christ's forgiveness is there to rescue us from the condemnation of the law we have broken.

The lawyer now emerges.....

 

[PHart]

You keep saying Protestants do this and Protestants do that...why is this?........

Because I'm being careful to not include Catholics.
They have a better understanding of the necessity for the faith that saves all by itself to be seen in what you do.
I'm not advocating Catholic doctrine. I'm simply saying they get it better than us Protestants.

 

[PHart]

You seem to be very full of yourself and state...I will not go into ministry because of the people that are all wrong but me.....people who are self absorbed like this are usually self called and self validated....

Quite frankly.....you make clever use of words...and then use them against people....I did not see it in the discourse before but now I see it all over the place with you....I reviewed our entire comments and see this and in your response above proves it...

your not worth any more effort...

Hmmm....bummer. So much for you being my reward in the kingdom to come, lol.

 

[Ariel82]

GM Ariel!
I've never understood that verse about the coin purse and change of clothes. Could you give your take on it?

When Jesus sent them two by two before Him..he also sent angels to touch the heart and lives of people they would encounter. Therefore they did not need coin purses, or extra clothes or a sword. However Jesus told them after His cruxification it would be different. For one we have the Holy Spirit, (our sword), His righteousness (our robes). His blood (our coin).

 

[Burninglight]

We are saved by God's grace through faith and we all agree, but when we start saying faith plus this or that are needed in any form, we get in the danger zone. We can have works without faith, but we cannot have true faith without works. That was James message.

Christians have grave misconception about James saying "Faith without works is dead." People can have works without faith and be dead, but it is not possible to have God's grace through faith and be dead whether there are works present or not. Big difference.

James was speaking rhetorically in the sense that it is not possible to have God's grace and faith without any signs. The works if not present will eventually surface, but if you don't see them immediately that doesn't mean dead faith. IOW, there is no such thing as "dead faith" unless you are putting your faith in Muhammad, Islam or some false god or in your works. IOW, if we truly have God's grace and faith, it can never be dead! This is what James was saying.

IMHO, and if you must have works, God's grace and faith that works by love are the only works leading to salvation.

 

[givegoodness]

No one has argued that....the contention is, has been and will continue to be.......

FAITH alone saves

or

Faith plus works save<---false

The bible is clear.....any work or fruit is the result of the salvation and faith one already possesses in Christ....after that.....many refuse to believe that a believer can not only produce works of gold , silver and precious stones, but also of WOOD, hay and stubble.........

and HOW many works are necessary to prove faith--->1, 4, 50, 1000

Jesus said the work of the Father is to believe........one who has believed has already DONE the work of the Father.......!

I think I understand the mentality of the people you mentioned here. Here's something I would say to somebody who is being overly analytical about works:

I believe that you either have faith or you don't. And sometimes your faith can weaken and sometimes it can be strong.

With faith then works will constitute taking in knowledge, striving to do the right thing, and thereby building more faith. With more faith you continue repeating this cycle. If one does not strive to educate and adjust themselves according to Bible's standards then the faith needs to be proactively built up, and we should not continue staying stagnant and satisfied with a low level of faith.

"Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. 17But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 18Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; 19but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful. 20Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop-some thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times what was sown." Mark 4:16-20