The Trinity Discussion

[savedtoast]

The more time I waste writing here another child dies...and another, oh Lord how many children more.

 

[valiant]

where does it say that a believer must believe the Son is the Most High to obtain salvation?

The Gospel of John.

 

[trofimus]

Glad to see that you’ll admit that Theos was not the Theon (the God). So tell me, does Theon and Theos have a different meaning if they do or don’t have a definite article in front of them?

Difference in being God? No. You cant say that one is God and the second is only "divine" or anything similar.

Difference in persons? Yes. Son was with Father. They are both God.

 

[valiant]

Glad to see that you’ll admit that Theos was not the Theon (the God). So tell me, does Theon and Theos have a different meaning if they do or don’t have a definite article in front of them?

It means 'the Word was face to face with THE GOD, and was of the same substance of the Godhead'.

 

[notbythesword]

Difference in being God? No. You cant say that one is God and the second is only "divine" or anything similar.

Difference in persons? Yes. Son was with Father. They are both God.

Theon and Theos do have different meanings to them with or without the definite article. You should look into it a little more.

 

[AllenW]

Mark, here is a good explanation of the trinity, the best I've ever heard in my 33 years of being saved.
It's from the Lutheran church.

The trinity is a mystery that cannot be explained, or comprehended by human reason but is best expressed by stating that we worship one God in trinity and trinity in unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the substance that we are compelled by the Christian truth to confess that each distinct person is God and Lord and that the deity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is one, equal in glory and coequal in majesty.

 

[savedtoast]

Oh the silliness must end, I'll leave you to your trinity.

 

[valiant]

I think Jesus would be proud of us all today for tackling his divine sovereignty, whoops there dies another hungry child.

Then you should have saved him him/her while still proclaiming the full deity of Jesus. But if Jesus is not God, there is no hope for the hungry chid -- nor for you,

 

[valiant]

Theon and Theos do have different meanings to them with or without the definite article. You should look into it a little more.

Your Greek is weak

 

[trofimus]

Theon and Theos do have different meanings to them with or without the definite article. You should look into it a little more.

If you do not understand John 1:1, you can see other Scriptures to make it clear for you, like:

"...Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men."
(Phil 2:5-6)

"But about the Son he says, 'Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever'."
(Heb 1:8)

"Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood."
(Acts 20:28)

"I and the Father are one."
(J 10:30)

------------

I hope its all clear now.

 

[tourist]

where does it say that a believer must believe the Son is the Most High to obtain salvation?

hHopefully these verses will offer clarity for you regarding this.

Matthew 16:16
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Acts 16:31
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

 

[graceNpeace]

John 1:1 would be an excellent example. “In the beginning was the word, and the word was “with” THE Theon, and Theos was the word.

Notice how the word was not the Theon? Rather, it was with the Theon. John made sure to show a distinction in saying that the word was not the Theon, but rather a separate Theos, who was with the Theon but not actually being the Theon.

In many English translations, you get the impression that the word and the God (the Theon) are one and the same. This is simply not the case when examining it in the Greek. A more appropriate translation would render it “and the word was divine”.

Your understanding of the Greek is not accurate.
All the confusion is removed by looking at the last phrase: καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
You have translated it word-for-word but missed its meaning and significance.
That phrase is a very special grammatical construct called a predicate nominative.
Because λόγος takes the article it MUST be the subject. Also, the predicate nominative, θεὸς lacks the article, yet the word order has it leading. The significance of this is that the Word is to have all the qualities of God yet is not God (the Father) and so for an English translation to make any sense it must be translated: 'and the Word was God'
The previous phrase is a simple prepositional phrase: καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν.
There is no overt significance to the presence of an article here since Greek will often use an article where it would be inappropriate to translate the article directly and just as frequently the Greek will omit an article in a situation where an English translation would not make grammatical sense without an article.
And so the translation is 'and the Word was with God'

Put together in the correct order this verse is clearly teaching that the Word was eternal, the Word was God, but that the Word is not the same as God (the Father), yet is otherwise God in every way that the Father is.
Later on in the same chapter vs 14, the identity of the Word is revealed as none other than Jesus Christ manifest in the flesh.

 

[graceNpeace]

Your understanding of the Greek is not accurate.
All the confusion is removed by looking at the last phrase: καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
You have translated it word-for-word but missed its meaning and significance.
That phrase is a very special grammatical construct called a predicate nominative.
Because λόγος takes the article it MUST be the subject. Also, the predicate nominative, θεὸς lacks the article, yet the word order has it leading. The significance of this is that the Word is to have all the qualities of God yet is not God (the Father) and so for an English translation to make any sense it must be translated: 'and the Word was God'
The previous phrase is a simple prepositional phrase: καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν.
There is no overt significance to the presence of an article here since Greek will often use an article where it would be inappropriate to translate the article directly and just as frequently the Greek will omit an article in a situation where an English translation would not make grammatical sense without an article.
And so the translation is 'and the Word was with God'

Put together in the correct order this verse is clearly teaching that the Word was eternal, the Word was God, but that the Word is not the same as God (the Father), yet is otherwise God in every way that the Father is.
Later on in the same chapter vs 14, the identity of the Word is revealed as none other than Jesus Christ manifest in the flesh.

I missed a small phrase, this sentence should read: 'Put together in the correct order this verse is clearly teaching that the Word was eternal, the Word was with God, the Word was God, but that the Word is not the same as God (the Father), yet is otherwise God in every way that the Father is.'

 

[trofimus]

I think they are done by now.

Triunity is so clearly in Scriptures that they have no chance except of ignoring it.

 

[Zmouth]

hHopefully these verses will offer clarity for you regarding this.

Matthew 16:16
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Acts 16:31
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Of course by the mouth of two witnesses shall a matter be established. Yet didn't Jesus call him Satan just a few verses down from Matthew 16:16.

Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. Matt 16:20

But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me:Matt 16:23

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. Matt 24:23

Speaking of two witnesses.

28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
Matt 8:28-29

 

[notbythesword]

I think they are done by now.

Triunity is so clearly in Scriptures that they have no chance except of ignoring it.

It used to be clear back in the day when most people believed in the KJV’s rendering of 1 John 5:7-8. How did that turn out?

 

[trofimus]

It used to be clear back in the day when most people believed in the KJV’s rendering of 1 John 5:7-8. How did that turn out?

No idea, I have never used the KJV.

Its in the text of Erasmus, though.

 

[notbythesword]

No idea, I have never used the KJV.

Its in the text of Erasmus, though.

1 John 5:7 as it still reads in the KJV, was proven to be a forgery. That’s why it appears different in almost all of your modern Bible translations.

 

[Zmouth]

It used to be clear back in the day when most people believed in the KJV’s rendering of 1 John 5:7-8. How did that turn out?

You mean these three, the Spirit and the Word and the Holy Ghost being one. About as good as man and his wife shall be one flesh.

Yet the three that bear witness in the flesh (Since the flesh is matter formed from the earth) and those three being the spirit, the water and the blood. But of course the three states of matter didn't last either, you know gas, liquid and solid, they added the ionized gas which they call plasma.

 

[trofimus]

1 John 5:7 as it still reads in the KJV, was proven to be a forgery. That’s why it appears different in almost all of your modern Bible translations.

Forgery is too strong word, its in Latin, but in no Greek manuscript. Erasmus took several places from Latin, not just this one.

The trinity does not fall with 1J 5:7