Not By Works

[followjesus]

You're replying to UnderGrace.

Did you change your mind?
In your above post you said that believers will bear good fruit.
Please don't change your mind!
This is correct. Believers that love Jesus will have good fruit to show for their love.

If you say good fruit is not necessary, how do you love God?
One goes with the other.

If you have no good fruit, it means there's something wrong.
Good fruit is anything that you do all day long when it's done for the glory of God.

thats a great comment fran. i think that some feel as if our faith is in the cross alone, Jesus died for our sins the end. but thats Just not whats there. when we read " faith without works is dead" thats talking about our actions, our works. if its talking about faith in the cross.......that then eliminates any possible work. its almost as if some speak as if the spirit isnt given to us, or like the spirit doesnt really change us it just comes and remains in us until the last day and then well all hold hands no matter what we have done because we believe Jesus died and rose. while that is without question a necassary thing we need to believe, its only the entry point, not the finish line. Jesus death includes us in the covenant, His work in us through the spirit teaches us to repent of the wrong, and live for the right because we do have his spirit in us.

Thats why Jesus, Paul. peter and John, heck, even solomon and david made perfectly clear that we will each and all be judged for our deeds alone. its a clear teaching in most any section regarding the judgement. oop i forgot revelation teaches the same thing. Our deeds are Our Judgement. but until we understand we have received the Power and righteousness of God by His spirit in us, our deeds wont measure up. when we do receive the Holy spirit, then we should be happy to get to work, helping others, treating people right, caring for the poor among us as were able, not just when we feel like it but when we can Help. to truly get into the world and Love others in Jesus name, His right way by learning from the Master and applying it to Life.....simply because we understand God sent Jesus to save us because He is gracious, and simply because we actually do have faith that Jesus isnt teaching us wrong, He is not setting us up to fail, he didnt falsely promise anything, But Hes Our Lord, our teacher, Our King, Our savior the Only One Authorized By God to do what He did.

the church needs to truly forget the debates and start getting real about Our part. Jesus paid a price thats beyond Our ability to pay Back, the Highest price ever paid and we argue about " nope we dont need to work were saved already" like u said Here who is gonna be full of the Holy Ghost and then come up with the stance " nothing of works, no need for good works, our faith is only in the cross, grace grace alone....." that stance is slaughtering believers Lives, if we were encouraging good deeds, encouraging full commitment, getting radical with How we accept Gods Word meaning as if Gods Word is His word, things would change and what Jesus said about I am the Light of the World...and then YOU are the Light of the World. would come to fruition.


God bless and Keep you sister in all things Jesus Christ the only place to reside

 

[UnderGrace]

So you have never used a figure of speech or a metaphor?

Hi UG,

That is a funny statement above. Show me a bible verse that says Jesus is our Sabbath? Or are you making things up now? God's Word teaches the Sabbath is a Day (7th) that Jesus made this day for man and Jesus is the Lord of this day. Now if Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath how can he be Lord of himself? So you should be able to see what your saying is just not biblical. Anyhow this is what God's Word says..

Mar 2:27,
And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Mar 2:28,
Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

It is one of God's Commandments (Ex 20:8-11)

If we break it than it is breaking God's Law and is sin (1John 3:4)

Hope this helps

God bless you all

 

[dcontroversal]

maybe the words are poorly chosen

but...

is it not so?

i mean


we are indebted to the Holy spirit for good works


but someone who loves the Father in heaven...
someone who follows Jesus


will bear good fruit right?

Salvation stands alone by faith and is eternally given in Christ unto ALL who genuinely acknowledge the work of Jesus on one's behalf.....and the workers for FAIL to acknowledge that ONE who has believed has already done the WORK of the FATHER which is to BELIEVE on JESUS.......

I will not explain this again....a apple tree is an apple tree from the moment it sprouts from seed (spiritual birth) it will have years of growth and maturity before it ever bears 1 apple yet is an apple tree the whole time...it may bear 1 apple (work)<---the work of the FATHER is to BELIEVE....it may bear an abundance, it may have an early frost or drought and not bear for years on end yet is still an apple tree by BIRTH....such is salvation......

PAUL is clear...

FAITH plus WORKS to FINISH salvation is false (GALATIANS 1 and 3)
FAITH and FAITH alone SAVES eternally, justifies eternally, sanctifies eternally and seals eternally....

AGAIN one who has trusted CHRIST has done the WORK of the FATHER...they have BELIEVED on HIM whom HE has sent!

 

[LoveGodForever]

As Royal Scot has already said when was the law given to the gentiles/Christian believer. ie one who is not a Hebrew. Never!!!So none of your questions apply to me, I was never under the law before I was saved, I was under my conscience as discussed in Romans, you need to pose those questions to a Law keeper.
You have some theory that the seventh day existed prior to the Law when God rested, and therefore it still is a necessary commandment. Yet you fail to provide one new testament author who states this to be the case.
As far as wilful sin you continue to avoid cultural context. I further expounded on it in post #20904
Here is the condensed version
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]According to Hebrews, even Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) only covered 'sins of ignorance'
'But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance' (Heb 9:7, NIV)
The Old Testament sacrifices did not cover anything beyond 'sins of ignorance'.
"wilful sin" is sin outside of the Leviticus system of atonement

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Hi UG

I don't know who Royal Scot is. I just follow Jesus through His Word. God's Word applies to everyone of us and we will be Judged by it..... We must follow the Word of God over the teachings of man.

2Tim 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

JOHN 12:

[SUP]47,[/SUP] And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
[SUP]48,[/SUP] He that rejects me, and receives not my words, hath one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

You can choose to ignore God's Word if you like. It is up to you but if you do not believe God, who are you following?


God bless you all

 

[UnderGrace]

Amen, Thank you!!

thats the problem with context, even a child can read , how come you cant, understand this verse, yet claim to know what a sin is.

15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.Hebrews 9

 

[LoveGodForever]

Hi UG,

That is a funny statement above. Show me a bible verse that says Jesus is our Sabbath? Or are you making things up now? God's Word teaches the Sabbath is a Day (7th) that Jesus made this day for man and Jesus is the Lord of this day. Now if Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath how can he be Lord of himself? So you should be able to see what your saying is just not biblical. Anyhow this is what God's Word says..

Mar 2:27,
And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Mar 2:28,
Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

It is one of God's Commandments (Ex 20:8-11)

If we break it than it is breaking God's Law and is sin (1John 3:4)

Hope this helps

God bless you all

So you have never used a figure of speech or a metaphor?

Hi UG,

Did you answer the above?

 

[royalscot]

As Royal Scot has already said when was the law given to the gentiles/Christian believer. ie one who is not a Hebrew. Never!!!

So none of your questions apply to me, I was never under the law before I was saved, I was under my conscience as discussed in Romans, you need to pose those questions to a Law keeper.

You have some theory that the seventh day existed prior to the Law when God rested, and therefore it still is a necessary commandment. Yet you fail to provide one new testament author who states this to be the case.

As far as wilful sin you continue to avoid cultural context. I further expounded on it in post #20904


Here is the condensed version

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]According to Hebrews, even Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) only covered 'sins of ignorance'

'But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance' (Heb 9:7, NIV)

The Old Testament sacrifices did not cover anything beyond 'sins of ignorance'.

"wilful sin" is sin outside of the Leviticus system of atonement

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

just adding some thing dont mean to stand on you toes.

i already posted this. new covenant is for all believer , not a continued old covenant blended in to christian belief system.
hi it also covers the jewish also, paul make this clear in gal 3 , when talking to peter (apostle)



21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.

 

[dcontroversal]

Hi DCON

Please show me in any of my posts that I am teaching a “Works flavoured salvation”. Are you speaking the truth? I have already shared with you what I believe in post 19989. Can you tell me in that post from God’s Word how what I believe is a “works flavoured salvation”? If you cannot why do you say this? I follow God’s Word because I love Jesus. Do you love Jesus DCON?

God bless you all

Did I name you in particular? The ones I have dealt with is indicative of the 7th day Adventists I have dealt with in the U.S.....I do not recall saying that in particular about YOU per se......

 

[UnderGrace]

He is person who posts on this thread. #21099

Okay then well I guess that takes of that, I guess you have no answer to the fact that the gentile was and is not under the law?

I agree, that is why I am not following your teaching (teaching of man) because it does not line up with the scripture.

Hi UG

I don't know who Royal Scot is. I just follow Jesus through His Word. God's Word applies to everyone of us and we will be Judged by it..... We must follow the Word of God over the teachings of man.

2Tim 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

JOHN 12:

[SUP]47,[/SUP] And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
[SUP]48,[/SUP] He that rejects me, and receives not my words, hath one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

You can choose to ignore God's Word if you like. It is up to you but if you do not believe God, who are you following?


God bless you all

 

[dcontroversal]

The important thing is that you have something to show for the faith you claimed you had while you were in the body. If you get to the Judgment having trusted in a dead faith (faith with no works attached) you will find that you have been trusting in a faith that can not save you. You will be cast into the eternal fire.

That's why the Bible exhorts us to make our calling and election sure, so we can know NOW that we do indeed have the faith that really did solicit a declaration of righteousness and which will usher us through the coming Judgment safely. It's too late on the Day of Christ's return to do anything about it if you realize then you really didn't have the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works.

See, the Bible doesn't say take comfort in your workslessness. It says be diligent to 'do' so that you can know that your calling and election is a sure thing and, therefore, you will be richly welcomed into the kingdom at the end of the age:

"he who lacks these qualities (see context) is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. 10Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you." (2 Peter 1:9-11 NASB)
​

Yep and it also states that some have works of wood, hay and stubble yet are SAVED......would you describe that as being faithful or unfaithful?

 

[PHart]

This is a complete misunderstanding of who brothers and sisters in Christ are.

WE ARE BORN AGAIN! A NEW creation. We are His Children by birth. Why can't you see that?

Of course that's true! I'm not saying it isn't. What I'm saying is you will not continue to be that if you stop believing.

How am I no longer going to believe who my Father is?

By not trusting that Christ's blood is the payment for your sins. What's to cover your sinning if you no longer trust that Christ's blood is the payment for that sin? Nothing, of course. That's what Hebrews 10:26 says.

AND, even if were possible for me to no longer believe I am His son, would that change the FACT that I STILL AM HIS SON? By BIRTH!

What would change is the fact that you will be cut off from the life giving sap of the tree--the Holy Spirit. You will become a dead branch without the sap of the tree in it was cut out from in it. You can't have eternal life if you no longer have that eternal life (Jesus Christ) in you.

Becoming an (adopted) child of God is not like the birth of a new separate person that can't be reversed as if it never happened. The new birth is simply the life of God coming to live inside of you through the Holy Spirit changing you into a different person who thinks and acts differently now. It's not a new and separate person as when a child is added to creation in addition to those people who exist already. You become a different person (1 Samuel 10:6), and so you are 'new' in that way.

What exactly does this once saved but now lost person unbelieve?

He ceases to trust that Christ is the payment for his sins. With no faith to secure the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice in heaven for you (Romans 5:2), you have no sacrifice remaining to pay for your sins you commit (Hebrews 10:26).

 

[LoveGodForever]

He is person who posts on this thread. #21099

Okay then well I guess that takes of that, I guess you have no answer to the fact that the gentile was and is not under the law? I agree, that is why I am not following your teaching (teaching of man) because it does not line up with the scripture.

Did you want to talk scripture now? What ones would you like to talk about? Ok let's start with what you have just said above? What does it mean to be "Under the Law"?

God bless

 

[royalscot]

what covenant, were you born into a new or old covenant.


when was a gentile, at acts 2 ,


the problem with a date or history account , it explains change, it is not trapped in something it can not explain.

again when did cornlious (acts 10)repent before, he was given the holy spirit.

3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

 

[UnderGrace]

Definitely the New Covenant is available to ALL, gentile and Jew and

Definitely yes the New Covenant is not blended with the Old Covenant.

Thank you for adding that in!

just adding some thing dont mean to stand on you toes.

i already posted this. new covenant is for all believer , not a continued old covenant blended in to christian belief system.
hi it also covers the jewish also, paul make this clear in gal 3 , when talking to peter (apostle)



21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.

 

[Sully]

what covenant, were you born into a new or old covenant.


when was a gentile, at acts 2 ,


the problem with a date or history account , it explains change, it not trapped in something it can not explain.

again when did cornlious (acts 10)repent before, he was given the holy spirit.

3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Nice. And that's the whole reason for this game they play. Do you see it? It could be called Game of Souls.

 

[dcontroversal]

What are these works saved people do?

They fail to acknowledge the simple fact that every one who has trusted JESUS by faith which SAVED them eternally has already done THE WORKS OF THE FATHER by believing on HIM whom he hath sent.......

 

[PHart]

Yep and it also states that some have works of wood, hay and stubble yet are SAVED......would you describe that as being faithful or unfaithful?

I describe that as being unfaithful, or unsuccessful at your labor in building the house of God, not being works-less in regard to holy living. If I talk and talk and talk in this thread in the hope of building the building of God, but if I fail and no one is added to the house of God, or strengthened into someone who is of the quality that will make it through the Judgment I won't have them on the other side of the Judgment to be my reward (1 Thessalonians 2:19). I will be saved, but it will be my skin alone. That's why Paul says in the passage you're referring to (1 Corinthians 3:8-15) that we need to be careful how we build (1 Corinthians 3:10), so we'll be accomplishing work in the building of God (adding and building up other believers in the house of God) that can survive the fires of Judgement--so we'll get a reward for our labor.

The passage has nothing to do with a person being works-less in his personal life of holiness and still being saved despite his absence of works. We know it can't be that because the author of Hebrews (probably Paul, by the way) and John says the works-less person is the unsaved person who gets burned up in the end and does not know God. So you are interpreting the lack of works of the laborer in the building of God in 1 Corinthians 3 incorrectly and making it contradict other scripture. So we know your interpretation can not be correct.

 

[UnderGrace]

Truly, I thank God that many of us DO!!!

Nice. And that's the whole reason for this game they play. Do you see it? It could be called Game of Souls.

 

[stonesoffire]

Are you asking me personally?

I believe Jesus is my Sabbath rest.

I was thanking you for a comment you made previously. Then the rest of my post was to LGF.

Should of waited to post tomorrow. Lol. That will teach me to "rest" before work. Tee hee,.

 

[dcontroversal]

I am under the belief that no one is saved until they are actually saved. So yeah i believe in once saved always saved. After you make it to whatever heaven is, you are saved for eternity. But as long as you are a human on this earth still living, i don't believe you are saved, but in the process of working out your salvation.

No offence, but Greek verb tense and the fact that salvation is spoken of in the past, present and future tenses disagrees with your view friend.....

a. I was saved the second I believed
b. I am saved right now
c. I will continue to be saved into the future

The only thing that we are waiting for is the glorified body that goes with it..........we get that at the anastasis (resurrection) and the Parousia (coming) of JESUS.....

The sealing of the spirit is the earnest or down payment upon that eternal transaction.....