Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
True faith will have a corresponding action of some kind.

Let's look at what James says about faith & it's corresponding "work" in relation to having eternal life now and forever because we heard the message of Christ and believed on Him - then we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Eph. 1:13

It is very interesting that in James's examples of faith "being made alive" by a work or a corresponding action.
Both Rahab and Abraham each did a one time corresponding action to demonstrate their faith.

Abraham believed God and offered up Isaac on the alter. Rahab received the spies.
Both one time events in their life - God calls this faith in action.
More copy/pasting & fabricated lying. Both did waaay more than a one time demonstration to prove faith.

I'm even more surprised at you, dcon, for accepting that nonsense as truth.

You know better than that.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
To keep the malice and the continued deceit to a bare minimum - here is what James said and both were one time events in the life of Abraham and of Rahab. James used these one time events to show how true faith will produce an action..

James 2:21-26 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

How many times did Abraham offer up Isaac?

[SUP]22 [/SUP] You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

[SUP]23 [/SUP] and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.

[SUP]24 [/SUP] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[SUP]25 [/SUP] In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

How many times did Rahab received the spies?

[SUP]26 [/SUP] For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

This statement below concerning our eternal redemption in Christ is true even if it "conflicts" with those that say our loving Father throws His children into hell and the lake of fire.

Let's look at what James says about faith & it's corresponding "work" in relation to having eternal life now and forever because we heard the message of Christ and believed on Him - then we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Eph. 1:13

It is very interesting that in James's examples of faith "being made alive" by a work or a corresponding action. Both Rahab and Abraham each did a one time corresponding action to demonstrate their faith.

Abraham believed God and offered up Isaac on the alter. Rahab received the spies.
Both one time events in their life - God calls this faith in action.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
An interesting fact about Abraham being declared righteous by God Himself is that he was declared to be righteous by God because Abraham "believed God " - 15 years before he "offered up Isaac".

His faith was completed as a result of already being declared righteous by God. Knowing the truth about what God says about us releases true faith to grow and be manifested.

There is a false way of trying to create works in order to create and maintain righteousness. This is eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

True righteousness which comes only from God's work in Christ always comes when we believe what God says is true which is all based on the finished work of Christ - by grace through faith when we heard the gospel message. We received the "gift of righteousness". Rom. 5:17

There are "fruits of righteousness" as James talks about which shows up in helping our fellow man in need but they do not create righteousness
.

Being righteous in Christ comes first because of His work on the cross and resurrection. Getting this backwards creates a religion of self-righteousness and actually denies the work of Christ Himself.

Preach and teach the good news that Christ alone is our righteousness and then the fruit of His life will be manifested in "deeds of righteousness" as He bears His fruit in and through us to a hurt and dying world that needs to see the love and grace that our loving Father has for them.

We will see corresponding action or works that glorify God.
 
T

terry_newyork_usa

Guest
"And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, IF indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel" - Colossians 1:21-23
 
May 11, 2014
936
39
0
It is rather strange that the Apostles forgot to tell us how much turning from sin one must do to obtain salvation. Another mystery is why did they put so much emphasis on words such as believe and have faith, unless of course these are just another word for obedience, which would also be quite strange since the word obedience in the greek is a different word and is used elsewhere.

This kind of lack of specifics would worry me if I put my salvation into my own hands, you can never be sure you are doing good enough. What makes Christianity different from other religions is precisely our salvation, it is God-centered not man-centered, but if we abandon that God-centered grace salvation we will end up in the same system of religion as Judaism, Islam and the rest
 
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
hey Stephen mon u been here a while yes maybe u can answer my question in post #21513
Folks think this is about two christian groups fighting over their doctrine..... not true.

One group isn't christian at all, but fallen away to false doctrine.

This is why this side constantly fights & bashes others..... such fruit doesn't belong to God.
 
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
My post is in blue:
Here is another post that speaks of the Lord will reveal Himself and that we are praying for him. The denying of some people that Jesus is God come in the flesh is well documented here in CC.

Some people's post I treat the same way as I do the porn ads that pop up on my screen from time to time.

I don't interact with known slanders of others in the body of Christ just like Paul says to do in 1 Cor. 5:11.
Yes you do. many of your group does, & you talk to them every day.
I also take this advice from Paul.

Romans 16:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

You don't avoid them, you joined them.
Because unfortunately they are caught in this.

Hebrews 12:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;
 
T

terry_newyork_usa

Guest
At Bogadile: "It is rather strange that the Apostles forgot to tell us how much turning from sin"

Peter, Acts 2:38 - Repent.
Paul, Acts 20:21, repentance toward God
Hebrews 6:1 - Repentance
Revelation 3:19 - repent
2 Timothy 2:25,26 - grant them repentance
2 Corinthians 7:9,10 - sorrowful to the point of repentance
Matthew 3:8 - bear fruit in keeping with repentance
Acts 26:20 - turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance
First word out of John the Baptist' mouth: repent
First word out of Jesus' mouth when beginning to preach: repent
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
Paul said to boldly proclaim Christ and the gospel and to ask that people would pray for him that he would speak out boldly the gospel as he ought to.

Ephesians 6:19-20 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] and pray on my behalf, that utterance may be given to me in the opening of my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel,

[SUP]20 [/SUP] for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in proclaiming it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.


Romans 1:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

[SUP]17 [/SUP] For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

We are not ashamed of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and we will not be intimated by apostate pastors and others that try to tell believers that are in Christ that their heavenly Father who loves them dearly will send them to hell and the lake of fire - even though Jesus redeemed us from sin by His own blood and obtained an eternal redemption for us. Heb. 9:12

To these apostate so-called leaders they say in many ways and forms that God sends baby Christians to hell. It's anti-Christ at it's very core.

Read 1 Corinthians and see what Paul had to say about those living by the flesh. I will post that truth next.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,175
29,478
113
"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." James 2:24
Justification is not salvation.

Simply put, to justify is to declare righteous, to make one right with God. Justification is God’s declaring those who receive Christ to be righteous, based on Christ’s righteousness being imputed to the accounts of those who receive Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21). Though justification as a principle is found throughout Scripture, the main passage describing justification in relation to believers is Romans 3:21-26: “But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.”

We are justified, declared righteous, at the moment of our salvation. Justification does not make us righteous, but rather pronounces us righteous. Our righteousness comes from placing our faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. His sacrifice covers our sin, allowing God to see us as perfect and unblemished. Because as believers we are in Christ, God sees Christ's own righteousness when He looks at us. This meets God's demands for perfection; thus, He declares us righteous—He justifies us.

Romans 5:18-19 sums it up well: “Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.” It is because of justification that the peace of God can rule in our lives. It is because of justification that believers can have assurance of salvation. It is the fact of justification that enables God to begin the process of sanctification—the process by which God makes us in reality what we already are positionally. “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 5:1).
https://www.gotquestions.org/justification.html
 
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
To keep the malice and the continued deceit to a bare minimum - here is what James said and both were one time events in the life of Abraham and of Rahab. James used these one time events to show how true faith will produce an action..

James 2:21-26 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

How many times did Abraham offer up Isaac?

[SUP]22 [/SUP] You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

[SUP]23 [/SUP] and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.

[SUP]24 [/SUP] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[SUP]25 [/SUP] In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

How many times did Rahab received the spies?

[SUP]26 [/SUP] For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

This statement below concerning our eternal redemption in Christ is true even if it "conflicts" with those that say our loving Father throws His children into hell and the lake of fire.

Let's look at what James says about faith & it's corresponding "work" in relation to having eternal life now and forever because we heard the message of Christ and believed on Him - then we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Eph. 1:13

It is very interesting that in James's examples of faith "being made alive" by a work or a corresponding action. Both Rahab and Abraham each did a one time corresponding action to demonstrate their faith.

Abraham believed God and offered up Isaac on the alter. Rahab received the spies.
Both one time events in their life - God calls this faith in action.
There are no one-time events, quoted or implied in the Bible. It doesn't exist. G777 quotes that from a hypergrace site, which is against the rules.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
I agree that the Holy Spirit knew what He was doing when He had Paul write 1 Corinthians....

Some of them were going to temple prostitutes for sex, they were taking each other to court, they were in divisions and strife, they were not treating the poor amongst them right...etc.

Paul was saying that those in Corinth were acting like mere men and men of flesh - in other words not being spiritually minded.

1 Corinthians 3:1-4 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]
I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,

[SUP]3 [/SUP]
for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not mere men?


I noticed that in verse 1 Paul says that they are "babes in Christ".

- not that your loving Father is sending you to hell because you are sinning as some apostate pastors try to tell Christians.
Or that because they were sinning - that they are not born of God.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,584
9,104
113
To keep the malice and the continued deceit to a bare minimum - here is what James said and both were one time events in the life of Abraham and of Rahab. James used these one time events to show how true faith will produce an action..

James 2:21-26 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

How many times did Abraham offer up Isaac?

[SUP]22 [/SUP] You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

[SUP]23 [/SUP] and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.

[SUP]24 [/SUP] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[SUP]25 [/SUP] In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

How many times did Rahab received the spies?

[SUP]26 [/SUP] For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

This statement below concerning our eternal redemption in Christ is true even if it "conflicts" with those that say our loving Father throws His children into hell and the lake of fire.

Let's look at what James says about faith & it's corresponding "work" in relation to having eternal life now and forever because we heard the message of Christ and believed on Him - then we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Eph. 1:13

It is very interesting that in James's examples of faith "being made alive" by a work or a corresponding action. Both Rahab and Abraham each did a one time corresponding action to demonstrate their faith.

Abraham believed God and offered up Isaac on the alter. Rahab received the spies.
Both one time events in their life - God calls this faith in action.
Hey Bruce, I think Abraham believed God well before Isaac. God told him to move himself and all his household to Canaan.
He did.

Interesting that he took his sweet old time obeying God, as he first just moved upriver a couple hundred miles to Haran.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
There are no one-time events, quoted or implied in the Bible. It doesn't exist. G777 quotes that from a hypergrace site, which is against the rules.
I'm breaking my rule for not interacting with known slanders in the body of Christ to refute this completely foul lie.

Show where this is a quote from some site. I typed that out by myself and it is not in any website that I have seen or I would have gave the link to it.

How can you say that you are a minister of God and lie like that so openly? My goodness how much more ungodly in your behavior can one get? In your religion your Father if you really are a Christian born from above - would send you to hell.

You should be thanking God for the gospel of the grace of God if you have believed in Christ when you heard the message of Him.

This is one of the reasons why people reject Christ - they are not really rejecting Him - they are rejecting what us so-called Christians are portraying as God.

This is the last I am going to respond to your lies, malice and bitterness and leave you in the hands of the Lord. I will pray for you that the Lord will grant you repentance and that you see the beauty, love and grace of our father and Lord really ahs for you and for all people.
 
P

PHart

Guest

There is a false way of trying to create works in order to create and maintain righteousness.
We create works BECAUSE we are continuing in the righteousness we received when we first believed

Abiding in Christ is characterized by a life of ever increasing holiness. If you do not have that life, yet you claim to be in Christ, John says you are a liar. The person who does not have a characteristically righteous life was either never born again to begin with, or they stopped believing somewhere along the line. Either way, works are the evidence of whether or not you really became a new person in salvation when you confessed Christ and whether you are continuing to be a new person by the Holy Spirit in a continuing salvation.

People who don't have the walk, even just a little, to match the talk have a faith that can not save them on the Day of Judgment. They either never had that faith, or they lost it somewhere along the line:

"3By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 John 2:3-4 NASB)

"
14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14 NASB)

Church, stop letting the church give you false comfort in a works-less salvation. Do what the Bible says. Make your calling and election sure--start acting like what you say you are. If you can't do that, then be born again for real this time.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
Hey Bruce, I think Abraham believed God well before Isaac. God told him to move himself and all his household to Canaan.
He did.

Interesting that he took his sweet old time obeying God, as he first just moved upriver a couple hundred miles to Haran.
Yes....I agree....I said that it was 15 years before Abraham offered up Isaac that God declared him righteous because he "believed " what God said.

I was using the one time event that James talks about that showed "faith with works" and related it to us believing in the message of Christ and we too had a corresponding action to our faith and declared that Jesus is Lord.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
There is a massive difference between church discipline to protect the people and the Lord sending you to hell as can be seen by the letter Paul said to the 1 Corinthians.

Paul told them who they were in Christ...then corrected their behavior...he didn't say you were all unsaved now or that because they were sinning that they were not born of God like some people try to teach. Nor did he say that their loving Father will now send them to hell as apostate ministers try to tell Christians.

( without understanding the new creation in Christ - this "sinning" part will throw people off because they don't understand what is being done by giving in to the flesh and what the new man is Christ really is. )

Paul told them who they were in Christ
...
Here are 7 things that Paul confirmed as truth in the believers in Corinth before he went on to correct their behavior.


1)
The Corinthians have been sanctified in Christ Jesus,

2) The Corinthians were now
saints by calling

3)
The Corinthians in everything were enriched in Him,

4) The Corinthians had
the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in them,

5) The Corinthians had
that God will also confirm them to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ

6) The Corinthians had that it was by Gods doing that we are in Christ
( Not our own D.I.Y. self-righteousness and holiness
)

7) That because the Corinthians were in Christ - Christ Himself became to them wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption



1 Corinthians 1:2-9 (NASB)

[SUP]2 [/SUP] To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

[SUP]3 [/SUP] Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus,

[SUP]5 [/SUP] that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge,

[SUP]6 [/SUP] even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,

[SUP]8 [/SUP] who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[SUP]9 [/SUP] God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,


Preach and teach the grace of Christ as it is the only think that teaches us how to live godly in this world. Titus 2:11-12. The word of His grace is the only thing that is able to build us up and that gives us the inheritance that is ours in Christ. Acts 20:32
 
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
PAY SPECIAL ATTENTION TO THE BLUE PART OF THIS POST, EVERYONE!!!
Paul said to boldly proclaim Christ and the gospel and to ask that people would pray for him that he would speak out boldly the gospel as he ought to.

Ephesians 6:19-20 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] and pray on my behalf, that utterance may be given to me in the opening of my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel,

[SUP]20 [/SUP] for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in proclaiming it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.


Romans 1:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

[SUP]17 [/SUP] For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

We are not ashamed of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and we will not be intimated by apostate pastors and others that try to tell believers that are in Christ that their heavenly Father who loves them dearly will send them to hell and the lake of fire - even though Jesus redeemed us from sin by His own blood and obtained an eternal redemption for us. Heb. 9:12

To these apostate so-called leaders they say in many ways and forms that God sends baby Christians to hell. It's anti-Christ at it's very core.

Read 1 Corinthians and see what Paul had to say about those living by the flesh. I will post that truth next.
Would someone explain to me why this group claims apostasy doesn't lead to spiritual death, then whenever it's suits their purpose, imply it does by calling them "anti-christ"?

We all agree that "antichrist" means condemned to hell, right?

I am reading that "apostate pastors" in this post is talking about apostatizing from the faith, right?

This post does judge these so-called leaders as "apostates", doesn't it?

How is it there's no malice in his words?

How can he judge like that after telling others not to judge?

How can this be anything but hypocritical?
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,584
9,104
113
There are no one-time events, quoted or implied in the Bible. It doesn't exist. G777 quotes that from a hypergrace site, which is against the rules.
There is in fact a glaringly obvious, classic, INDISPUTABLE example of just that. A ONE TIME EVENT DISPLAYING FAITH THAT RESULTED IN SALVATION.

Our brother and friend, Mr. thief on the cross.

Maybe you should apologize to your brother Bruce. It would do ALL of our hearts good to see you FOR ONCE, humble yourself.