Not By Works

stonesoffire · Jul 30, 2017

[h=1]G4624[/h]σκανδαλίζω
skandalizō
skan-dal-id'-zo
To “scandalize”; from G4625; to entrap, that is, trip up (figuratively stumble [transitively] or entice to sin, apostasy or displeasure): - (make to) offend.
Total KJV occurrences: 30

this is the definition for stumble or as the KJV says offend.

stonesoffire · Jul 30, 2017

PHart said:

Do you see the parable of the sower with the seed showing that the unprepared ground meant they stopped believing?

garee · Jul 30, 2017

Yes, right here in CC.
Calvinist OSASer's say the true believer can never stop believing.
H-grace OSASer's say it doesn't matter, they are still saved even if they later deny Christ and go back to the world in unbelief. If he has begun the good work of beliveing having the faith of Christ ,he will finish it to the end .

Calvin is dead no longer having any part under the Sun

If they are true believers that do deny Christ in unbelief (no faith) it would be impossible for Christ to deny them that he has paid the full wage of their sin

The Christians do act foolish at times it does not make the hearing of Christ's faith that works in us without effect.

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?This only would I learn of you, “Received ye the Spirit” by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Gal 3:1

Tasting of the word and falling away shows the ones that do expose Christ to public shame by their dead works that they offer towards God

Ariel82 · Jul 30, 2017

Phart, what causes unbelief?

How do you know that person ever had belief or saving faith in the true Gospel in the first place?

stonesoffire · Jul 30, 2017

PHart said:

Ok, you believe that Jesus died for all the world, right?

So knowing this we can say that all born have the potential of the new birth, true? That if one dies in infancy, this ensures that child goes to heaven, true?

So perhaps that parable is speaking of all being positionally in God, the tree of life, yet at the end of life, remains in unbelief...is that one then not cut off?

Could this be?

Jesus spoke many different parables to show truth.

PHart · Jul 30, 2017

By the way, thank you all for this round of pleasant and edifying discussion.

Cee said:

I'm a new creation in Christ BECAUSE I am saved. By virtue of the Holy Spirit I am a new person inside. I'm new in that I have a new code running the fundamental operating system of my being. Without it I'm the old me.

Cee said:

Yes, because to be saved is to be a new creation. Believing is what solicits the indwelling Holy Spirit who changes me into a new person (not a new and distinct being that did not exist before).

Cee said:

Because that's his promise to those who believe in him. The condition for the promise is that you believe and trust in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin. Stop satisfying the condition for the promise and you will no longer be entitled to the promise. That's not a works gospel. Believing in Christ is not among the works that Paul says can not justify.

Cee said:

Yes, 31 years ago.

Ariel82 · Jul 30, 2017

The issue being discussed now seems to be...

1. Can people fall away?

I believe people do wander away from God.

2. Did they ever have a saving faith or were they just nominal Christians?

Personally I can't answer that. Only God really knows. I would be more interested in how to share the Gospel and God's love that they are drawn back to God.

3. Are they lost forever or can God restore them to fellowship with Him?
I believe God can restore fellowship for those prodigal sons and daughters and there is always hope while the person is still alive.

We can go into theoretical situations, but I would rather focus on sharing the Gospel and prayerfully learning how to restore our relationships with God and one another in love.

However if folks would rather burn something...we can make lots of bonfires,

stillness · Jul 30, 2017

Sully said:

For this discussion to be according to the word, the whole verse should be quoted,
"Not by the works of righteousness witch we have done but by His Grace alone."
Rather than half the verse as a judgment against dead works, witch by the way both sides of this argument are believing the same thing: If dead works make faith void or dead, than both sides agree that we are not eternally secure unless we abide in Love, as "Faith works by Love."
As we agree to learn to Love, the confusion of language that began at the tower of babel where they were building without Love will lift. Was in heaviness yesterday over this trouble, it's lifting. Today in church saw both sides saying the same thing. As Paul warned "You are divided because your carnal," referring to being in the mind of the flesh instead of the mind of God. we are called to be of one mind in Christ. Getting past what we think we know in our understanding, to know from the heart in admiration worship, with God as our first Love. Understanding as well that some are not all there: we are here because we are not all there, and some like a good debate, make sure it's a good debate, leading towards God.

PHart · Jul 30, 2017

Ariel82 said:

Either weak faith, or a desire for the things of the world in preference to the things of God. It costs to dedicate oneself to the things of the kingdom and so your resolve (your believing) has to be strong in order for you to endure to the end in the things of God. The value of God's forgiveness is key to having a strong faith that can and will endure to the very end.

Ariel82 said:

The activity of the Spirit is how.
For example, I know someone personally who accepted Christ, eventually spoke in a genuine gift of tongues (trust me on this) confirming the presence of the Holy Spirit in salvation but who then willfully went back to unbelief.

Charles Templeton, Billy Graham's partner in evangelism, stopped believing but later lamented he 'missed Jesus'. He either really experienced the indwelling Spirit and really quit believing later, or he only knew the draw of the Spirit and never really gave in and got saved. I'm divided. I don't know enough about his story to know which is more likely. But it's clear that it is not unreasonable at all to believe that genuine believers do in fact abandon their trust in Christ and return to the world.

stonesoffire · Jul 30, 2017

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not G3362 G5100 G3306 in G1722 me, G1698 he is cast G906 forth G1854 as G5613 a branch, G2814 and G2532 is withered; G3583 and G2532 men gather G4863 them, G846 and G2532 cast G906 theminto G1519 the fire, G4442 and G2532 they are burned. G2545

Lets look at abide not:

It's three Greek words for abide not in this verse.

[h=1]G3362[/h]ἐὰν μή
ean mē
eh-an' may
That is, G1437 and G3361; if not, that is, unless: - X before, but, except, if no, (if, + whosoever) not.
Total KJV occurrences: 40

[h=1]G5100[/h]τίς
tis
tis
An enclitic indefinite pronoun; some or any person or object: - a (kind of), any (man, thing, thing at all), certain (thing), divers, he (every) man, one (X thing), ought, + partly, some (man, -body, -thing, -what), (+ that no-) thing, what (-soever), X wherewith, whom [-soever], whose ([-soever]).
Total KJV occurrences: 457

[h=1]G3306[/h]μένω
menō
men'-o
A primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy): - abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.
Total KJV occurrences: 120

Unless any person does not stay in a given, place, state, relation or expectancy.

PHart · Jul 30, 2017

stonesoffire said:

Yes, in the second type of soil. Jesus even said that the person who had the second type of soil believed for a while. Calvinism says this believing was not true believing (because it did not endure). But I don't see any rationale for saying that from the parable itself. Jesus said they believed and so I believe exactly what he says, they believed.

Off to bed, folks.
Thanks again for the civil, courteous discussion. I mean that.

Ariel82 · Jul 30, 2017

PHart said:

A weak faith is a stony heart and a person who values the world more than God is a thorny one.

I am not fully convinced that they were saved to begin with. I believe they heard the gospel but never fully accepted Jesus in their hearts and bore fruit unto salvation...,this never having been born again of the Holy spirit..,just the draw.

As for your personal stories..,,,i don't think we are qualified to tell and I believe it's a waste of time to speculate.

U believe our time would be better spent in prayer that they learn to reject the lies and come back to God,

On a side note, do you believe that speaking in tongues is needed to show you have the Holy spirit?

I meet a group in college who believed speaking in tongues was needed or you weren't really saved.

Ariel82 · Jul 30, 2017

Yeah midnight here should be sleeping too. Night all.

stonesoffire · Jul 30, 2017

Post 23130 is the second part of post 23125.

Otherwise it's confusing.

stillness · Jul 31, 2017

"Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."
Jesus had no trouble admitting He was powerless of Himself, having come as a man with identify in the flesh.
"I can do nothing of myself but what I see the Father doing."
The word acknowledged being powerless except to do what the Father is doing."
This is our example to follow in His labour, "We are labourers together with God."
Grace works in us and we work with Him: in agreement with him, to do what He does.
"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling for it is God at work in you both to will and to do His good pleasure."
"For You have created all things, and for Your pleasure they are created."
may the Lord lift our eyes from temporal things.

Cee · Jul 31, 2017

I appreciate the discussion as well.

I see being a new creation is being permanent. Paul says the old is gone. The old man is dead. If the new man goes I'm not sure what man is left.

Paul says we are being renewed in our mind to who we are in Christ and this proves the will of God.

Paul says he was crucified to the world. Past tense. And its no longer him who lives, but Christ in Him.

I don't believe someone can lose their salvation, but I appreciate you sharing why you believe so.

Great discussion to you as well.

C.

PHart said:

TruthTalk · Jul 31, 2017

Attribute: Ipad digital art by Dajorus - Title: Beach Bonfire

Hi Ariel, I was pretty much a second cousin to Jonah only I was on the shores of Thailand exactly half way around the world from my home in California. My wife and I miss Thailand immensely but hope to make a return soon to visit her family. I have been counseled by the senior pastor at our church who happens to be Thai and now my wife is friends with the pastors mom. If you are sincere in your repentance and reach out to God, He can truly restore the joy of your salvation.

As I was at the depths of the sea I made my plea to God and today I repeat Jonah's prayer when he was at the bottom of the sea in the belly of a Great fish, "Salvation is from the Lord." Jonah2:9. If anyone is ever considering running away from God take a lesson from Jonah - Always run to God in times of trouble, never away from Him, because running away from God is like running into darkness.

JIMBO43 · Jul 31, 2017

PHart said:

Intresting post this is a story about moses... Moses was at the point of cracking up with all the whinning and complaining from all the people he was leading to the promised land.. he was so worn out and fed up,, God heared moses winning moses asks God if your going to treat me like this and expect me to deal with all theese complaints can you take pity on me and kill me..

The lord said to moses assemble 70 respected men who are reconised and respected leaders of the people.

The lord said bring them to me at the tent of my presence and tell them to stand there beside you.. i will come down and speak with you there..

And i will take some of the spirit i have given you and give it to them.. then they can help you to bare the responceability of theese whinning complaining people..

So what does this mean spirit given in the old testement. ? and giving some of one persons faith and (spirit) to another persons faith.. Obviously theese 70 other leaders didnt have the same amount of spirit and faith as moses to endure such problems from the people..

So spirit is given and within that spirit enough faith is given for you to deal with your roles and responceabilities...

Should you need more faith what then ? well as the says bible faith is like a mustard seed it can grow to help you deal with more responceability.. but if your not dealing with more responcability then what is the need for your faith to grow ? or what is the need for God to give you more faith or more spirit ?..

all this can be found in numbers 11:10-18.......

Does he give each new person the ability to fight of demons ? or the ability to say no to badness is it down to the believer to do this or do demons have powers that we dont ?

JIMBO43 · Jul 31, 2017

TruthTalk said:

johna was never going to die in that fish he was there coz he disobeyed God.. God knew it wouldnt be long befor jonna cried out to the lord.. however God maybe did need to hear jonah plea of sincerity for forgivness. but i ask the question who wouldnt ask for this after being eaten by a huge whale..

It was of cause diffrent for jonha,,, he knew God he talked to God so why would he disobey God ? in my oppinion he became scared of his task that was layed out in from of him to go and ask a nation to repent where a nation of people to be wary off..

Its the same story for moses as i just posted up above,,, they where both chosen for huge tasks that we all need help with not to carry this burden alone... Instead of running away jonha should have done what moses did and that was to seek help from the lord to finish his task..

Or should it be down to the lord to automnatically help you ? i think in jonahs case it was coz God chose to automatically help Jonah by getting him eaten by a whale..

It was then God spoke t him and restored his faith...

So it is with a unanimous verdict that faith can be abandoned for fear of being scared which can be retsored without asking God or asking God..

JIMBO43 · Jul 31, 2017

JIMBO43 said:

Intrestingly enough the 70 people started speaking in tongues when the spirit ascended upon them... all seventy men started to speak like prophets.. 2 of the seventy leaders had stayed in the camp and not gone to the camp ..... there in the camp the spirit came upon them and they two started speaking like prophets...

conclusion if youve been chosen for the lords works whether you want it or not you will recieve more spirit to enable you to do them works...

conclusion works are from the father bad works are from being scared and satan ....

The truth is we are not always responcible enough to carry out Good works.. Does this make us fall out of favor with God ?

Does this make us unsaved for ever for not carrying on in our duties set out by God ?..

when we look at jonha and moses The answer is no we just need to have our faith restored.

So is being scared a sin or something the enemy can get a hold of.. i PERSONALY THINK BEING SCARED is a human emotion that can encourage sin.. So being brave is where we all must lend a hand

Not By Works

Poetic Member

Poetic Member

Banned

Ariel82

Guest

Poetic Member

PHart

Guest

Ariel82

Guest

Senior Member

PHart

Guest

Poetic Member

PHart

Guest

Ariel82

Guest

Ariel82

Guest

Poetic Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Banned

Banned