Not By Works

[JIMBO43]

"Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us." - 1 John 3:21.

the story of john 15:1-16 clearly illustrates that we are connected to his vine we have become a part of his church.



This story also clearly illustrates that Goodness will flow from this church into us where by people on the recieving end will start to bare fruits for them selves like obeying Gods commandments. what it allso clearly indicates is some will not...meaning those those born of the first fruits.. [SUP]10 [/SUP]If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. [SUP]11 [/SUP]These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.



[SUP]6 [/SUP]If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. [SUP]7 [/SUP]If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. [SUP]8 [/SUP]By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.


So we prove we are his deciples by are fruits if we have them yet.. so its not an automatic exchange but i bet he doesnt like it if your not baring them after so long..


You stay the true believer will produce fruits and this does not apply to you.. coz your a true believer... So would you say that Gods honor is on the line in you ?

meaning you are carrying Gods honor,, is it your duty to abide in him for this ?

 

[JIMBO43]

Ok so let me put it this way is baring fruits from the believer a once in a life time event ?

 

[Ahwatukee]

the story of john 15:1-16 clearly illustrates that we are connected to his vine we have become a part of his church.



This story also clearly illustrates that Goodness will flow from this church into us where by people on the recieving end will start to bare fruits for them selves like obeying Gods commandments. what it allso clearly indicates is some will not...meaning those those born of the first fruits.. [SUP]10 [/SUP]If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. [SUP]11 [/SUP]These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.



[SUP]6 [/SUP]If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. [SUP]7 [/SUP]If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. [SUP]8 [/SUP]By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.


So we prove we are his deciples by are fruits if we have them yet.. so its not an automatic exchange but i bet he doesnt like it if your not baring them after so long..


You stay the true believer will produce fruits and this does not apply to you.. coz your a true believer... So would you say that Gods honor is on the line in you ?

meaning you are carrying Gods honor,, is it your duty to abide in him for this ?

Believers in Christ are sinners covered by his blood, being transformed into his image as the go from faith to faith, which is the process of being made holy, also called sanctification. This process will continue until we are changed into those immortal and glorified bodies and caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

Other than this, I don't understand what you are trying to say.

 

[JIMBO43]

Believers in Christ are sinners covered by his blood, being transformed into his image as the go from faith to faith, which is the process of being made holy, also called sanctification. This process will continue until we are changed into those immortal and glorified bodies and caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

Other than this, I don't understand what you are trying to say.

tell me when you say the process will continue until you are changed ,,,,, is this the same rule for everyone ? ?????????

meaning you can stay connected to the vine and sin for the next 50 years your ok as long as you change.. so in other words we can all mess up Gods garden coz he will prune it back for us everytime ?

 

[PennEd]

this is covenant relationship and I do not disagree with it...you will likely never divorce Jesus or father....but to say some won't...is where its gets real sad...because many do....even Jesus did not save everyone he met.....Jesus never, ever chased down the rich young ruler....he let him go....

Well, there is certainly merit in what you are saying brother. However I think the example of the rich young ruler exemplifies those that were NEVER saved to begin with. (Although in his case we don't know if he repented and accepted Jesus).

This is always the distinction we struggle with. I can't find a single person in Scripture that ACCEPTED Jesus, and then either forsook their faith, or God cast them away.

Now there are GROUPS of people Scripture refers to, but I believe if we dig deep enough it always turns out that this passage applies:
[h=1]1 John 2:19New King James Version (NKJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that NONE of them WERE of us.

On differences like eternal assurance, although I do think it can be very damaging to believe in a saved person losing salvation, (a true oxymoron right there lol!) I look to see if that individual believes Jesus rose from the Grave, and has confessed Him as Lord, and trust THAT Jesus HAS INDEED permanently saved them through THAT Gospel.

Peace, Grace, and Love to you! I hope you don't hold my faith in eternal security through Jesus against me brother.[/FONT]

 

[Ahwatukee]

Ok so let me put it this way is baring fruits from the believer a once in a life time event ?

No, bearing fruit of the Spirit is a life time process. As we continue in faith throughout our lives we are bearing fruit, meaning that we are becoming more and more like Christ.

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

Throughout the believers life, God is pruning the believer so that he becomes even more fruitful.

 

[Jackson123]

A good example of faith without works would be the Levite and the priest as demonstrated below:

===========================================================

[/COLOR]“A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him, beat him, and went away, leaving him half dead.

Now by chance a priest was going down the same road, but when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

So too, when a Levite came to that spot and saw him, he passed by on the other side.

But when a Samaritan on a journey came upon him, he looked at him and had compassion. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Take care of him,’ he said, ‘and on my return I will repay you for any additional expense.’

=====================================================================

Another good example, would be the rich man and Lazarus found in Luke 16:19-31

yep, James explain

James 2


15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

 

[Ahwatukee]

tell me when you say the process will continue until you are changed ,,,,, is this the same rule for everyone ? ?????????

No, I said the process will continue until you're dead or until we are gathered and changed into those immortal and glorified bodies. We will never meet God's standards of righteousness in this life and in this body of flesh. In the mean time we are becoming more and more like him throughout our life time, if we remain in him.

 

[JIMBO43]

No, bearing fruit of the Spirit is a life time process. As we continue in faith throughout our lives we are bearing fruit, meaning that we are becoming more and more like Christ.

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

Throughout the believers life, God is pruning the believer so that he becomes even more fruitful.

ok so lets get this straight from your logic your saying those who bare fruits will have there bad fruits cut away ?


this i can accept and this is part of John but im not speaking of those who bare fruits ? im speaking of those who dont bare fruits.. as illustrated here 1 john [SUP]6 [/SUP]If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. [SUP]7 [/SUP]If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. [SUP]8 [/SUP]By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.


do you agree to abide in God is to bare fruits ?


Now why would God even mention this if it was not real ? is he just warning us here ? is God just saying here nobody connected to my vine will perish ?

I dont think so hes saying people connected to my vine can be cut of all together and thrown in the fire...


so once again i ask you is your faith the same as anyone else connected to the vine ?

you seem to be saying anyone connected to the vine will have there bad fruits cut away and you seem to be saying that the good fruits you bare will only come from the vine keeper ?

This is not so according to this 1 john Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit..


[SUP]6 [/SUP]If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers;



once again i ask you what you believe is that the same rule for everyone ?

Once again i ask is baring good fruit a once in a lifetime event..

 

[Jackson123]

Well, there is certainly merit in what you are saying brother. However I think the example of the rich young ruler exemplifies those that were NEVER saved to begin with. (Although in his case we don't know if he repented and accepted Jesus).

This is always the distinction we struggle with. I can't find a single person in Scripture that ACCEPTED Jesus, and then either forsook their faith, or God cast them away.

Now there are GROUPS of people Scripture refers to, but I believe if we dig deep enough it always turns out that this passage applies:
1 John 2:19New King James Version (NKJV)

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that NONE of them WERE of us.

On differences like eternal assurance, although I do think it can be very damaging to believe in a saved person losing salvation, (a true oxymoron right there lol!) I look to see if that individual believes Jesus rose from the Grave, and has confessed Him as Lord, and trust THAT Jesus HAS INDEED permanently saved them through THAT Gospel.

Peace, Grace, and Love to you! I hope you don't hold my faith in eternal security through Jesus against me brother.

They went out from us but not one of us is talking about the antichrist.

 

[JIMBO43]

No, I said the process will continue until you're dead or until we are gathered and changed into those immortal and glorified bodies. We will never meet God's standards of righteousness in this life and in this body of flesh. In the mean time we are becoming more and more like him throughout our life time, if we remain in him.

where does it say the process will continue untill your dead ?

 

[mailmandan]

2 Corinthians 1:22 New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]22 [/SUP]set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

There is a guarantee there..

Amen! Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words:

<1,,728,arrabon> originally, "earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser and forfeited if the purchase was not completed, was probably a Phoenician word, introduced into Greece. In general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; in Ephesians 1:14; 4:30 particularly of their eternal inheritance.

 

[Ahwatukee]

ok so lets get this straight from your logic your saying those who bare fruits will have there bad fruits cut away ?


this i can accept and this is part of John but im not speaking of those who bare fruits ? im speaking of those who dont bare fruits.. as illustrated here 1 john [SUP]6 [/SUP]If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. [SUP]7 [/SUP]If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. [SUP]8 [/SUP]By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.


do you agree to abide in God is to bare fruits ?


Now why would God even mention this if it was not real ? is he just warning us here ? is God just saying here nobody connected to my vine will perish ?

I dont think so hes saying people connected to my vine can be cut of all together and thrown in the fire...


so once again i ask you is your faith the same as anyone else connected to the vine ?

you seem to be saying anyone connected to the vine will have there bad fruits cut away and you seem to be saying that the good fruits you bare will only come from the vine keeper ?

This is not so according to this 1 john Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit..


[SUP]6 [/SUP]If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers;



once again i ask you what you believe is that the same rule for everyone ?

Once again i ask is baring good fruit a once in a lifetime event..

I think the better question is what are you trying to proclaim? Where do you stand? What is the problem that you are having regarding this teaching?

 

[JIMBO43]

No, I said the process will continue until you're dead or until we are gathered and changed into those immortal and glorified bodies. We will never meet God's standards of righteousness in this life and in this body of flesh. In the mean time we are becoming more and more like him throughout our life time, if we remain in him.

i have to re comment here sorry but your post is that of someone who doesnt hold much hope for your self..

We can have Gods standards..
[h=1]Galatians 5:22-23New International Version (NIV)[/h] [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [SUP]23 [/SUP]gentleness and self-control.

 

[JIMBO43]

I think the better question is what are you trying to proclaim? Where do you stand? What is the problem that you are having regarding this teaching?

not what i proclaim but God proclaims him self and in person speaking to his deciples and as the scriptures say we are to make deciples of one another... a deciple is someone who follows Jesus and not as some would say deciples are only the chosen.. You have to choose to its not a one way street..

 

[JIMBO43]

Amen! Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words:

<1,,728,arrabon> originally, "earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser and forfeited if the purchase was not completed, was probably a Phoenician word, introduced into Greece. In general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; in Ephesians 1:14; 4:30 particularly of their eternal inheritance.

so are you also declaring to that all that is written in 1 john 1-16 does not apply to those born of the spirit ? or as some would say the true believer or as others would say the done deal ?

 

[Ahwatukee]

not what i proclaim but God proclaims him self and in person speaking to his deciples and as the scriptures say we are to make deciples of one another... a deciple is someone who follows Jesus and not as some would say deciples are only the chosen.. You have to choose to its not a one way street..

Well, anyone who is following Jesus would be one who is remaining in the vine and therefore would continue to bear fruit, which as scripture demonstrates and as I provided, is a life-long process.

 

[JIMBO43]

26It is good that he waits silently For the salvation of the LORD.

36You need to persevere, so that after you have done God’s will, you will receive what He has promised

19My beloved brothers, understand this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to anger,…

1 Corinthians 15:23-28The Message (MSG)

[SUP]21-28 [/SUP]There is a nice symmetry in this: Death initially came by a man, and resurrection from death came by a man. Everybody dies in Adam; everybody comes alive in Christ. But we have to wait our turn: (we who are born of the first fruits have to wait paitiently for our salvation) Christ is first, then those with him at his Coming, the grand consummation when, after crushing the opposition, he hands over his kingdom to God the Father. He won’t let up until the last enemy is down —and the very last enemy is death! As the psalmist said, “He laid them low, one and all; he walked all over them.” When Scripture says that “he walked all over them,” it’s obvious that he couldn’t at the same time be walked on. When everything and everyone is finally under God’s rule, the Son will step down, taking his place with everyone else, showing that God’s rule is absolutely comprehensive—a perfect ending!

 

[mailmandan]

so are you also declaring to that all that is written in 1 john 1-16 does not apply to those born of the spirit ? or as some would say the true believer or as others would say the done deal ?

1 John 1-16?

 

[JIMBO43]

Well, anyone who is following Jesus would be one who is remaining in the vine and therefore would continue to bear fruit, which as scripture demonstrates and as I provided, is a life-long process.

well always sounds like i couldnt care when ever someone starts there sentence with well this way its often the case.. and judging from your lack of hope of meeting Gods standards i would say that is so.