Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

Eternal security dismisses believers apostasy......the Bible teaches Believers apostasy in great detail...the spirit of error in eternal security comes about because many think God is simply to good to send anyone to hell....some eternal security specialists have failed to remember that God does not send people to hell...people and their unbelief send them to hell.....some current grace alone and easy believing theologies today are cleverly disguised as universal-ism...

Biblical eternal security is predicated upon covenant relationship and abiding.....If you Know Jesus and Father and they know you...you have nothing at all to worry about....

Lack of eternal security dismisses people ability to grow, and continue to have faith in Jesus, it takes a persons hope of being IN CHRIST, and forces them into an attempted hope based on performance.

Anyone who has been chastened by God for sin, understands you can not just go out and do what you think you can do with no consequences and get away with it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree universalism is unbiblical.we have a few "universalist christians" on the forum.

Which is why people need to recognize that there are more than TWO groups and start talking to individuals instead of blanket "us" versus "them" statements.

The division is GOD versus the lies the world has taught all of us.

From what I have seen is it always turns into a calvin vs arminain vs roman argument, Instead of trying to figure out what people believe, We see keywords, like works, or osas. and go into attack mode based on the three perspectives.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is no walk without confidence, only fear.

Fear or a false sense of security, which comes from religion, as long as I am doing these things, I am ok,, As long as I am not doing those things, I am ok.

Instead of basing our hope and confidence in christ, Which says continue to walk forward. But when you fall back, do not lose Hope. Take your chastening and know God loves you and continue to walk forward.

The prodigal son fully expected to be shunned by the father, and never expected to be let back in, In fear, he offered to become a servant, Yet his father the first time he set eyes on him already forgave him, and set him right where he belonged, as his son.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

this is covenant relationship...You desire God and he desires you and the redemptive work of Christ ratifies the relationship...


Now Jesus & Father never divorce anyone, nor do they leave them......but people divorce Jesus & Father all the time....

John Wesley called this divorce, apostasy, and said it could be final and there were only 2 reasons for a permanent fall from grace, willful unconfessed sin and actual expression of apostasy....Wesley believed that most apostasy was not final....and could be rectified....he stated this, because it is what the Bible teaches...

Hebrews said apostasy was final. If we can fall away, we can never be renewed.

People apostatize when they lack faith to begin with, Not because they had true faith, Was made a child of God, and given all things as an inheritance, and have actually experienced first hand the love of God.

they apostatize when they play church, and realise that nothing has ever happened to them which would show them Gods true love, they never experienced it, so they have nothing to base it on, and end up going back to whatever their true faith was always in, Be it religion, the world or people they left behind.

Thats what they alway us loved, and that's what they go back to. As a dog. they always return to their vomit.

There is no hope in saying someone can apostatize, One would have to always live in fear. even if they deny it, That one day they may do that themselves. Because no one can know the future.

 

[Grace777x70]

I already explained about IN HIM "in the vine" (not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established when Christ spoke those words) and the TWO KINDS OF CONNECTIONS with Christ as the vine in post #23532.

Yes - scripture is very clear. There is a "cosmic" aspect to Christ's work on the cross.

All people of the world were included in Christ's work on the cross. Rom. 5 speaks of this as does 2 Cor. 5:14.

They must believe in order to receive what Christ has already done in His finished work.

There is a vast difference between a universal atonement and "universalism" which says that all dogs go to heaven.

1 Timothy 4:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

2 Corinthians 5:19 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.


We see a picture of this when the 2 thieves "were crucified with Him".

The fact that the Holy Spirit put in the truth of the 2 thieves "being crucified with Him" in all 4 gospel accounts shows the importance of it.

One believed and the other didn't. When people receive the gospel message of the forgiveness of sins - these remain/abide/stay in Christ - those that do not - will be cut off.

The other aspect to this is that we "believers" need to live by Christ's finished work in order to bear fruit unto God. It is His life that bears the fruit.

We don't "generate" fruit on our own - we abide in Christ's life and His life produces the "sap" for fruit-bearing as He alone is the true Vine. Without Him and His finished work on the cross and resurrection - we can do nothing.

Truth is like an onion - it has many facets to it...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Just because none of this is possible without God does not preclude our responsibility to do all those things. We do it through a reliance on the power of God, not our ability, surely. But, generally speaking, He won't do anything for you that you do not seek him in and rely on him to do.

This is where so many Christians go wrong, terribly wrong. They take a false comfort out of not seeking him for the power to be everything they are to be, not realizing that their laziness is really just a lazy lack of faith in, and a contempt for the grace they have received. Grace to seek God and be changed, not grace to live comfortably in ongoing sin as the church is being taught grace is these days.

If people are lazy, I trust God will do as he promised and chasten them, and get them back on the right track, if nothign else. make their lives so miserable that they are left with really no choice (I have experienced this when I was a prodigal)

Saying if that person does not get right, he will go to hell, after they have been saved, and using this as motivation to try to get them back in fellowship. may at most scare them to come back for awhile. but will never cause any long lasting restoration, Only fear.

Fear does not get us to do Gods will, The law and Israels response proved that,, Security of being in Christ, and his guidance does..

Who here has done anything God asked them to and been disappointed, who here has tried to do the same under ones own power. and seen great victory?

God is faithful, When we walk in him, there is no question of his love and his ways are so much better.

The more we walk, the more we realise this fact..

 

[dcontroversal]

Can't speak for the many, but some have tried to attempt to state that it is an invitation to a gift that fulfills and completes what we cannot do for ourselves. Works? What is it? It's many things, but it cannot supplement the gift. That's the only point of contention, nothing more.

AMEN and exactly the point of this thread........

 

[PHart]

Lack of eternal security dismisses people ability to grow, and continue to have faith in Jesus, it takes a persons hope of being IN CHRIST, and forces them into an attempted hope based on performance.

I do not believe in OSAS and I assure you this is not even remotely happening in me, lol.
The truth is, the fact that I can show contempt for God's grace has taught me to shrink before him in helplessness when I'm being defeated by sin. That's hardly a performance based belief in God and somehow trusting in myself, lol.

Anyone who has been chastened by God for sin, understands you can not just go out and do what you think you can do with no consequences and get away with it.

That's what OSASer's say. It's just that they think the only consequences are that they lose rewards. And the way many Christians live it's apparent they don't even care about those! Speaking from their viewpoint of OSAS, it's like they are okay with giving up the only thing they think they can lose (rewards) in exchange for a godless, uninterested, lazy, undisciplined, sinful, so-called 'Christian' life now. Hebrews says all they have to look forward to is the wrath of God that the enemies of God are going to get (as opposed to the chastisement of the sons of God).

 

[JIMBO43]

My faith is in christ, Not my ability to be good. My Ability to ot fall into sin, My Ability to maintain myself. My Ability to keep the faith, Not my ability to do anything.

In God.

Again, Where is yours?

My faith is in what is proclaimed.. I recieve goodness from his vine and daily bread..

in recieving his Goodness i express his fruits carry his honor and dignity and proclaim that what he teaches..


I know if i dont express his fruits his Goodness is no longer working in me.. coz i am no longer expressing them..


What does it mean to carry his dignity and his honor ?


Does it mean i should walk by whilst an elderly lady gets mugged ?

Does it mean i should go round chopping hands off and chopping heads off ?

Does it mean i should declare im the done deal ?

 

[FranC]

I already explained about IN HIM "in the vine" (not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established when Christ spoke those words) and the TWO KINDS OF CONNECTIONS with Christ as the vine in post #23532.

MMD,

No matter how you want to explain it..

According to JESUS there are only two "types" or classes of people
Those that are born from above, and those who are not.

John 3:3
John 3:5-7

John 3:18-21

Also...

Luke 9:50
Mark 9:40

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


John 3:3-7 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born [a]again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?”

5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’




John 3:18-21 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the [a]only begotten Son of God.

19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”



Luke 9:50 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

50 But Jesus said to him, “Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is [a]for you.”



Mark 9:40 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

40 For he who is not against us is [a]for us.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


It would seem, from Jesus' own words, that there are only two categories of pesons.
I may be wrong, but it sounds like you're creating a third.

So there is only ONE type of connection IN Christ...

You're either connected to him via the vine,
or you're not.

If you ARE connected to Him via the vine, and you are a branch, He clearly states that the branch must bear fruit.

We can't get away from this... explain it as you will.

We're either IN CHRIST or we're not.
If we are, He expects us to bear fruit.

 

[PHart]

Fear does not get us to do Gods will, The law and Israels response proved that,, Security of being in Christ, and his guidance does..

Paul certainly disagrees with you:

"...you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness..." (Romans 11:20-22 NASB)

The interesting part is, I've posted this in response to forum folks who insist that God does not use fear. They read it, and then they continue to think God does not use fear. Indoctrinations are very, very powerful things.

 

[Grace777x70]

The context of Romans 11 has been talked about many times in the past so this is nothing new.


Romans 11:20-22 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;

[SUP]21 [/SUP] for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either
.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.


This is not speaking on a personal level. This chapter speaks about the Jewish nation and the Gentiles. This is not saying that an individual who has the promise that the Lord will never leave them nor forsake them (Hebrews 13:5) will be rejected by the Lord.

But just as the Jews rejected their Messiah and therefore, as a whole, have fallen from the favored status they once occupied, if the Gentile totally rejected Him, they could likewise be rejected and salvation passed on to some other group.

Fail to believe and receive the message of the forgiveness of sins in the gospel message and all people will be "cut off" from the life that is available to them in Christ.

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

 

[JIMBO43]

Here's the problem...:

Jimbo does not have a disagreement with the bible.

It is those who do not understand good deeds, of which Jesus spoke many times, that have a disagreement with the New Testament and the words of Jesus.

Here, again, are the words of Jesus, as Jimbo posted them:


2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.

5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.


It's very simple.
IF we abide in Christ, we are able to bear fruit (do good deeds or works).
If we bear fruit, God prumes us to make us better, which is what you're saying.

If WE DO NOT bear fruit, we are thrown away like a branch and we wither and are gathered up and burned.


What could be more clear?
Did Jesus not know what He was saying??


(I will not remain on this thread)

amen fran thanks for the support.. Its true that our deeds are judged.. and our deeds are also theese fruits that we must bare from recieving the seed and the blood that harvests those deeds (fruits etc). the blood that continues to flow each day must harvest fruits.. if that seed does not it is cut off to prevent contamination..

As the bible proclaims what ever you do to my least you do to all and what ever you do to one part of your body you do to all of your body..


if we do not bare theese deeds theese fruits then we get cut of we become an enemy The lord will not stop until every enemy is crushed.. tell me two thousand years after christ and still he hasnt returned,, that must mean an awful lot of enemies..

Didnt God say he will write his laws on all from the least to the greatest ? Didnt God say no longer will you have to say know the lord coz alll will know the lord ?..

tell me if all knew The lord the right way then why hasnt the lord returned yet ?

 

[dcontroversal]

I believe covenant relationship best defines the nearly to good to be true Gospel and it's truth lies between reformed Covenant Theology and Wesleyan Arminianism Covenant theology......especially in regards to the doctrine of Apostasy....

The truth is a single coin with 2 sides....many here have tried to attempt to state what it is, but the OSAS crowd does not want discussion they want to be right...

God has and always will be a covenant God...The remedy is the free gift of Jesus Christ and him crucified, buried and risen....and the gift's eternal security is based on free choice to remain in covenant relationship or not....Jesus said in John 17.3 to KNOW him and Father are eternal life....

[SUP]3 [/SUP]This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

If God kept me against my wishes and my belief it would make God a man that would lie....it also means that Satan and 1/3 of the angels would have never fell<<<<<<<<<<<<that single fact should prove to OSAS people the fallacy of part of their entire message....The central theme to any creation of God is that they are given free choice to believe or not and at any time....Calvin got this wrong and so infected much of the body with the leaven of eternal security.....

To know God and Jesus Christ is more than mere faith in what Jesus did for us on the cross.....it is to become one with him....and his sacrifice....

When Jesus says I never knew you in Matt 7, it is the very same word he uses in John 17.3 and it means depart from me, because you were never one with me....

Many here pound their fists that they have faith given to them and know Jesus and Father and have zero to worry about.....that is certainly a correct, but only a one sided view of the coin of 2 parts......the other side asks.....Does Jesus and Father have faith in you and do they know you....

Nahum 1.7

The Lord is good,
A stronghold in the day of trouble,
And He knows those who take refuge in Him.

Someone posed this scenario to a group of us in Bible a study:

You have died and Jesus meets you at the gate of Paradise and asks why you belong. and why he should let you in.....Oh the answers that came out are much like some of the peeps on this thread...I am written in the book of life....he saved me...he did this, he passively worked in my life...a young minister schooled all of us....their answer?

"The fact he knows me is enough....."

a. What makes YOUR belief any more valid than anyone's belief?

b. False...We attempt to post and have dialogue and then get accused of easy believism and a live as we please life of sin because we believe in eternal security

c. Agreed..to KNOW the FATHER is to KNOW eternal life...JESUS said if you have seen me you have seen the FATHER and the FATHER's will is to BELIEVE on JESUS....

d. Be not removed from the simplicity that is found in Christ...it takes a child like faith to be born into the kingdom of GOD ot some religious exercise or some religious litmus test

e. Jesus never knew them because their faith was in their works and claim to know JESUS, they attempted a different DOOR other than genuine faith into the finished work of Christ Galatians 1 and 3 for one

f. Jesus is the BEGINNER and FINISHER of the faith that saves IN ALL who believe, HE will complete his task....HE does not start a work of faith in someone and then NOT bring it to fruition....

g. I do not believe there will be a question of why we should be let in...a misnomer and nothing more than speculation....it will be obvious by a) Which side you are standing on---or----where you are when you die----or which judgment you stand at---- I.E> the BEMA SEAT or the GREAT WHITE THRONE

 

[JIMBO43]

The context of Romans 11 has been talked about many times in the past so this is nothing new.


Romans 11:20-22 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;

[SUP]21 [/SUP] for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either
.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.


This is not speaking on a personal level. This chapter speaks about the Jewish nation and the Gentiles. This is not saying that an individual who has the promise that the Lord will never leave them nor forsake them (Hebrews 13:5) will be rejected by the Lord.

But just as the Jews rejected their Messiah and therefore, as a whole, have fallen from the favored status they once occupied, if the Gentile totally rejected Him, they could likewise be rejected and salvation passed on to some other group.

Fail to believe and receive the message of the forgiveness of sins in the gospel message and all people will be "cut off" from the life that is available to them in Christ.

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

the message is for all believers to proclaim to all nations making deciples out of them..

 

[dcontroversal]

Gifts are by definition not examples. OSAS is a trigger term, let's dispense with it.
1 Corinthians 1
8 He will sustain you to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And technically, you and I need that insurance and that box checked. It does not eliminate us from the equation, it's a completion. Now we can live in the confidence that He purchased.

AMEN...saved to the uttermost.......and KEPT by the power of GOD...............

 

[JIMBO43]

If people are lazy, I trust God will do as he promised and chasten them,

[/QUOTE]as long as you are baring fruits he will... the new order btw..

 

[Grace777x70]

The context of Romans 11 has been talked about many times in the past so this is nothing new.


Romans 11:20-22 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;

[SUP]21 [/SUP] for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either
.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.


This is not speaking on a personal level. This chapter speaks about the Jewish nation and the Gentiles. This is not saying that an individual who has the promise that the Lord will never leave them nor forsake them (Hebrews 13:5) will be rejected by the Lord.

But just as the Jews rejected their Messiah and therefore, as a whole, have fallen from the favored status they once occupied, if the Gentile totally rejected Him, they could likewise be rejected and salvation passed on to some other group.

Fail to believe and receive the message of the forgiveness of sins in the gospel message and all people will be "cut off" from the life that is available to them in Christ.

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Time ran out - I also attempted to add this statement.

Jesus said that there would be tares amongst us wheat in every church. This letter would have been read to them as well as the true believers in the assembly.

We often find this happening in the letter from the apostles. - talking to those that don't really know Christ yet and have not believed yet. For example to the Corinthians - Paul says - to examine yourself to see if Christ is in you.

This in Rom 11 would have "spoken" to them. Paul had just got finished speaking the "gospel" to them in Romans 10:9-10

Romans 10:8-13 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

[SUP]10 [/SUP]for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

[SUP]12 [/SUP] For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

[SUP]13 [/SUP] for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

 

[LoveGodForever]

Paul certainly disagrees with you:

"...you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness..." (Romans 11:20-22 NASB)

The interesting part is, I've posted this in response to forum folks who insist that God does not use fear. They read it, and then they continue to think God does not use fear. Indoctrinations are very, very powerful things.

Psa 111:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments : his praise endureth for ever.

Heb 10:30-31
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Rev 14:7,
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

 

[JIMBO43]

And yet you continue to avoid my question. What are you in disagreement about? You have not made that clear. And please don't judge my faithfulness. You know absolutely nothing about my life in Christ.

Also, please explain as to how I am playing God? I've only provided scripture to you in response to your posts. You're not making any sense!

Im not judging im only stating what you have told us about your self..


Its you who are making me out to be judging coz you cant handle your beliefs being questioned..

Did i say to you that you cant have standards or you cant meet Gods standards ... nope you said that..

i didnt force feed you into saying this..


Did i say God will continue to cut of your bad fruits until the day you die ? nope you said that not i..


Do i proclaim to be better than you ,,,, noop you do that by saying i am being Judgemental of you..


Quite often when people say you dont know me they quite often dont want you to get to know them etc ... tell me is this How people of the vine should be ?