The Doctrine of Hell: Under Attack

Jimbone · Aug 10, 2017

Wow, you are something else. First of all where in the world did I peddle fear? Can you provide the quote please? Second you're not nearly as smart as you think you are, while I know Ahwatukee believes in it strongly, I don't believe in the pre-trib rapture at all and you have been completely wrong about what I believe multiple times now.

You also have NO CLUE on my evangelism tactics or style. You make all these assumptions and then attack me with false premises. You speak of all the "love and mercy" of God, yet display none of it yourself. Maybe a few question to the person you're attacking would help you to understand exactly where they stand and what they truly believe, before you start cutting them down for what you've made them in your own head, and judging from this comment you have me pegged COMPLETELY WRONG.

You really need to slow your role a bit and calm down because you are making a fool of yourself and reflecting very poorly on the God you claim to serve. Also how on earth do you know you "grew up with deceivers like you (me)", when you don't even know me AT ALL, a fact made so very evident from multiple completely wrong judgments you've already made about me. Do you just enjoy fighting, name calling, accusing, and correcting people? For no valid reason I might add? Why don't you ask a few questions before you start just spitting venom the way you have here. I honestly thing we are probably not as far off in what we believe as you've already concluded in ignorance, but you wouldn't know that because you've already decided you know everything I believe. I'm not sure we can even have a decent conversation at this point, but if you can drop this false notion of what you think I am. I would be more than happy to share what I believe, how I was saved am came to the truth, and what I agree with you on, and how I approach sharing the Gospel with others and listen to yours as well, if you're even interested. If not then have a nice day.

Stephen63 · Aug 10, 2017

Meggido said:

More scare tactics, what should we expect from a false teacher peddling false rapture and dispensation theology....you guys always spread FUD----Fear Uncertainty Doubt...you have to spread FUD to make your rapture and dispensations work out...

The wisdom the Holy Spirit convicts a non-believer is knowing that God demonstrates His own love toward you, in that while you were yet a sinner, Christ died for us.

I grew up with deceivers like you...going around scaring people into salvation....fear and terror to come to salvation are not of God and if you think it is, maybe you better check the hand your holding and make sure it is the Hand of Jesus....

Jesus never once ran after anyone who rejected him and reminded them that if they did not believe him they were doing to hell....he left them alone...and continued down the road...

Again, you're waaay outta line.

Ahwatukee argues with no one, so quit building straw men against him.

valiant · Aug 10, 2017

Stephen63 said:

open you eyes

Of course he does. That is why we are here

valiant · Aug 10, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

News flash for Willie! It is a dooms day warning! It's called "the day of the Lord." All of the OT prophets described it in the following manner:

============================================================
See, the day of the Lord is coming—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it.

The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.

I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless.

I will make people scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir.

Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the Lord Almighty, in the day of his burning anger.

=======================================================

This time of wrath and fierce anger will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

It is the end of the world! As a result of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, the majority of the population of the earth will be decimated and all human government will be dismantled.

The book of Revelation though written to the literal churches of that time, is also to the entire church period and those who will be caught in that time period of God's wrath.

So, which part of "a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger" did you not understand?

its actually the revelation of Jesus Christ

He bore witness to the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ

Bladerunner · Aug 10, 2017

JaumeJ said:

Hades is the kingdom of the dead in Greek mythology.

Having studied linguistics at the University of Illinois, Champaign-Urbana, when I pass on what I know it is with some qualification.

Hell is not in the Tanakh. The first converts to teh faith of Abraham leanrned from the Tankh only

If your goal is to paganize the Word as taught by Jesus and teh Twelve Apostles, go for your goal, but
it is a perversion of the teachings of the Word.

It forms jsut a tiny part of what is known as teh apostasy.

You are correct if your manner of changinglanguage is accepted by some, but ony for some

I am not going to attempt to convince anyone who cannot discern etymologies of words
as having perverted the Word of God from the actual reality of our forefathers' experience.

At this point I confess I cannot be labeled a christian for I am of the faith of Abraham thanks to
Jesus the Messiah.

As long as you and your people are jsut christian, you cannever understand how we are of teh Israel of God.

No........I cannot be named Hebrwe Roots, Jews for Jesus or the like, I am of the faith of Abraham as taught
by our Lord ans Savior, Jesus Christ...or do you call HIm Yeshua.

i would think you would be the faith of Jesus Christ.

valiant · Aug 10, 2017

by the way the time period of God's wrath is now Rom 1.18

Bladerunner · Aug 10, 2017

JaumeJ said:

I have come to the opinion that you don't what your talking about.

Deut 32:22 "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

Hell is mentioned 54 times in the KJV and by the way,,,,Deut. is in the first 5 books of the Bible ( Tanahk), I think,,of course I could be wrong.

Go back an reread your Bible,,,It appears you did not comprehend any of it the first time!

valiant · Aug 10, 2017

Bladerunner said:

Hmmmm Are you any better, It says literally, 'and shall burn unto the lowest sheol'. Sheol means the grave world, not what we know of as Hell

Sheol is mentioned in OT meaning the grave world. In the NT we have hades (for both good and bad) and gehenna which are two different places.

you too??

Bladerunner · Aug 10, 2017

valiant said:

You too like to play on words as well......... Yes, I know of Sheol' and Hades........ That was not what I was responding to.

I realize a long time ago,there is no use arguing scriptures. The KJV of Shoel is HELL...take it or leave it....... I don't care one way or the other.

valiant · Aug 10, 2017

Bladerunner said:

I think the Bereans would be ashamed of you

Nehemiah6 · Aug 10, 2017

To all. There is really no need for personal attacks. Just state your case with biblical support. Some want the truth. Others are wilfully blind.

Magenta · Aug 10, 2017

Nehemiah6 said:

Do you practice what you preach? I would say not.

PrynceNY · Aug 10, 2017

Nehemiah6 said:

Unfortunately some cannot handle when their disagreed with or their doctrine is attacked. But yea it's better to agree to disagree and move on.

Ahwatukee · Aug 10, 2017

Bladerunner said:

Hello BladeRunner, excuse me for high-jacking your post to correct Valiant. Sheol/Hades does not mean "Sheol is mentioned in OT meaning the grave world." It is defined as the following:

Sheol (sheh-ole') The underworld (place to which the spirits of people descend at death)
Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates -- grave, hell, pit.

Hades (hah'-dace) The unseen world: hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which the unrighteous dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.

UnderGrace · Aug 10, 2017

Yup been there too

Jimbone said:

Wow, you are something else. First of all where in the world did I peddle fear? Can you provide the quote please? Second you're not nearly as smart as you think you are, while I know Ahwatukee believes in it strongly, I don't believe in the pre-trib rapture at all and you have been completely wrong about what I believe multiple times now.

You also have NO CLUE on my evangelism tactics or style. You make all these assumptions and then attack me with false premises. You speak of all the "love and mercy" of God, yet display none of it yourself. Maybe a few question to the person you're attacking would help you to understand exactly where they stand and what they truly believe, before you start cutting them down for what you've made them in your own head, and judging from this comment you have me pegged COMPLETELY WRONG.

You really need to slow your role a bit and calm down because you are making a fool of yourself and reflecting very poorly on the God you claim to serve. Also how on earth do you know you "grew up with deceivers like you (me)", when you don't even know me AT ALL, a fact made so very evident from multiple completely wrong judgments you've already made about me. Do you just enjoy fighting, name calling, accusing, and correcting people? For no valid reason I might add? Why don't you ask a few questions before you start just spitting venom the way you have here. I honestly thing we are probably not as far off in what we believe as you've already concluded in ignorance, but you wouldn't know that because you've already decided you know everything I believe. I'm not sure we can even have a decent conversation at this point, but if you can drop this false notion of what you think I am. I would be more than happy to share what I believe, how I was saved am came to the truth, and what I agree with you on, and how I approach sharing the Gospel with others and listen to yours as well, if you're even interested. If not then have a nice day.

Magenta · Aug 10, 2017

People make up all kinds of things, like saying that the parable of the rich man and
Lazarus cannot be a parable because names are used, a real person is referenced.
WOW!!! Please can somebody, ANYBODY, show me where this rule is written?

Another thing naysayers do is cite one or two verses from the highly symbolic
apocalyptic literature of Revelation to counteract a multitude of Scripture and
REFUSE to deal with the multitude of Scripture that proclaim right from the first
declaration out of the mouth of God about the consequence of sin: DEATH. It is
repeated over and over and over and over again but people say somehow I am
the one ignoring Scripture. Quite frankly it gets ridiculous. Utter destruction is
a perfectly legitimate and solidly Biblical backed view that aligns far more
with the nature of God than everybody's else's hell fire torture and torments.

Man is MORTAL. NOWHERE is man said to be immortal, nowhere is the soul
said the be immortal, Scripture EXPLICITLY states that only God is immortal.

Life is found only through faith in Christ. All else pass into the second death.
God says He never thought about burning people. He abhors the idea!

People want to believe there is going to be some torture chamber in the new
heaven and earth tucked away somewhere. It is one of those things that just
blows my mind, ya know? All things will be made new oh except for over here
we have the oven (lake of fire) to torture and torment those who rejected God.

Magenta · Aug 10, 2017

Jesus is Life. In Him we live, outside of Him is death. It does not get any simpler than that. Wanting to turn God into a sadistic monster Who is going to torture and torment people goes against everything anyone should believe about the goodness, mercy, and justice of God. Not to mention that He specifically said that the thought of burning people never entered His mind. But people are attached to and promote the lie of Satan at the heart of the fall of all creation: Thou shalt surely not die.

I can and have multiple times given reams of Scripture to support this view, explicit statements about death being the consequence of sin, how those who do not believe will be utterly destroyed. The most well known verse of Scripture from the mouth of Jesus Christ proclaims that those who do not believe on Him shall perish. People act like He does not know what He is talking about, and will slander me and lie about me and say I reject what the Word of God says even after I have posted the many many many Scriptures that say: death is the wages of sin. The nonbelievers go to the second death. The dead know nothing.

Somehow this view, what Scripture explicitly teaches, offends people.

Magenta · Aug 10, 2017

The soul is never said to be immortal. Scripture explicitly states only God is immortal. Hell, translated from the original Hebrew and Greek words Gehenna, Sheol, Hades, and Tartarus, is simply a holding place of the dead until the resurrection and judgment of all. Death and hell are eventually thrown into the lake of fire. The second death is the utter destruction of both body and soul.

There are many many many Scriptures that attest to the fact that death is the final everlasting punishment for the person who refuses to accept the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ as a covering for their sin.

The lost perish and are no more.

Strong's concordance word #622 = Perish

apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)

Short Definition: I destroy, lose, am perishing
Definition: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am
perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).

HELPS Word-studies

622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).

622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from apo and same as olethros
Definition
to destroy, destroy utterly

Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad
that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but
rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the Greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which
means to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish, make void.

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those
in the days of Noah (Luke 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all"
(not tortured). And it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29)
"destroyed them" (not tortured).

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that
whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So a person either receives eternal life, or they perish. Nothing about eternal torment there.

John 5:24, Jesus said
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has
eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift
of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him,
for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Please, note again: Destroy, not torture alive forever.

Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption
(phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish. The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from
the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The Greek word is olethron: destruction. From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruination, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction,
but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

James 1:15b
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

James 4:12a
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the
One who is able to save and to destroy;

2 Peter 3:7
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for
fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient
toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
If you are not alive you cannot be tormented!

Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

Revelation 2:11b
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in
Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ
will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.
How can it be any clearer?

Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.
The lake of fire was created for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us: the lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead!

After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever in their state of sin. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.

Ezekiel 18:4
The soul who sins will die.

Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.

Psalm 9:6
even the memory of them has perished.

Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.

Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:

Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed

Psalm 37:28b
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed

Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
the dead know nothing

Following the resurrection and judgment of all is when the mortal put on the
immortal, not before. Then too shall the corruptible put on the incorruptible.
See 1 Corinthians 15:54~ Death will be swallowed up in victory.

In fact, Jesus Christ has already overcome death.
Death and Hell will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Magenta · Aug 10, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

Hades and Sheol are used synonymously and do not indicate the place for the unrighteous dead but for all. In all the places where Sheol is found, there is not one that gives any countenance to the idea of a place of burning torment of the damned. It is always in the sense of the general hidden state of the dead -- all the dead -- good and bad alike. It is a term for the place of the dead.

valiant · Aug 10, 2017

Nehemiah6 said:

lol that's a personal attack

The Doctrine of Hell: Under Attack

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