Not By Works
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A
People who know me, know I post in love.
The issue was what I said, not how I said it.
Some people can't handle being questioned and would rather ignore anyone who doesn't agree with them or tell them how wonderful they are,
It's the same reason why some people rebel at the thought that the Holy spirit convicts/corrects/chastens His children when they sin...Some prefer to believe God ignores His kids bad behavior.
God isn't like the bad little girl's parents that ignore her torturing a dog until she gets bite.
God sends people to tell the little girl to stop, he sends CPA agents to investigate parental neglect, he causes the Dad to go to AA meetings and the mom to take anger management classes. He changes all their hearts and minds and frees them from the lies and teaches them how to love because He loves and forgives a d heals them.
There were many choices one could have made in response to my post...the loving one would be to patiently explain what is meant by the word passive...the worldly one was to get offended and throw a tantrum.
So how exactly should I have reworded my post to show "tenderness"?
As a reference for the future. Not that it matters with this individual since I have placed her on ignore.
I don't believe in trying to fellowship with anyone who has thus rejected me.
The issue was what I said, not how I said it.
Some people can't handle being questioned and would rather ignore anyone who doesn't agree with them or tell them how wonderful they are,
It's the same reason why some people rebel at the thought that the Holy spirit convicts/corrects/chastens His children when they sin...Some prefer to believe God ignores His kids bad behavior.
God isn't like the bad little girl's parents that ignore her torturing a dog until she gets bite.
God sends people to tell the little girl to stop, he sends CPA agents to investigate parental neglect, he causes the Dad to go to AA meetings and the mom to take anger management classes. He changes all their hearts and minds and frees them from the lies and teaches them how to love because He loves and forgives a d heals them.
There were many choices one could have made in response to my post...the loving one would be to patiently explain what is meant by the word passive...the worldly one was to get offended and throw a tantrum.
So how exactly should I have reworded my post to show "tenderness"?
As a reference for the future. Not that it matters with this individual since I have placed her on ignore.
I don't believe in trying to fellowship with anyone who has thus rejected me.
Last edited by a moderator:
I saw that this is the second time you asked this question Stephen and I want to try to share my own experience in case it may help.
It has been in two parts for me.
At first, I didn't see that I was nothing like our Lord. I thought I was quite humble, loving, gentle, forgiving, etc. I thought I displayed these fruits of the Spirit. Then a man I'd been talking with for a few years about God died. He never came to know God as far as I know, (but I have hope that on his deathbed God saved him.)
I used to always pray for him that God would open his eyes and humble him because he used to be the one to bring up the subject of God with me, but seemed to only ever want to arrogantly fight and argue about how the bible was written by just men, virgins can't give birth, etc. You know the arguing, I'm sure you've heard it from unbelievers.
After he died, I suddenly saw that I had not showed Him Gods' love but had instead had arrogant arguments, reviled back, acted as badly as him. Apologetics is not love. Apologetics can be discussed in love or they can be discussed in anger and arrogance.
When I realized I had not shown him love, I was destroyed. I was completely undone. It becomes really real after someone dies and you realize you showed absolutely NOTHING that would have wanted them to know God. You just acted like THEY acted. You didn't lay down your life for them at all.
So after He was able to show me that I wasn't showing love but just trying to win an argument, He began to show me my lack in all other virtue too. There was no humility, just arrogant argument. No love, just wanting to win. No gentleness, just reviling back when reviled instead of forgiving, holding awful grudges while at the same time thinking myself to be forgiving. And I saw how selfish I was. Whenever I would complain to Him about someone elses selfishness, He showed me all of the ways I was selfish and that I was hating their selfishness while embracing my own. (He drove it home with a piece of apple crisp believe it or not. There were only two pieces left so I hid one clear in the back of the fridge hoping no one would find it and I could have it later). He hounded me it felt like. Just every day, showing me that I was NOT how I had been perceiving myself to be and was even WORSE than those I complained about.
That's a lot of light to flood someone with at once. It's hard to see so clearly how you really are when you've convinced yourself you're nothing like that but are instead the sweetest little angel. It was painful the way walking out of a dark movie theatre and into daylight is painful. I didn't like it, but I SAW it.
Here's the second part. I began to try very hard to be good. This went on for years. I would try to be nice, kind, gentle, forgiving., because I didn't WANT to be bad and ugly. I wanted to be like my Lord!Then the nastiest and most rude person you could imagine would be thrown into my breathing space and I'd lose it on them really bad. So there went all of my attempts to be good and holy, right down the drain because of one nasty pissant who pushed my buttons. So then I would fall into a brooding depression and after a few days or weeks I'd pick myself up and resolve to try harder to be good. I'd try for some length of time and be sailing along pretty good (in my estimation
) and then dangit, ANOTHER nasty pissant would start pushing my buttons until I exploded on them.
After years of that repeating cycle of trying hard, then failure, then depression, then getting up and resolving to try harder, - one day I think I said something like...what good is it for You to show me how awful I am if I CAN"T ever be good for any length of time?? Will I never be good until I'm dead?? What's the point?? And I just gave up, in one second of time, I just gave up and saw that it was never going to happen. So I said, this is who I am. I am not good, I am not virtuous, I'm bad, and I can't ever be good. So if I am to be with even the smallest speck of virtue rather than just intermittent self-delusion, you will have to see to it because I'm not playing this make believe game any more.
Soon after - VERY soon - I began to see victories. I gained great control over my nasty tongue, I would be treated very mean and nasty by someone and my feelings wouldn't get hurt but instead I would LOVE and feel compassion for them in their pain and hatred. It was amazing and it seemed I wasn't me any more. I honestly felt like this couldn't be me. It was like....where is Jennie and what have you done with her??
Later I understood that I had been trying to be good by my own effort instead of believing Him to make me what He said He would.
So first, He had to show me there was no good thing in me because I was deceived and thought I was pretty good.But THEN, He had to get me to see that just knowing this and trying to change it wouldn't work, because all my attempts at righteousness were filthy, polluted and useless. I had to wait for and rely on Him to do something about it.
I know we all have our own experience and growth and it's very personal between us and Him, and we all have different ditches we fall into, but in answer to your question of HOW do we do it if it's already all been done?? - the answer is we don't do it, we can't, no matter how hard we try - He does. It's by trusting Him
It has been in two parts for me.
At first, I didn't see that I was nothing like our Lord. I thought I was quite humble, loving, gentle, forgiving, etc. I thought I displayed these fruits of the Spirit. Then a man I'd been talking with for a few years about God died. He never came to know God as far as I know, (but I have hope that on his deathbed God saved him.)
I used to always pray for him that God would open his eyes and humble him because he used to be the one to bring up the subject of God with me, but seemed to only ever want to arrogantly fight and argue about how the bible was written by just men, virgins can't give birth, etc. You know the arguing, I'm sure you've heard it from unbelievers.
After he died, I suddenly saw that I had not showed Him Gods' love but had instead had arrogant arguments, reviled back, acted as badly as him. Apologetics is not love. Apologetics can be discussed in love or they can be discussed in anger and arrogance.
When I realized I had not shown him love, I was destroyed. I was completely undone. It becomes really real after someone dies and you realize you showed absolutely NOTHING that would have wanted them to know God. You just acted like THEY acted. You didn't lay down your life for them at all.
So after He was able to show me that I wasn't showing love but just trying to win an argument, He began to show me my lack in all other virtue too. There was no humility, just arrogant argument. No love, just wanting to win. No gentleness, just reviling back when reviled instead of forgiving, holding awful grudges while at the same time thinking myself to be forgiving. And I saw how selfish I was. Whenever I would complain to Him about someone elses selfishness, He showed me all of the ways I was selfish and that I was hating their selfishness while embracing my own. (He drove it home with a piece of apple crisp believe it or not. There were only two pieces left so I hid one clear in the back of the fridge hoping no one would find it and I could have it later). He hounded me it felt like. Just every day, showing me that I was NOT how I had been perceiving myself to be and was even WORSE than those I complained about.
That's a lot of light to flood someone with at once. It's hard to see so clearly how you really are when you've convinced yourself you're nothing like that but are instead the sweetest little angel. It was painful the way walking out of a dark movie theatre and into daylight is painful. I didn't like it, but I SAW it.
Here's the second part. I began to try very hard to be good. This went on for years. I would try to be nice, kind, gentle, forgiving., because I didn't WANT to be bad and ugly. I wanted to be like my Lord!Then the nastiest and most rude person you could imagine would be thrown into my breathing space and I'd lose it on them really bad. So there went all of my attempts to be good and holy, right down the drain because of one nasty pissant who pushed my buttons. So then I would fall into a brooding depression and after a few days or weeks I'd pick myself up and resolve to try harder to be good. I'd try for some length of time and be sailing along pretty good (in my estimation
) and then dangit, ANOTHER nasty pissant would start pushing my buttons until I exploded on them.After years of that repeating cycle of trying hard, then failure, then depression, then getting up and resolving to try harder, - one day I think I said something like...what good is it for You to show me how awful I am if I CAN"T ever be good for any length of time?? Will I never be good until I'm dead?? What's the point?? And I just gave up, in one second of time, I just gave up and saw that it was never going to happen. So I said, this is who I am. I am not good, I am not virtuous, I'm bad, and I can't ever be good. So if I am to be with even the smallest speck of virtue rather than just intermittent self-delusion, you will have to see to it because I'm not playing this make believe game any more.
Soon after - VERY soon - I began to see victories. I gained great control over my nasty tongue, I would be treated very mean and nasty by someone and my feelings wouldn't get hurt but instead I would LOVE and feel compassion for them in their pain and hatred. It was amazing and it seemed I wasn't me any more. I honestly felt like this couldn't be me. It was like....where is Jennie and what have you done with her??
Later I understood that I had been trying to be good by my own effort instead of believing Him to make me what He said He would.
So first, He had to show me there was no good thing in me because I was deceived and thought I was pretty good.
But THEN, He had to get me to see that just knowing this and trying to change it wouldn't work, because all my attempts at righteousness were filthy, polluted and useless. I had to wait for and rely on Him to do something about it.I know we all have our own experience and growth and it's very personal between us and Him, and we all have different ditches we fall into, but in answer to your question of HOW do we do it if it's already all been done?? - the answer is we don't do it, we can't, no matter how hard we try - He does. It's by trusting Him
Yes you are right.
I think confusion arises as a result of the bible we read.
Romans 8:1 (NKJV)
Chapter 8
Free from Indwelling Sin
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Romans 8:1 (ESV)
Life in the Spirit
1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (As per most modern bibles)
Interesting that the NKV has the following footnote
(NKJV) 8:1 x NU-Text omits the rest of this verse.
Look at the difference and to me it's a biggie in the life of a believer. We have the bible but dependent on your mindset as a person, probably based on life's experiences and based on doctrinal teaching then to me one can emprison you and one can set you free.
Read ad the NKJV version then one can walk in a way that says "If my flesh overcomes my spirit then I am condemned"
This can then result in a yo-yo reaction of "Am I really saved, and condemned one minute and saved the next, one minute I'm in and the next I am out" to me if that's the case then we are so unstable then that becomes our focus. That then detracts
from who we are in Jesus and basically makes a relationship one sided.
Its all about what I have to do rather than walking with God through and with the Holy Spirit. A two way relationship.
If it's not two way then it's not a relationship.
So to me verses 1-4 are saying, we are no longer condemned under the law but now given the Holy Spirit we are empowered to walk like Jesus to live for him. The law could just pronounced sin as such but couldn't do anything about it.
Jesus took our sins upon him, he who knew no sin became sin for us, in order that we can be set fee from sin.
The righteous requirements of the law was fulfilled in Jesus so that we as believers have this righteousness not by following the law but by being in Christ and as a result walking according to the spirit.
The righteousness of the law to me is summed in love.
Summed up in the two new commandments Jesus gave.
We want to love God with all our heart and soul, love our neighbors and I take it further. Love our enemies.
A genuine believer will want to be like this and do this.
and let's be honest we will fall foul, we will follow the flesh. Some more than others.
A genuine believer may really struggle with stuff that seems to then impossible to overcome.
BUT if they have the Holy Spirit in them they will be like Jacob, I ain't letting go of you. Whatever it takes for you to bless me and cause me to be like you, whatever is stopping me please help me.
To me that is a person walking in the spirit.
If a person has no regard to walk in the Spirit, even after being taught what it means to be a follower of Jesus then we leave it up to God.
However if a beloved child of God struggles and suffers we as beloved brothers/sisters are commanded to love them.
I think confusion arises as a result of the bible we read.
Romans 8:1 (NKJV)
Chapter 8
Free from Indwelling Sin
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Romans 8:1 (ESV)
Life in the Spirit
1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (As per most modern bibles)
Interesting that the NKV has the following footnote
(NKJV) 8:1 x NU-Text omits the rest of this verse.
Look at the difference and to me it's a biggie in the life of a believer. We have the bible but dependent on your mindset as a person, probably based on life's experiences and based on doctrinal teaching then to me one can emprison you and one can set you free.
Read ad the NKJV version then one can walk in a way that says "If my flesh overcomes my spirit then I am condemned"
This can then result in a yo-yo reaction of "Am I really saved, and condemned one minute and saved the next, one minute I'm in and the next I am out" to me if that's the case then we are so unstable then that becomes our focus. That then detracts
from who we are in Jesus and basically makes a relationship one sided.
Its all about what I have to do rather than walking with God through and with the Holy Spirit. A two way relationship.
If it's not two way then it's not a relationship.
So to me verses 1-4 are saying, we are no longer condemned under the law but now given the Holy Spirit we are empowered to walk like Jesus to live for him. The law could just pronounced sin as such but couldn't do anything about it.
Jesus took our sins upon him, he who knew no sin became sin for us, in order that we can be set fee from sin.
The righteous requirements of the law was fulfilled in Jesus so that we as believers have this righteousness not by following the law but by being in Christ and as a result walking according to the spirit.
The righteousness of the law to me is summed in love.
Summed up in the two new commandments Jesus gave.
We want to love God with all our heart and soul, love our neighbors and I take it further. Love our enemies.
A genuine believer will want to be like this and do this.
and let's be honest we will fall foul, we will follow the flesh. Some more than others.
A genuine believer may really struggle with stuff that seems to then impossible to overcome.
BUT if they have the Holy Spirit in them they will be like Jacob, I ain't letting go of you. Whatever it takes for you to bless me and cause me to be like you, whatever is stopping me please help me.
To me that is a person walking in the spirit.
If a person has no regard to walk in the Spirit, even after being taught what it means to be a follower of Jesus then we leave it up to God.
However if a beloved child of God struggles and suffers we as beloved brothers/sisters are commanded to love them.
Hi Grace...Sometimes we have to use a simple but very effective example...If i was speaking to my 11 yrs old grand daughter who is showing such an interest in the Lord \o/ Praise God, i would give her an easy example to her if she was to say to me "Nanny you are changing "...I would give her an example and explain to her how Christ is changing me and explain that it is like i have taken off my old coat because i have a brand new one that i am growing in to, because young children do not understand the deep knowledge of being born again, that we are born again through Christ, so a little example is more likely to touch her rather then confusing her, the coat still points to Christ, and the child still gets fed...I believe Jesus understands this coming from this Grandma ...xox...
...If i was speaking to my 11 yrs old grand daughter who is showing such an interest in the Lord \o/ Praise God, i would give her an easy example to her if she was to say to me "Nanny you are changing "...I would give her an example and explain to her how Christ is changing me and explain that it is like i have taken off my old coat because i have a brand new one that i am growing in to, because young children do not understand the deep knowledge of being born again, that we are born again through Christ, so a little example is more likely to touch her rather then confusing her, the coat still points to Christ, and the child still gets fed...I believe Jesus understands this coming from this Grandma ...xox...
Sometimes though, our example never will help someone. It will take it being someone else putting it into different words and explaining a little differently, that makes them say aha! The way one man couches it will just never make sense to you but another man describing the same thing but in a different way sets the lightbulb off in your mind. And that's okay because your example will help some and not help some. They may even cringe at the way you say it or take great objection to a certain word.
Hi Ariel...It was just the coldness i felt from you, a bit like this one, it`s like you are just saying words without any feeling towards the person you are speaking to...Maybe that`s my problem, we can get so used to standing up for the Word of God that we forget our gentleness, we get lost in the battle that we forget who we are talking to and just spill out what we know...That`s how i feel when i read your post, that is not to say i am right, it`s just what i feel...it happens a lot in here, post are very rarely addressed to the person unless it is open with a gentle manner...xox...
U
[SUP]31 [/SUP]But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
Isaiah 40:31
Isaiah 40:31
I saw that this is the second time you asked this question Stephen and I want to try to share my own experience in case it may help.
It has been in two parts for me.
At first, I didn't see that I was nothing like our Lord. I thought I was quite humble, loving, gentle, forgiving, etc. I thought I displayed these fruits of the Spirit. Then a man I'd been talking with for a few years about God died. He never came to know God as far as I know, (but I have hope that on his deathbed God saved him.)
I used to always pray for him that God would open his eyes and humble him because he used to be the one to bring up the subject of God with me, but seemed to only ever want to arrogantly fight and argue about how the bible was written by just men, virgins can't give birth, etc. You know the arguing, I'm sure you've heard it from unbelievers.
After he died, I suddenly saw that I had not showed Him Gods' love but had instead had arrogant arguments, reviled back, acted as badly as him. Apologetics is not love. Apologetics can be discussed in love or they can be discussed in anger and arrogance.
When I realized I had not shown him love, I was destroyed. I was completely undone. It becomes really real after someone dies and you realize you showed absolutely NOTHING that would have wanted them to know God. You just acted like THEY acted. You didn't lay down your life for them at all.
So after He was able to show me that I wasn't showing love but just trying to win an argument, He began to show me my lack in all other virtue too. There was no humility, just arrogant argument. No love, just wanting to win. No gentleness, just reviling back when reviled instead of forgiving, holding awful grudges while at the same time thinking myself to be forgiving. And I saw how selfish I was. Whenever I would complain to Him about someone elses selfishness, He showed me all of the ways I was selfish and that I was hating their selfishness while embracing my own. (He drove it home with a piece of apple crisp believe it or not. There were only two pieces left so I hid one clear in the back of the fridge hoping no one would find it and I could have it later). He hounded me it felt like. Just every day, showing me that I was NOT how I had been perceiving myself to be and was even WORSE than those I complained about.
That's a lot of light to flood someone with at once. It's hard to see so clearly how you really are when you've convinced yourself you're nothing like that but are instead the sweetest little angel. It was painful the way walking out of a dark movie theatre and into daylight is painful. I didn't like it, but I SAW it.
Here's the second part. I began to try very hard to be good. This went on for years. I would try to be nice, kind, gentle, forgiving., because I didn't WANT to be bad and ugly. I wanted to be like my Lord!Then the nastiest and most rude person you could imagine would be thrown into my breathing space and I'd lose it on them really bad. So there went all of my attempts to be good and holy, right down the drain because of one nasty pissant who pushed my buttons. So then I would fall into a brooding depression and after a few days or weeks I'd pick myself up and resolve to try harder to be good. I'd try for some length of time and be sailing along pretty good (in my estimation) and then dangit, ANOTHER nasty pissant would start pushing my buttons until I exploded on them.
After years of that repeating cycle of trying hard, then failure, then depression, then getting up and resolving to try harder, - one day I think I said something like...what good is it for You to show me how awful I am if I CAN"T ever be good for any length of time?? Will I never be good until I'm dead?? What's the point?? And I just gave up, in one second of time, I just gave up and saw that it was never going to happen. So I said, this is who I am. I am not good, I am not virtuous, I'm bad, and I can't ever be good. So if I am to be with even the smallest speck of virtue rather than just intermittent self-delusion, you will have to see to it because I'm not playing this make believe game any more.
Soon after - VERY soon - I began to see victories. I gained great control over my nasty tongue, I would be treated very mean and nasty by someone and my feelings wouldn't get hurt but instead I would LOVE and feel compassion for them in their pain and hatred. It was amazing and it seemed I wasn't me any more. I honestly felt like this couldn't be me. It was like....where is Jennie and what have you done with her??
Later I understood that I had been trying to be good by my own effort instead of believing Him to make me what He said He would.
So first, He had to show me there was no good thing in me because I was deceived and thought I was pretty good.But THEN, He had to get me to see that just knowing this and trying to change it wouldn't work, because all my attempts at righteousness were filthy, polluted and useless. I had to wait for and rely on Him to do something about it.
I know we all have our own experience and growth and it's very personal between us and Him, and we all have different ditches we fall into, but in answer to your question of HOW do we do it if it's already all been done?? - the answer is we don't do it, we can't, no matter how hard we try - He does. It's by trusting Him
It has been in two parts for me.
At first, I didn't see that I was nothing like our Lord. I thought I was quite humble, loving, gentle, forgiving, etc. I thought I displayed these fruits of the Spirit. Then a man I'd been talking with for a few years about God died. He never came to know God as far as I know, (but I have hope that on his deathbed God saved him.)
I used to always pray for him that God would open his eyes and humble him because he used to be the one to bring up the subject of God with me, but seemed to only ever want to arrogantly fight and argue about how the bible was written by just men, virgins can't give birth, etc. You know the arguing, I'm sure you've heard it from unbelievers.
After he died, I suddenly saw that I had not showed Him Gods' love but had instead had arrogant arguments, reviled back, acted as badly as him. Apologetics is not love. Apologetics can be discussed in love or they can be discussed in anger and arrogance.
When I realized I had not shown him love, I was destroyed. I was completely undone. It becomes really real after someone dies and you realize you showed absolutely NOTHING that would have wanted them to know God. You just acted like THEY acted. You didn't lay down your life for them at all.
So after He was able to show me that I wasn't showing love but just trying to win an argument, He began to show me my lack in all other virtue too. There was no humility, just arrogant argument. No love, just wanting to win. No gentleness, just reviling back when reviled instead of forgiving, holding awful grudges while at the same time thinking myself to be forgiving. And I saw how selfish I was. Whenever I would complain to Him about someone elses selfishness, He showed me all of the ways I was selfish and that I was hating their selfishness while embracing my own. (He drove it home with a piece of apple crisp believe it or not. There were only two pieces left so I hid one clear in the back of the fridge hoping no one would find it and I could have it later). He hounded me it felt like. Just every day, showing me that I was NOT how I had been perceiving myself to be and was even WORSE than those I complained about.
That's a lot of light to flood someone with at once. It's hard to see so clearly how you really are when you've convinced yourself you're nothing like that but are instead the sweetest little angel. It was painful the way walking out of a dark movie theatre and into daylight is painful. I didn't like it, but I SAW it.
Here's the second part. I began to try very hard to be good. This went on for years. I would try to be nice, kind, gentle, forgiving., because I didn't WANT to be bad and ugly. I wanted to be like my Lord!Then the nastiest and most rude person you could imagine would be thrown into my breathing space and I'd lose it on them really bad. So there went all of my attempts to be good and holy, right down the drain because of one nasty pissant who pushed my buttons. So then I would fall into a brooding depression and after a few days or weeks I'd pick myself up and resolve to try harder to be good. I'd try for some length of time and be sailing along pretty good (in my estimation
) and then dangit, ANOTHER nasty pissant would start pushing my buttons until I exploded on them.After years of that repeating cycle of trying hard, then failure, then depression, then getting up and resolving to try harder, - one day I think I said something like...what good is it for You to show me how awful I am if I CAN"T ever be good for any length of time?? Will I never be good until I'm dead?? What's the point?? And I just gave up, in one second of time, I just gave up and saw that it was never going to happen. So I said, this is who I am. I am not good, I am not virtuous, I'm bad, and I can't ever be good. So if I am to be with even the smallest speck of virtue rather than just intermittent self-delusion, you will have to see to it because I'm not playing this make believe game any more.
Soon after - VERY soon - I began to see victories. I gained great control over my nasty tongue, I would be treated very mean and nasty by someone and my feelings wouldn't get hurt but instead I would LOVE and feel compassion for them in their pain and hatred. It was amazing and it seemed I wasn't me any more. I honestly felt like this couldn't be me. It was like....where is Jennie and what have you done with her??
Later I understood that I had been trying to be good by my own effort instead of believing Him to make me what He said He would.
So first, He had to show me there was no good thing in me because I was deceived and thought I was pretty good.
But THEN, He had to get me to see that just knowing this and trying to change it wouldn't work, because all my attempts at righteousness were filthy, polluted and useless. I had to wait for and rely on Him to do something about it.I know we all have our own experience and growth and it's very personal between us and Him, and we all have different ditches we fall into, but in answer to your question of HOW do we do it if it's already all been done?? - the answer is we don't do it, we can't, no matter how hard we try - He does. It's by trusting Him
Yes, Rosemary, if.....
I hate to say this, in a way, & in another way, I don't, but I don't think I have any of those Spiritual Fruits. I would simply love it it if I could have just one.
I know not having them is all my fault but do not know exactly what I'm doing wrong, or which way to turn to make it Right.
I hate to say this, in a way, & in another way, I don't, but I don't think I have any of those Spiritual Fruits. I would simply love it it if I could have just one.
I know not having them is all my fault but do not know exactly what I'm doing wrong, or which way to turn to make it Right.
Original Post By: dcontroversal; January 2, 2017
Grace and Mercy Personified
or
Not by Works
An old Vietnam Vet and I sat down one afternoon to discuss God's Mercy and Grace; and the Veteran began to tell me his story about when he was finally able to purchase his 1984 Ferrari Testarossa. He said, one day I was on an empty straight away highway, on my way to visit a friend. Just by chance I decided I would test drive the new Pirelli P9s for handling and safety, and make sure the engine was fully broken in. As I approached top speed of 180 mph, there came a ridge in the road. On the other side of that ridge was a Highway Patrolman. I slowly applied my brakes to a complete stop, while at this time the Officer was slowly approaching my side window.
Yes Officer I replied - 'Driver's license, registration and proof of insurance'; he said with a stern voice, to which I smartly complied. Man alive son do you know how fast you were going; yes Sir was my reply, about 165 mph; I clocked you at 175 was his reply. Well it just so happens that I too am a sports car fanatic and I sure would like to discuss engine performance and road handling issues with you - would you mind stopping at the local road house cafe' were we can talk further about your machine over coffee; I would be happy to Sir. The Highway Patrol Officer never issued me a citation.
Well I said to my friend; that was God’s grace in your life that day; oh no said my friend, that was God's mercy upon my life that day; had the kind Officer paid for my coffee, that would have been God's Grace. Mercy is God not giving us what we do deserve, (punishment), and Grace is God giving us what we do not deserve, (forgiveness). Praise God for His Grace and Mercy in our daily lives. (Author Unknown).
Grace and Mercy Personified
or
Not by Works
An old Vietnam Vet and I sat down one afternoon to discuss God's Mercy and Grace; and the Veteran began to tell me his story about when he was finally able to purchase his 1984 Ferrari Testarossa. He said, one day I was on an empty straight away highway, on my way to visit a friend. Just by chance I decided I would test drive the new Pirelli P9s for handling and safety, and make sure the engine was fully broken in. As I approached top speed of 180 mph, there came a ridge in the road. On the other side of that ridge was a Highway Patrolman. I slowly applied my brakes to a complete stop, while at this time the Officer was slowly approaching my side window.
Yes Officer I replied - 'Driver's license, registration and proof of insurance'; he said with a stern voice, to which I smartly complied. Man alive son do you know how fast you were going; yes Sir was my reply, about 165 mph; I clocked you at 175 was his reply. Well it just so happens that I too am a sports car fanatic and I sure would like to discuss engine performance and road handling issues with you - would you mind stopping at the local road house cafe' were we can talk further about your machine over coffee; I would be happy to Sir. The Highway Patrol Officer never issued me a citation.
Well I said to my friend; that was God’s grace in your life that day; oh no said my friend, that was God's mercy upon my life that day; had the kind Officer paid for my coffee, that would have been God's Grace. Mercy is God not giving us what we do deserve, (punishment), and Grace is God giving us what we do not deserve, (forgiveness). Praise God for His Grace and Mercy in our daily lives. (Author Unknown).
I saw that this is the second time you asked this question Stephen and I want to try to share my own experience in case it may help.
It has been in two parts for me.
At first, I didn't see that I was nothing like our Lord. I thought I was quite humble, loving, gentle, forgiving, etc. I thought I displayed these fruits of the Spirit. Then a man I'd been talking with for a few years about God died. He never came to know God as far as I know, (but I have hope that on his deathbed God saved him.)
I used to always pray for him that God would open his eyes and humble him because he used to be the one to bring up the subject of God with me, but seemed to only ever want to arrogantly fight and argue about how the bible was written by just men, virgins can't give birth, etc. You know the arguing, I'm sure you've heard it from unbelievers.
After he died, I suddenly saw that I had not showed Him Gods' love but had instead had arrogant arguments, reviled back, acted as badly as him. Apologetics is not love. Apologetics can be discussed in love or they can be discussed in anger and arrogance.
When I realized I had not shown him love, I was destroyed. I was completely undone. It becomes really real after someone dies and you realize you showed absolutely NOTHING that would have wanted them to know God. You just acted like THEY acted. You didn't lay down your life for them at all.
So after He was able to show me that I wasn't showing love but just trying to win an argument, He began to show me my lack in all other virtue too. There was no humility, just arrogant argument. No love, just wanting to win. No gentleness, just reviling back when reviled instead of forgiving, holding awful grudges while at the same time thinking myself to be forgiving. And I saw how selfish I was. Whenever I would complain to Him about someone elses selfishness, He showed me all of the ways I was selfish and that I was hating their selfishness while embracing my own. (He drove it home with a piece of apple crisp believe it or not. There were only two pieces left so I hid one clear in the back of the fridge hoping no one would find it and I could have it later). He hounded me it felt like. Just every day, showing me that I was NOT how I had been perceiving myself to be and was even WORSE than those I complained about.
That's a lot of light to flood someone with at once. It's hard to see so clearly how you really are when you've convinced yourself you're nothing like that but are instead the sweetest little angel. It was painful the way walking out of a dark movie theatre and into daylight is painful. I didn't like it, but I SAW it.
Here's the second part. I began to try very hard to be good. This went on for years. I would try to be nice, kind, gentle, forgiving., because I didn't WANT to be bad and ugly. I wanted to be like my Lord!Then the nastiest and most rude person you could imagine would be thrown into my breathing space and I'd lose it on them really bad. So there went all of my attempts to be good and holy, right down the drain because of one nasty pissant who pushed my buttons. So then I would fall into a brooding depression and after a few days or weeks I'd pick myself up and resolve to try harder to be good. I'd try for some length of time and be sailing along pretty good (in my estimation) and then dangit, ANOTHER nasty pissant would start pushing my buttons until I exploded on them.
After years of that repeating cycle of trying hard, then failure, then depression, then getting up and resolving to try harder, - one day I think I said something like...what good is it for You to show me how awful I am if I CAN"T ever be good for any length of time?? Will I never be good until I'm dead?? What's the point?? And I just gave up, in one second of time, I just gave up and saw that it was never going to happen. So I said, this is who I am. I am not good, I am not virtuous, I'm bad, and I can't ever be good. So if I am to be with even the smallest speck of virtue rather than just intermittent self-delusion, you will have to see to it because I'm not playing this make believe game any more.
Soon after - VERY soon - I began to see victories. I gained great control over my nasty tongue, I would be treated very mean and nasty by someone and my feelings wouldn't get hurt but instead I would LOVE and feel compassion for them in their pain and hatred. It was amazing and it seemed I wasn't me any more. I honestly felt like this couldn't be me. It was like....where is Jennie and what have you done with her??
Later I understood that I had been trying to be good by my own effort instead of believing Him to make me what He said He would.
So first, He had to show me there was no good thing in me because I was deceived and thought I was pretty good.But THEN, He had to get me to see that just knowing this and trying to change it wouldn't work, because all my attempts at righteousness were filthy, polluted and useless. I had to wait for and rely on Him to do something about it.
I know we all have our own experience and growth and it's very personal between us and Him, and we all have different ditches we fall into, but in answer to your question of HOW do we do it if it's already all been done?? - the answer is we don't do it, we can't, no matter how hard we try - He does. It's by trusting Him
It has been in two parts for me.
At first, I didn't see that I was nothing like our Lord. I thought I was quite humble, loving, gentle, forgiving, etc. I thought I displayed these fruits of the Spirit. Then a man I'd been talking with for a few years about God died. He never came to know God as far as I know, (but I have hope that on his deathbed God saved him.)
I used to always pray for him that God would open his eyes and humble him because he used to be the one to bring up the subject of God with me, but seemed to only ever want to arrogantly fight and argue about how the bible was written by just men, virgins can't give birth, etc. You know the arguing, I'm sure you've heard it from unbelievers.
After he died, I suddenly saw that I had not showed Him Gods' love but had instead had arrogant arguments, reviled back, acted as badly as him. Apologetics is not love. Apologetics can be discussed in love or they can be discussed in anger and arrogance.
When I realized I had not shown him love, I was destroyed. I was completely undone. It becomes really real after someone dies and you realize you showed absolutely NOTHING that would have wanted them to know God. You just acted like THEY acted. You didn't lay down your life for them at all.
So after He was able to show me that I wasn't showing love but just trying to win an argument, He began to show me my lack in all other virtue too. There was no humility, just arrogant argument. No love, just wanting to win. No gentleness, just reviling back when reviled instead of forgiving, holding awful grudges while at the same time thinking myself to be forgiving. And I saw how selfish I was. Whenever I would complain to Him about someone elses selfishness, He showed me all of the ways I was selfish and that I was hating their selfishness while embracing my own. (He drove it home with a piece of apple crisp believe it or not. There were only two pieces left so I hid one clear in the back of the fridge hoping no one would find it and I could have it later). He hounded me it felt like. Just every day, showing me that I was NOT how I had been perceiving myself to be and was even WORSE than those I complained about.
That's a lot of light to flood someone with at once. It's hard to see so clearly how you really are when you've convinced yourself you're nothing like that but are instead the sweetest little angel. It was painful the way walking out of a dark movie theatre and into daylight is painful. I didn't like it, but I SAW it.
Here's the second part. I began to try very hard to be good. This went on for years. I would try to be nice, kind, gentle, forgiving., because I didn't WANT to be bad and ugly. I wanted to be like my Lord!Then the nastiest and most rude person you could imagine would be thrown into my breathing space and I'd lose it on them really bad. So there went all of my attempts to be good and holy, right down the drain because of one nasty pissant who pushed my buttons. So then I would fall into a brooding depression and after a few days or weeks I'd pick myself up and resolve to try harder to be good. I'd try for some length of time and be sailing along pretty good (in my estimation
) and then dangit, ANOTHER nasty pissant would start pushing my buttons until I exploded on them.After years of that repeating cycle of trying hard, then failure, then depression, then getting up and resolving to try harder, - one day I think I said something like...what good is it for You to show me how awful I am if I CAN"T ever be good for any length of time?? Will I never be good until I'm dead?? What's the point?? And I just gave up, in one second of time, I just gave up and saw that it was never going to happen. So I said, this is who I am. I am not good, I am not virtuous, I'm bad, and I can't ever be good. So if I am to be with even the smallest speck of virtue rather than just intermittent self-delusion, you will have to see to it because I'm not playing this make believe game any more.
Soon after - VERY soon - I began to see victories. I gained great control over my nasty tongue, I would be treated very mean and nasty by someone and my feelings wouldn't get hurt but instead I would LOVE and feel compassion for them in their pain and hatred. It was amazing and it seemed I wasn't me any more. I honestly felt like this couldn't be me. It was like....where is Jennie and what have you done with her??
Later I understood that I had been trying to be good by my own effort instead of believing Him to make me what He said He would.
So first, He had to show me there was no good thing in me because I was deceived and thought I was pretty good.
But THEN, He had to get me to see that just knowing this and trying to change it wouldn't work, because all my attempts at righteousness were filthy, polluted and useless. I had to wait for and rely on Him to do something about it.I know we all have our own experience and growth and it's very personal between us and Him, and we all have different ditches we fall into, but in answer to your question of HOW do we do it if it's already all been done?? - the answer is we don't do it, we can't, no matter how hard we try - He does. It's by trusting Him
R
Hey, this thread does seem to be going better now! Not much agreement, but more goodwill!
I certainly don't want a church where everyone is a teacher spouting off their own opinions as truth. I see that way too often in churches. People get their own opinion and then find a few verses to defend it and then proclaim it as fact. Someone else gets their own opposite opinion and finds a few contradictory verses to defend themselves, and we all go in circles watching them debate.
Here are some areas where I personally struggle:
1) I don't see Scripture as a collection of contradictory verses where you choose the side that seems to have the most ammo. It seems to me that all of Scripture should blend together into one cohesive truth. Any doctrine that cannot easily accommodate the whole Bible without doing gymnastics is an incomplete doctrine.
2) Some of us young people are truly confused and open-minded about doctrinal issues. The old timers tend to get so well-worn in the debates that they forget what it's like to be unconvinced.
3) On many doctrinal points, I have a problem taking extremist all-or-nothing positions. Of course I believe Jesus is the only begotten Son and only way to Father. I believe there is no other name by which men can be saved. I believe we must take up our cross and follow Him in all-or-nothing pursuit. But in matters of interpreting the details, where there are various verses to balance each other, extremist views are rarely able to teach all of Scripture.
I am greatly interested in learning more about my faith. I just don't think we need arguments to learn from each other!
I certainly don't want a church where everyone is a teacher spouting off their own opinions as truth. I see that way too often in churches. People get their own opinion and then find a few verses to defend it and then proclaim it as fact. Someone else gets their own opposite opinion and finds a few contradictory verses to defend themselves, and we all go in circles watching them debate.
Here are some areas where I personally struggle:
1) I don't see Scripture as a collection of contradictory verses where you choose the side that seems to have the most ammo. It seems to me that all of Scripture should blend together into one cohesive truth. Any doctrine that cannot easily accommodate the whole Bible without doing gymnastics is an incomplete doctrine.
2) Some of us young people are truly confused and open-minded about doctrinal issues. The old timers tend to get so well-worn in the debates that they forget what it's like to be unconvinced.
3) On many doctrinal points, I have a problem taking extremist all-or-nothing positions. Of course I believe Jesus is the only begotten Son and only way to Father. I believe there is no other name by which men can be saved. I believe we must take up our cross and follow Him in all-or-nothing pursuit. But in matters of interpreting the details, where there are various verses to balance each other, extremist views are rarely able to teach all of Scripture.
I am greatly interested in learning more about my faith. I just don't think we need arguments to learn from each other!
U
I agree .... you have clearly outlined it so many times
I have never read anything you have posted, that could be words from a spirit of condemnation, when you write you are sharing what you have learned and how it has set you free and desiring to share it with others.
It is like it has been said, it is their choice to strive for what is already present, but I myself am glad to have come to a deeper truer understanding of who were are in Christ.
I have never read anything you have posted, that could be words from a spirit of condemnation, when you write you are sharing what you have learned and how it has set you free and desiring to share it with others.
It is like it has been said, it is their choice to strive for what is already present, but I myself am glad to have come to a deeper truer understanding of who were are in Christ.
How us Christians are transformed by the grace of Christ and grow in the grace and knowledge of Him has already answered it in 3 posts below in the blue links.
Not By Works
Not By Works
Not By Works
This question has been answered many times in the past. Sometimes people just don't accept it and that is fine. They are entitled to their own opinions. The Holy Spirit will reveal Christ to all of us...We can trust Him to be faithful......
Not By Works
Not By Works
Not By Works
This question has been answered many times in the past. Sometimes people just don't accept it and that is fine. They are entitled to their own opinions. The Holy Spirit will reveal Christ to all of us...We can trust Him to be faithful...
...
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Personally I love repentance. It is a beautiful gift from our loving Father who loves us deeply!
Repentance comes with the hearing of Christ and what He has already done.
Romans 10:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
We should be living in a constant mode of repenting ( changing our minds about what we believe ) whenever we hear a new truth about the beauty of our Lord.
The word "repentance" - metanoia as been shown by others simply in the original greek means " to change the mind " or "change the way we are thinking".
Jesus said it best in Mark 1:15 "Repent and believe in the gospel." ( which means the nearly too good to be true news )
To us it means to change our mind to stop relying on ourselves and our thinking and turn to God. Stop living our own life with our own thinking and come to Christ and let His life live through and in you. Receive all that Jesus did for us in His finished work.
We should be repenting ( changing how we think towards something ) constantly as we see the Lord's true nature, love and grace revealed to and in us.
There will always be "fruits" of having a changed mind ( having already repented ) to God but the "fruit" is not the repentance within itself.
True repentance is the "root" before the "fruit" comes.
The fruit will manifest itself in the form of having a changed heart because we are a new creation in Christ.
And yes - this includes how we think towards all forms of sinning such as living the homosexual lifestyle to the slandering of others in the body of Christ. These are in the same lists together as works of the flesh.
This will also show in behavior as the life of Christ transforms our outward life to reflect what has already happened in our inner man - that new creation in Christ.
Sometimes our religious traditions can "hi-jack" the meanings of words and can present false assumptions.
Here is a video for those that like to watch them that talks about how the English word "repent" got hi-jacked by religion.
[video=vimeo;112172173]https://vimeo.com/112172173[/video]
Repentance comes with the hearing of Christ and what He has already done.
Romans 10:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
We should be living in a constant mode of repenting ( changing our minds about what we believe ) whenever we hear a new truth about the beauty of our Lord.
The word "repentance" - metanoia as been shown by others simply in the original greek means " to change the mind " or "change the way we are thinking".
Jesus said it best in Mark 1:15 "Repent and believe in the gospel." ( which means the nearly too good to be true news )
To us it means to change our mind to stop relying on ourselves and our thinking and turn to God. Stop living our own life with our own thinking and come to Christ and let His life live through and in you. Receive all that Jesus did for us in His finished work.
We should be repenting ( changing how we think towards something ) constantly as we see the Lord's true nature, love and grace revealed to and in us.
There will always be "fruits" of having a changed mind ( having already repented ) to God but the "fruit" is not the repentance within itself.
True repentance is the "root" before the "fruit" comes.
The fruit will manifest itself in the form of having a changed heart because we are a new creation in Christ.
And yes - this includes how we think towards all forms of sinning such as living the homosexual lifestyle to the slandering of others in the body of Christ. These are in the same lists together as works of the flesh.
This will also show in behavior as the life of Christ transforms our outward life to reflect what has already happened in our inner man - that new creation in Christ.
Sometimes our religious traditions can "hi-jack" the meanings of words and can present false assumptions.
Here is a video for those that like to watch them that talks about how the English word "repent" got hi-jacked by religion.
[video=vimeo;112172173]https://vimeo.com/112172173[/video]
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Thank you so much, Rosemary.
I am a child of The Most High God. I have been born again. Jesus is Everything to me. So many times, He has come down & lifted me out of the pits I have dug for myself.
Yet, even though I am in The Word daily, & crying out to Him constantly, I feel (& act, too, I believe) as if I'm so very far from Him. Something is seriously wrong with my heart. I just wish I knew what it was.
I am a child of The Most High God. I have been born again. Jesus is Everything to me. So many times, He has come down & lifted me out of the pits I have dug for myself.
Yet, even though I am in The Word daily, & crying out to Him constantly, I feel (& act, too, I believe) as if I'm so very far from Him. Something is seriously wrong with my heart. I just wish I knew what it was.
R
Something that helped me in this pursuit was studying the origins of each piece of fruit. Some qualities, like patience, are developed through tested faith (James 1:3). Some qualities, like kindness, must be governed by knowledge and sensibility in order to flourish (2 Peter 1:5). If faith is all we have at the moment, we stretch and prove that faith until it grows into something solid. Of course the Holy Spirit does this change inside of us, but we have to realize there's a process.
This all sounds very wise!
Your number 3 reminds me of something I see so often in these threads. One verse argued to the exclusion of others. And then the other side does the same. They choose a verse and exclude the other verses.
But every verse I read always seems to have other verses that are in tension to it. They don't disagree with it as the arguments seem to claim, but they are in tension to it.
Your number 3 reminds me of something I see so often in these threads. One verse argued to the exclusion of others. And then the other side does the same. They choose a verse and exclude the other verses.
But every verse I read always seems to have other verses that are in tension to it. They don't disagree with it as the arguments seem to claim, but they are in tension to it.