Not By Works

[JIMBO43]

Never said everybody should..... but those empowered to do so, including the apostles, did so by the Spirit of God, otherwise they all did it in their own flesh.

Just needed clarity thanks..

I was to making an honest assessment to but on the scripture,, The damage you can do when you rebuke someone can be worse than murder if you do it wrongly.. people have been known to commit suciside...

 

[stonesoffire]

There are actually 3 types of Righteousness found in the Bible.

1-Imputed/positional rightoeusness
2-Practical /behavioral rightouesness
3-Self righteousness

The bible calls the second one "upright". Morally good can be of either tree from the garden.

 

[JIMBO43]

And may i add if you rebuke someone who has been made to a sin its even worse for the individual because it wasnt there falut in some cases... only the rebuker is not allways a lawyer if ya get my drift..

 

[willybob]

The above is the subtle (not so subtle to some) dead fruit of a false gospel of works.

No, the people you allude to understand way more than you give them credit for, probably more so than yourself. These know salvation is 100% God and 100% grace, and, that works are only evidence of conversion, not an assist, not maintenance.


Grace is always received before it is deserved or earned as you imply. Since you feel you have earned grace it shows, unfortunately, you have absolutely no understanding of what grace is at all.

can you please define grace in biblical terms so we can come to a logical discussion? thanks

Paul said one could receive grace in vain...Also we need to define the word "receive" as it pertains to biblical salvation. i think your definition of these simple words are confused and not understood via scripture, but rather by way of flesh king pundits of renown....be blessed in your search

 

[BillG]

Just needed clarity thanks..

I was to making an honest assessment to but on the scripture,, The damage you can do when you rebuke someone can be worse than murder if you do it wrongly.. people have been known to commit suciside...

I see what you are saying Jimbo. The tongue can bring life or death.
It can build up or tear down.

I pray for all of us that we pray for wisdom before we speak.

Well said.

 

[Desertsrose]

Here we go around the mulberry bush again but here is the post that shows just a few of them if anyone is interested. People are free to believe hat they want.....

Your example doesn't say what you said. You said John wrote to the gnostics.

I said he wrote to the believers and addressed the false teaching of gnosticism. John called the recipients, "my little children".

Your examples shows that John addressed gnosticism, not that he wrote to gnostics. It's a huge difference. John addressed the false teaching so that his little children would not fall into their false teaching.

 

[Desertsrose]

Spurgeon commenting on If we confess our sins writes…

That is the point; and he, who says that he has no sins, will not confess them. He, who believes himself to be perfect, cannot enjoy the blessing described in this 9th verse.

To deny that we have any sin, is to walk in darkness, and to show we are without the light which would reveal our sin to us, kind if we are walking in darkness we cannot be in fellowship with God.

But to see sin in ourselves from day to day, humbly to confess it, and mourn over it, is to walk in the light; and walking in the light, we shall have fellowship with God who is light.

“If we confess our sins,” — The text means just this - Treat God truthfully, and he will treat you truthfully. Make no pretensions before God, but lay bare your soul, let him see it as it is, and then he will be faithful and just to forgive you your sins and to cleanse you from all unrighteousness.​

 

[Meggido]

Spurgeon explains why quick confession should be every saint's practice…

It is not the nature of sin to remain in a fixed state. Like decaying fruit, it grows more rotten. The man who is bad today will be worse tomorrow.​

If you do not confess SIN, then you will never bear fruit...

It seems some are syaing the Holy Spirit only convicts of believer when we are not walking in behavioral righteousness....and not of their sin....this is at odds with the intent and proper interpretation of John 16.8-10....

Which Jesus says the Holy Spirit will convict the world of their sin and of their lack of righteousness of God...this is directive to the disciples alone....this means that the Holy Spirit still convinces the believer of their SIN and of their behavioral righteousness today...and still convinces the unbeliever of their sin and need for the gift of righteousness from God...

It simply blows my mind, a believer would suggest they are never convinced of SIN anymore....

Now watch this folks....the very same few that tell you the Holy Spirit does not convince a believer of their sin today....also fight me and others when we say they're e not sinners saved by grace after salvation....and also accuse us of claiming e are sinless-perfection by not saying we are sinner saved by grace anymore....

Notice the contradiction?

And as Stephen posted there are certain mainstream grace teachers teaching this....

 

[Magenta]

Your example doesn't say what you said. You said John wrote to the gnostics.

I said he wrote to the believers and addressed the false teaching of gnosticism. John called the recipients, "my little children".

Your examples shows that John addressed gnosticism, not that he wrote to gnostics. It's a huge difference. John addressed the false teaching so that his little children would not fall into their false teaching.

This used to get argued a lot in days gone by.

Remembering HeRoseFromTheDead I hope he is well

 

[stonesoffire]

Here we go around the mulberry bush again but here is the post that shows just a few of them if anyone is interested. People are free to believe hat they want.....

Hi Grace777...this link doesn't work..

~https://www.biblicaltraining.org/lib...pistles-john-

 

[Meggido]

Your example doesn't say what you said. You said John wrote to the gnostics.

I said he wrote to the believers and addressed the false teaching of gnosticism. John called the recipients, "my little children".

Your examples shows that John addressed gnosticism, not that he wrote to gnostics. It's a huge difference. John addressed the false teaching so that his little children would not fall into their false teaching.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Desertsrose again.

Will someone rep her for me...

 

[JIMBO43]

I see what you are saying Jimbo. The tongue can bring life or death.
It can build up or tear down.

I pray for all of us that we pray for wisdom before we speak.

Well said.

I definately concur we all need to pray for wisdom... and most importantly what to do with it..

 

[willybob]

If grace is always received before it is deserved....everyone would be saved and Jesus would not have needed to die....

Grace is appropriated through personal faith of what Jesus did and did alone for us...until faith comes by hearing the Word, grace is waiting....not freely given.....

We are saved by grace, through faith....


we are not saved by grace............

Yes this is true Megiddo, for God is no respecter of persons...

every person has a basic faith put in them at birth (faith of a mustard seed), even the wicked have these basic God given concepts revealed to them Rom. 1-18, but they suppress the truth in unrighteousness....

by applying sound reasoning and a sincere love for the truth is faith activated..its up to man to activate that faith to receive grace in that their faith should abound and produce the fruit of righteousness....or as God said to scarlet sinners in Isiah 1 " come let us reason together"....be blessed

 

[Magenta]

John 9.40-41
[SUP]40 [/SUP]Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?” [SUP]41 [/SUP]Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

John 10.1-10
10 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. [SUP]2 [/SUP]But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. [SUP]3 [/SUP]To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. [SUP]4 [/SUP]When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. [SUP]5 [/SUP]A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” [SUP]6 [/SUP]This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. [SUP]8 [/SUP]All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. [SUP]9 [/SUP]I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. [SUP]10 [/SUP]The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

The thief is always misrepresented as the devil in this scripture.....it is also always misrepresented that Jesus was talking to the disciples and them alone in John 10, but the discourse of John 10 is a continuation of the story starting in John 9....The conversation Jesus starts with the Pharisees [religion] in John 9.40 continues all through John 10 and his conversation is with the Pharisees and he condemns the pharisees and their religion in both chapters.....

if we understand who, what and where of the passages, we know that Jesus was talking and defining religion....

It sounds more to me like Jesus is talking about people

 

[Meggido]

Evening Megiddo my friend.

You seem to raise a point that to be honest focuses on alcohol but to be honest I think it can be taken further.
It seems to me the biggie is the booze.

I think for me the issue is not what Pastor says as such (as long what they preach is so far off the wall)
With regards to member number 1 they are responsible for the choice they make and so is the pastor.

If member number 1 develops and the pastor also develops a problem then to me the issue is not what a pastor teaches but is probably due to stuff in their life that they mask with alcohol, or shopping or gluttony and dare I add seeking affirmation through sexual immorality.

To me those who excuse whatever they do that controls them probably do so because they have issues underneath that need dealing with.

I am not disagreeing with what you have said just wanting to take it a bit deeper, as I always do.

Alas there are those who really struggle with stuff and mask it by whatever takes their mind of it and when challenged they get defensive. That is where we need love, compassion and wisdom.

Also at the end of the day if we come alongside someone with issues and meet up with them let's ensure that whilst with them not to do anything that we consider ok.

So going back to alcohol, if we know someone has a problem with this then when we come alongside and walk with them then clear the fridge.

I only picked alcohol because gb9 mentioned it in his post. You are quite correct that this could apply to almost anything....

My main point is that many seem to define true progressive sanctification as legalism.

GRACE is FREEDOM and TRUTH makes grace ACCOUNTABLE...

I have watched grace without truth destroy lives...
Thanks for going deep bro and you are blessed...

 

[JIMBO43]

I see what you are saying Jimbo. The tongue can bring life or death.
It can build up or tear down.

I pray for all of us that we pray for wisdom before we speak.

Well said.

people have tamed the tounge for 2 seconds once.. when people have been really angry...ive noticed there is a will there to tame the tounge... on others i have witnessed shear oblitoration of character...

This risks damaging that soul which is highly dangerous.. so dangerous that this i fear is the enemies favorite trick,,,

the question i ask you is how do we move on from that and at what point do we learn to let go.. I think it takes devine intervention and a forgive you moment... to truly let go we have to forgive... theese are also convictions from the spirit.. and also my dieing wish that we should all start this conversation again ,,, lol

 

[Meggido]

It sounds more to me like Jesus is talking about people

what people was he talking to and about and what were they engaged in?

If you think so, thats fine, but it is deeper than you like to suggest....

Certain teaching on grace has destroyed lives, just as bad as legalism.....

 

[Grace777x70]

Your example doesn't say what you said. You said John wrote to the gnostics.

I said he wrote to the believers and addressed the false teaching of gnosticism. John called the recipients, "my little children".

Your examples shows that John addressed gnosticism, not that he wrote to gnostics. It's a huge difference. John addressed the false teaching so that his little children would not fall into their false teaching.

John was addressing the gnostic beliefs in 1 John. Jesus Himself said that there would be tares in with the wheat and they are in our assemblies as John points out later in his epistle. Paul said to the Corinthians to "examine yourselves to see if Christ is indeed within you".

Many times words are being spoken in epistles to address these types in our churches and also the true Christians can learn from them as well. So John would have been giving information and guidance to both types of people in a local assembly.

I didn't want to give the impression that the letter was just to gnostics as that would be wrong IMO. If I worded it like that then I should have said - it was addressing gnostic beliefs and they were in the midst of the real saints that Christ is in.

Here is a good break-down of 1 John 1. Perhaps you will reject it - it's your choice but others may be helped. I'll leave it in the hands of the Lord.

If we pay attention to the ..we and our and the you in 1 John chapter 1 we will discover some great truths. These may conflict with some our church teachings and traditions.



"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we (believers - namely John ) have looked at and our hands have touched - this we proclaim concerning the Word of Life"

(I John 1:1).
In other words, John is establishing that he was an eyewitness to the fact that Jesus truly did come in the flesh. He did this to convince the Gnostics that Jesus was not an illusion.

"We ( believers - namely John himself ) proclaim to you (unbelievers - gnostics) what we have seen and heard, so that you (unbelievers - gnostics ) also may have fellowship with us ( believers ). And our (believers ) fellowship is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ" (verse 3).

This verse says two things. First, John repeats the fact that he, the rest of the apostles and other people saw Christ in the flesh. He wanted the Gnostics ( unbelievers ) to realize that there were many people who could testify to the reality of Christ.

Second, he is saying that there are some people in the audience who were not in the fellowship with Christ. ( just like we do now in all churches....there are both types of people )

"This is the message we ( believers ) have heard from Him and declare to you (unbelievers):God is light; in Him there is no darkness at all" (verse 5).

John's message in this verse is clear: God is light and in Him there is no darkness. We are either in the light (saved) or in darkness (lost). Scriptures are full of this comparison between light (saved) vs. darkness (lost).


"If weclaim to have fellowship with Him yet walk in darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth." (verse 6).

In other words, if someone says he has fellowship with Christ, but is walking in darkness (lost), he is lying and not practicing the truth. The Gnostics ( not true believers ) claimed to be in fellowship with Christ (saved), and yet were actually living a lie and therefore weren't practicing the truth.

"If we ( believers )walk in the light, as He is in the light,we ( believers ) have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us ( believers ) from all sin" (verse 7).

In other words, if we walk in the light (are saved) we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. To put it another way, once we are saved, we are permanently in the fellowship because the blood of Jesus continually cleanses us from all sin.

The blood of Jesus continually cleanses us from all sin because we are in Christ. This is always in present tense.

Therefore, we aren't forgiven because we confess our sins. We are forgiven because of what Christ did for us on the cross.

"If we ( John putting all of us in the same boat before coming to Christ ) claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" (verse 8).

John is now addressing the belief the Gnostics had regarding sin because they didn't believe it was real and therefore believed they had no sin. The "we" John is using here refers to all people before coming to Christ including all believers too which "we" had to acknowledge at some point in our lives.

He is referring specifically to the Gnostics, who believed they were without sin. Because they claimed to be without sin, then they were only deceiving themselves and the truth (Jesus) was not in them.

However, verse 9 says that "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

In other words, if the Gnostics were to confess they had sins, then God, Who is faithful and righteous, would forgive and cleanse them from their unrighteousness.

In the Greek language, the words "forgive" and "cleanse" mean past actions that have results today and will continue to have results in the future.

Also, the word "all" used in these verses means all. It doesn't mean that we are cleansed of our past sins and our past unrighteousness, it means we were cleansed of all our unrighteousness. And if God cleanses us from all unrighteousness, then we are cleansed forever!

We become a new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness. Eph. 4:24

"If we claim we ( all of us were in this boat at one time ) have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar and His word has no place in our lives" (verse 10).

Basically this verse is a repeat of verse 8. To put it simply, it means that the Gnostics can't claim to be without sin and yet be saved. John is saying that because the Gnostics claimed they had no sin, they were actually calling God a liar and therefore didn't know the truth.

The purpose of the first chapter of 1 John was to compare the truth of God to the error of gnosticism. John was addressing the Gnostics, who were deceived by their own teaching. He wanted the Gnostics to understand that what they believed conflicted with what God said. He was not, however, addressing believers.

However we can all learn from all scriptures including 1 John 1 - I especially love the truth of verse 7 - the blood of Jesus continually cleanses us from all sin because we are in Him.

 

[BillG]

If you do not confess SIN, then you will never bear fruit...

It seems some are syaing the Holy Spirit only convicts of believer when we are not walking in behavioral righteousness....and not of their sin....this is at odds with the intent and proper interpretation of John 16.8-10....

Which Jesus says the Holy Spirit will convict the world of their sin and of their lack of righteousness of God...this is directive to the disciples alone....this means that the Holy Spirit still convinces the believer of their SIN and of their behavioral righteousness today...and still convinces the unbeliever of their sin and need for the gift of righteousness from God...

It simply blows my mind, a believer would suggest they are never convinced of SIN anymore....

Now watch this folks....the very same few that tell you the Holy Spirit does not convince a believer of their sin today....also fight me and others when we say they're e not sinners saved by grace after salvation....and also accuse us of claiming e are sinless-perfection by not saying we are sinner saved by grace anymore....

Notice the contradiction?

And as Stephen posted there are certain mainstream grace teachers teaching this....

ooohhh I might have to politely disagree here.

John 16:8-9
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;

I think the sin Jesus is talking about here is that of unbelief in him.

I would say though that If a person repents of unbeleif, turns to Jesus then the Holy Spirit is given to them.
Then the Holy Spirit goes about his business, to conform us to the image of Christ and to do the works that have been predestined for those in Christ.

And when we get it wrong or should I say when I get it wrong he says to me "Hey son you didn't get that right did you Lets talk about it?

To be honest at times I have said NO, but he seems to keep chipping away at me.

Every night when I go to bed I pray "tomorrow is a new day may I be like you and help me to be so, Every day when I wake up I pray the same.

He answers those prayers even when I am a grumpy grumpy and won't listen.

He knows our hearts and if we give it to him then he will work with it.

 

[Grace777x70]

I found this quote from me and it looks like I said that John was addressing gnostics. I have never said that 1 John epistle was just for gnostics as that would be wrong.

Originally Posted by Grace777x70

There are over 25 websites that speak of 1 John addressing gnostics in his letter.

Here are some.

Intro to 1 John — Biblica