Not By Works

[PHart]

Yes I see that too, they (general sense) want to justify themselves because inherent in this is a focus on self works

which then leads to focusing on others' works (fruit inspectors) because ultimately that is their point of reference.... self and

others..... instead of the finished work of Jesus.

A bit of a vicious circle really

How is doing righteous work because you have the finished work of Jesus applied to your life a 'works save' gospel? That's absurd.

Was this woman trying to earn her own salvation when she washed the feet of Jesus with her hair and tears?

"41“Two people owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii,[SUP]c[/SUP] and the other fifty.42Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he forgave the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?”43Simon replied, “I suppose the one who had the bigger debt forgiven.”“You have judged correctly,” Jesus said.44Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. 46You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. 47Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—as her great love has shown. But whoever has been forgiven little loves little.”48Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”49The other guests began to say among themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”50Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”" (Luke 7:41-50 NASB)​

Or was her work the evidence and outcome of the forgiveness she had received through Christ? You know the answer, so why do you insist that Fran's work can only be her trying to save herself? Work is what faith in God's forgiveness looks like, folks. If your 'faith' don't look like that, you may not have the faith you think you have.

That's why so many 'Christians' are going to be surprised on the Day of Judgment--they were deceived into thinking their worksless lives were irrelevant to their confession of faith, not knowing that Christ is going to use our works as the evidence of our faith in, and love for Him. Many will be sorely surprised and disappointed when they get to the Judgment with nothing but a cold, dead, worksless, OSAS confession (alone) of Christ.

 

[TruthTalk]

[video=youtube;6n5qfUwVCcU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6n5qfUwVCcU[/video]
Jesus Paid it All

 

[oldethennew]

PS. 41:9.
Yea, Mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of My bread,
hath lifted up his heel against Me.

JOHN. 13:18.
I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled,
He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against Me.

 

[PHart]

you cannot apply that to the body of Christ. There are many scriptures declaring our position of being placed in Him. In means a fixed position.

It pays to study and compare scripture with scriptures of the same meanings.

See what you're doing? You're applying the famous circular reasoning of OSAS. You're saying OSAS is true, therefore, this plain passage of scripture can't mean what it plainly says about being disowned by God.

Yes, we are fixed in Christ, as long as we continue to believe in him and do not disown him along the way. You need to study the whole counsel of scripture.

So you have to continue to trust Christ's forgiveness to the very end to be saved.....why is that such a fearful doctrine to you? Some people will even put you on ignore for having that belief. What are you people afraid of? Seriously?

 

[Grace777x70]

And this below is the difference between "works righteousness" and "faith righteousness" for salvation. ( as in going to be with the Lord when we die )

This is "works-righteousness".

In the Old - you "did in order to get" In the New Covenant " you believe in order to receive" what Christ has already done. It's called the "word of faith" and it's enacted by speaking.

This is where works-based salvationists have a hard time with the gospel of the grace of Christ alone for salvation. They are mixing the covenants up and trying to do things in order to get and maintain salvation.

The pure gospel of the grace of Christ is offensive to this mindset and thus they need to do things in order to establish and maintain their own righteousness for salvation just like it was commanded in the Old Covenant.

In the New Covenant we receive Christ's righteousness because we believe NOT because "we do". This is "faith-righteousness".



Doing righteous deeds by themselves does not make one righteous. This is having the cart before the horse.

Doing righteous deeds because Christ has made us righteous is what 1 John chapter 3 is talking about. This shows the difference between the devil and those that belong to Christ. John was describing a believer and an unbeliever.

I know there have been "good" people doing "righteous deeds " but they were not belonging to God. Many religions have moral living people in them - all doing "righteous deeds".

Here is how righteousness is manifested in a believer....we need to be righteousness conscious...not sin-conscious...we have a new creation in Christ now! This "righteousness " will manifest outwardly in doing righteous deeds - but we need the "horse" in front first.

The "horse" being Christ's righteousness in us because of our being in Christ in our inner man..our new creation in Christ.

Awake to who you are in Christ!..Awake to righteousness and sin not..when you see who you are in Him in your new man...you will then manifest outwardly who you already are now in Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face,beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.


Hebrews 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13[/SUP] For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 54:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] "In righteousness you will be established; You will be far from oppression, for you will not fear; And from terror, for it will not come near you.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21[/SUP] He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

When you see who you are in Christ because of His finished work...you become outwardly in behavior what you are truly like in your new inner man where Christ dwells and His life gets manifested in love towards others in this hurt and dying world.

His life in produces His fruit being bore on us the branches which are seen as good works that are birthed in and from Him.

Get this backwards and say we "must do this fruit in order to be saved or to remain saved". - is called "works-righteousness" and it is NOT the gospel of the grace of God in Christ.

 

[UnderGrace]

The strength of the analogy is in its ability to reveal truth, Jesus was a lot smarter than you give him credit for.

The statement is made about the branch that is not part of him, if anyone does not abide in me, not a branch that disconnects itself from me...because He knew the branch depends on the vine for life.

Reality is a branch cannot disconnect itself even in the real world, it utterly dependent on the vine and the vinedresser to keep it healthy

Jesus used analogies.

We're not a tree. We're a human being.
Read John 15:5-6
JESUS said if we do not ABIDE IN HIM, we are thrown away as a dry branch and are thrown into the fire and burn.


John 15:5-6 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

 

[FranC]

Actually, and still, you don't know what you're talking about. You make a mockery of the sealing of the Spirit, and are facetious when speaking of it dismissively, as you do.

This sealing and its tense show that it cannot be undone, but is, in context of Ephesians 1:12-14 kept intact until the converted person experiences redemption.

That you believe a person can undo this work of the Spirit borders blasphemy, is utterly arrogant, ignorant of Gospel facts, and dismissive of the eternal work of God upon His elect.



Of course, no Scripture, just an asinine and sacrilegious illustration is offered concerning the work of the Spirit of God.

The above shows your blatant and facetious attitude toward the sealing of the Spirit upon His elect, comparing this to a package of lasagna.

It is, frankly, obtuse of you.

You really ought repent of your attitude towards the Spirits eternal sealing of His elect. You're opposing His eternal and gracious work.

Your posts are shocking.
You should be banned.

You attack those who do not agree with you. You've done it to me and I've ignored it but the above is unexcusable!

If there is anyone on this entire thread who is NOT facetious it would be PHart. He's the most serious person on this thread.
And the most knowledgeable. Sorry if you don't agree, but it happens to be true.

He dismisses nothing and understands all about tenses and context and everything else which YOU, apparently, think only YOU know about.

Blasphemy?
Go back and read your posts and then tell me who is being blasphemous. It is YOU my dear.

Because someone does not agree about the "sealing" which is not at all how you undertand it to be (all easy believers have an incorrect concept of the sealing) does not make him arrogant or sacrilegious - if so, then YOU are VERY arrogant and sacrilegious since you have completely incorrect doctrine about much.

AND you use a word which should not even be coming out of the mouth of a Christian.

Frankly, you sound very envious.
Maybe you should be.

 

[oldethennew]

that's an easy question to answer, PHart,
people are afraid of their continual dis-obedience...

(words we must remember = (REPENTANCE-OVER-COMING-INTECESSOR)...

 

[PHart]

His life in produces His fruit being bore on us the branches which are seen as good works that are birthed in and from Him.

Get this backwards and say we "must do this fruit in order to be saved or to remain saved". - is called "works-righteousness" and it is NOT the gospel of the grace of God in Christ.

No, you must have faith in order to remain saved. Your fruit is the proof of your faith. I know this is hard for the church to grasp because they have been bombarded with the doctrine of demons that says faith without proof of that faith will save you, too.

John said the confession of faith that does not have work accompanying it means you are not born again.

 

[FranC]

Zoe life is a quality of life, not just the existence of life itself. Did a quick Google search that will help with this:Three Greek Words for Life in the New Testament and How They Apply to Us | Bibles for America Weekly Blog

Only Christians have zoe life. And only obedient Christians get to enjoy it.

I checked out the link you posted.
Very good. Simple and direct.

Everyone should ready it. It also helps us to understand how our life should be here, right now.

 

[TruthTalk]

[video=youtube;8vhMfCJzXqk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vhMfCJzXqk[/video]

 

[FranC]

I have no affiliation to Calvinism,

But it seems once again you have missed what scripture is saying very plainly.


The word γεγέννηται as a perfect tense describes for the child of God that the kind of birth experienced out from the God is a “perfect birth,” that is, a birth that is completed in the past with present, continuing results. The New Birth is a perfect birth.

Thusly, the child of God is one who is generated out from the God and remains generated out from the God; further, the child of God is one who (because of his birth out from the God) is continuously believing



The perfect tense in Koine Greek, indisputably refers to a completed or once-and-for-all action in the past with a permanent result in the future. This language is deliberate and for a reason.

You have absolutely not argument against this, Koine Greek is the perfect language to express this reality. The once and for all action has a permanent future result.

If you spoke other languages you would understand this concept.

You said if PHart spoke other languages he'd understand the concept of the past action continuing to the future when you TRIED to explain something or other about koinè Greek.

Well, I speak 3 languages, maybe 4, AND IS STILL can tell you that you're WRONG.

Not only am I telling you this, but theologians who actually KNOW koinè Greek don't agree with you.


NEXT...

 

[stonesoffire]

See what you're doing? You're applying the famous circular reasoning of OSAS. You're saying OSAS is true, therefore, this plain passage of scripture can't mean what it plainly says about being disowned by God.

Yes, we are fixed in Christ, as long as we continue to believe in him and do not disown him along the way. You need to study the whole counsel of scripture.

So you have to continue to trust Christ's forgiveness to the very end to be saved.....why is that such a fearful doctrine to you? Some people will even put you on ignore for having that belief. What are you people afraid of? Seriously?

Its not fearful to me Phart. My heart is fixed on a goal of glory. But, it is to those who are struggling with flesh. Human nature.

I do know that battle. It will stop one from moving on. There is therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. I already stated one will hide for that is Adam. We need to know Adam died and Jesus reigns.

 

[PHart]

that's an easy question to answer, PHart,
people are afraid of their continual dis-obedience...

(words we must remember = (REPENTANCE-OVER-COMING-INTECESSOR)...

I suspect that is the reason.

I wonder how many people here watch Game of Thrones? I have never seen it, but I'm told it is loaded with nudity. Does the church have the courage to not watch it? I think that may be a good test of one's faith in the forgiveness of God. How do you purposely continue in the things for which God forgave you (lust, greed, etc.), except that perhaps that forgiveness isn't as highly valued as some people claim it is. But why should it be since the confession all by itself is enough, right? That's how the devil is deceiving the church at this present time.

 

[UnderGrace]

Since you mention Fran, I can say she has stated we are kept by works many, many times,

I think that those who need to deny eternal assurance for some reason, and keep coming back with a different playbook end up changing the argument and then end up contradicting themselves.

Christ does not need to use works as evidence of our faith, that just makes no sense.
He knows our faith, we are justified by our faith, not our works.

How could He justify us (a one time event) if He was not aware of our faith to justify us.....He does not look to our works to justify us!!!!

Our works are only evidence of our faith to the world, not God, so that others my come to a saving faith

How is doing righteous work because you have the finished work of Jesus applied to your life a 'works save' gospel? That's absurd.

Was this woman trying to earn her own salvation when she washed the feet of Jesus with her hair and tears?

"41“Two people owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii,[SUP]c[/SUP] and the other fifty.42Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he forgave the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?”43Simon replied, “I suppose the one who had the bigger debt forgiven.”“You have judged correctly,” Jesus said.44Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. 46You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. 47Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—as her great love has shown. But whoever has been forgiven little loves little.”48Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”49The other guests began to say among themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”50Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”" (Luke 7:41-50 NASB)​

Or was her work the evidence and outcome of the forgiveness she had received through Christ? You know the answer, so why do you insist that Fran's work can only be her trying to save herself? Work is what faith in God's forgiveness looks like, folks. If your 'faith' don't look like that, you may not have the faith you think you have.

That's why so many 'Christians' are going to be surprised on the Day of Judgment--they were deceived into thinking their worksless lives were irrelevant to their confession of faith, not knowing that Christ is going to use our works as the evidence of our faith in, and love for Him. Many will be sorely surprised and disappointed when they get to the Judgment with nothing but a cold, dead, worksless, OSAS confession (alone) of Christ.

 

[gb9]

I checked out the link you posted.
Very good. Simple and direct.

Everyone should ready it. It also helps us to understand how our life should be here, right now.

o,k, let's go deep , as you told me earlier. what you and others do is a thing that I have heard called reductionism, which is making a point, taking verses to back up that point without using context, chronological order, or using everything the Bible says about what ever subject you are speaking about.

this is very effective false teaching on folks who do not know Scripture that well. but, those of us that do see right through it.

want to go deeper, and get exposed more??

 

[FranC]

Here, read this:

[FONT=&]5. Perfect Tense[/FONT]
[FONT=&]The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present. Sample translation: "I have believed."[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Notice that the perfect tense carries two ideas: (1) completed action and (2) continuing results. The action was completed at some time in the past, and the results continue up to the present.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Example: We can see the perfect tense in action in 1 John 1:3: "What we have seen and [have] heard we proclaim to you also."[/FONT]
[FONT=&]The apostle John is making the point that he was an eyewitness to the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ, and that personal experience serves as the basis for the message that he proclaims decades later. You might paraphrase the first verb as "We saw Him, and we can still visualize what we saw." One writer has explained the second verb as "We heard Him, and His words are still ringing in our ears." John saw and heard Jesus many years earlier, and that era of his life has been completed. But the results continue. What he learned so many years ago remains with him now.

(From http://ezraproject.com/id27.html emphasis mine)
[/FONT]​

[FONT=&]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&]As you can see the Perfect tense does not mean the continuing results of the action completed goes on beyond the present and can not be stopped. It simply means whatever the results of the completed action are, they continue beyond the moment the action was completed.

Don't add 'those results can't be stopped' to the definition. For example, it's entirely possible in the example given above that a person could one day forget what someone told them years ago even though what they said many years ago had continued in their mind for a long time. [/FONT]

Good luck with the Greek PHart.
I know a theologian who knows Koinè Greek and reads the bible in Koinè Greek and he CONFIRMED everything you've posted above for UG.

It's TOO DIFFICULT for them to accept.
Once you stray from the Word of God, you must change and twist everything to conform to the incorrect belief.

 

[stonesoffire]

We begin with the blood of the Cross, and we live with the sprinkling of blood as we live. It is all of Him for our completed salvation.

And life is lived in and out of the power of Holy Spirit, called grace, freely given, and the giftings of this wonderful person of Holy Spirit is the means of our works.

We just flow with Him.

 

[FranC]

And because of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” (1 Cor 1:30-31)

i'll not go into a litany of anything i do.

do i believe Christians should obey God? indeed, i do.
do i believe Christians are meriting salvation (or the maintenance thereof) in their obedience? i do not.

Merit?
What does merit have to do with anything?

So you do not believe that our obedience does not "keep us saved"?
Interesting.

So if you show NO OBEDIENCE, is that not a DEAD FAITH??
James 2:14-26

Does JESUS Himself not say that if we love Him we will obey Him?
John 14:15

So if we DO NOT do good deeds or works, doesn't that mean, bu necessity that:
WE ARE NOT SAVED, or ARE NO LONGER SAVED

and
THAT WE DO NOT LOVE JESUS???

It seems to me that doing good works are a VERY REAL SIGN of our salvation.

Not me saying this:
James and Jesus saying this.
James

 

[FranC]

And because of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” (1 Cor 1:30-31)

i'll not go into a litany of anything i do.

do i believe Christians should obey God? indeed, i do.
do i believe Christians are meriting salvation (or the maintenance thereof) in their obedience? i do not.

P.S.
WHO'S BOASTING?

Why is it boasting to say I do good works for God?

Is this not a good testimony?
Does God not know our heart?

I love to tell my neighbors I go to Church because I believe God.

Do YOU boast because you like to say you DON'T do good works for God?

What is our church coming to???