Another requirement for salvation; Not that simple

[Jackson123]

You quoted in this your post Matthew 7:21-23. Where it says that Lord never knew those in that crowd.



These people never was God's possession, they never belonged to Him. To think of this verse as someone who was saved once and then lost his salvation is just ignorance. Nothing but ignorance. But notice one interesting thing with this crowd, their emphasis was on their own works, on their own efforts, not on the work of Christ.

at least These people think they are save. This people Said they do miracle in Jesus name, so they not emphasis oN their work, every body know human can not perform miracle. But they think God used them to do miracle, mean God trust them with miracle, they think they are God right hand, They must be save, because they are God right hand

but I do not believe salvation by work, salvation produce good work

 

[tribesman]

at least These people think they are save. This people Said they do miracle in Jesus name, so they not emphasis oN their work, every body know human can not perform miracle. But they think God used them to do miracle, mean God trust them with miracle, they think they are God right hand, They must be save, because they are God right hand

Maybe they thought they were saved. But its not true that they did not focus on/emphasized their own work. They did! And they though that their works (they attributed those works to themselves) would make them come to heaven.

but I do not believe salvation by work, salvation produce good work

You are trying now to have it both ways, but you cant have it both ways. As long as you believe that there are requirements for you to fulfill in order to gain salvation, then what do you believe in if not salvation by your own works? As long as you cling to your belief, which you have advocated here, then you believe that your works is what makes the difference between salvation and damnation. Time to get truthful, Jackson.

 

[tribesman]

1. If my interpretation about Martin or Calvin wrong, please correct me, tell me what is right

I just did in post #219.

2. Some people in my church, and I Remember some people in cc but I am not Remember in detail

I asked you to name who here on CC have such belief.

3. If he give back what he stole It may sign of repent, or may because get cought, It can be anything, but If he not intend to give back money he had stole than he is not repent. He believe there is No correlation between salvation and work

The thing I was aiming at was more how you view justification. To you all seem to be a matter of what one does. Not what Christ did. But of course your friend is in grave error of believing that there is no correlation between salvation and fruit.

4. I do not believe salvation by work, but I do believe salvation produce good work

Again, time to be truthful Jackson. You can't say like this and then at the same time say that there are requirements for salvation to be fulfilled by the sinner. We are supposed to keep the commandments of God as gratitude of having been already saved, not to hopefully fulfill some requirements to hopefully become righteous enough and by our own merit earn salvation.

If you believe it is your own work (not the work of Christ alone), to any degree, shape or form, that makes the ultimate difference between salvation and damnation, then you do not believe the gospel and you must repent and believe the gospel.

 

[Jackson123]

1 Maybe they thought they were saved. But its not true that they did not focus on/emphasized their own work. They did! And they though that their works (they attributed those works to themselves) would make them come to heaven.

2 You are trying now to have it both ways, but you cant have it both ways. As long as you believe that there are requirements for you to fulfill in order to gain salvation, then what do you believe in if not salvation by your own works? As long as you cling to your belief, which you have advocated here, then you believe that your works is what makes the difference between salvation and damnation. Time to get truthful, Jackson.

1. Like I Said before, they remind God that during they life God use them to perform miracle and prophecy, they never said they work hard like saling new paper and give all profit to the Lord. To me It is not emphasis their work. Every body know miracle is the work of God or demon, not human.

2. Like I say before, I make the title of this topic another requirement for salvation, with the expectation some not agree and explain why, so we can learn deeper, but I believe salvation by faith and faith produce agape work.

 

[Jackson123]

1I just did in post #219.

2 I asked you to name who here on CC have such belief.

3 The thing I was aiming at was more how you view justification. To you all seem to be a matter of what one does. Not what Christ did. But of course your friend is in grave error of believing that there is no correlation between salvation and fruit.

4 Again, time to be truthful Jackson. You can't say like this and then at the same time say that there are requirements for salvation to be fulfilled by the sinner. We are supposed to keep the commandments of God as gratitude of having been already saved, not to hopefully fulfill some requirements to hopefully become righteous enough and by our own merit earn salvation.

If you believe it is your own work (not the work of Christ alone), to any degree, shape or form, that makes the ultimate difference between salvation and damnation, then you do not believe the gospel and you must repent and believe the gospel.

1. I read # 219 and you not talk about : salvation is by faith alone but faith that save never alone ( martin lhuter)
I was quote same time ago, It was online. What is your interpretation oN that statement

2. I do not Remember the name

3. I believe what Jesus Said oN Matt 25, the judgement Will be oN the fruit of faith, when you see Me hungered you feed Me. You may do not believe what Jesus Said in Matt 25 don't you?

4.like I say, the word requirement I use to atract disagreement, so we learn deeper

 

[tribesman]

1. Like I Said before, they remind God that during they life God use them to perform miracle and prophecy, they never said they work hard like saling new paper and give all profit to the Lord. To me It is not emphasis their work. Every body know miracle is the work of God or demon, not human.

You are beating around the bush and split hairs. Why? It is not a discussion here who made miracles, or whom miracles may be accredited to, the discussion centers around people who think that their works, or something in them, or some requirement they have to fulfill, is the condition for their salvation. They said to the Lord, "have we not..done many wonderful works"? They obviously thought that their "part" in it should make a way to heaven for them. Rather than understanding that only the work of the Lord grants that way.

2. Like I say before, I make the title of this topic another requirement for salvation, with the expectation some not agree and explain why, so we can learn deeper, but I believe salvation by faith and faith produce agape work.

You should at least be honest Jackson and say that you believe that you have to fulfill some list of requirements in order to get saved than to now contradict yourself and say that faith produces good work. Few would agree with the latter, but any christian of sound mind should definitely denounce the former. Or are you here to argue?

 

[tribesman]

1. I read # 219 and you not talk about : salvation is by faith alone but faith that save never alone ( martin lhuter) I was quote same time ago, It was online. What is your interpretation oN that statement

Talking about learning you should begin to check sources of quotes, not just swallow anything you read in some blog or something somewhere. The quote, ad verbatim, is actually from Calvin. Luther said something similar in context however, so they would be in agreement. My interpretation of same? I take the word for it and agree. Faith produces fruit, including good works. But do not think that you are in agreement with them or anyone else who agree with them. Your conditionalist requirements-heresy is worlds apart from what they taught. So don't be dishonest and try to justify your junk with the name of Luther.

2. I do not Remember the name

What point is it to bring up something like that unless you can name them? Just gossiping.

3. I believe what Jesus Said oN Matt 25, the judgement Will be oN the fruit of faith, when you see Me hungered you feed Me. You may do not believe what Jesus Said in Matt 25 don't you?

*shaking head* Of course I believe this. But you think that is all about requirements you must fulfill to hopefully make it. Not a fruit of having been justified.

4.like I say, the word requirement I use to atract disagreement, so we learn deeper

That's how it sounds now. I see much dishonesty in you here, changing now your version of bit, but not realizing your stray. Maybe you realize your stray here and repent from same or you will carry on to the worse.

 

[Jackson123]

Talking about learning you should begin to check sources of quotes, not just swallow anything you read in some blog or something somewhere. The quote, ad verbatim, is actually from Calvin. Luther said something similar in context however, so they would be in agreement. My interpretation of same? I take the word for it and agree. Faith produces fruit, including good works. But do not think that you are in agreement with them or anyone else who agree with them. Your conditionalist requirements-heresy is worlds apart from what they taught. So don't be dishonest and try to justify your junk with the name of Luther.

What point is it to bring up something like that unless you can name them? Just gossiping.

*shaking head* Of course I believe this. But you think that is all about requirements you must fulfill to hopefully make it. Not a fruit of having been justified.

That's how it sounds now. I see much dishonesty in you here, changing now your version of bit, but not realizing your stray. Maybe you realize your stray here and repent from same or you will carry on to the worse.

you think I change now? Please read #23 I explain why I make the title used word requirement

 

[DJ2]

Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report."

We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16).

Anyone who has read the scriptures with an open mind can see that there is more to obeying the gospel than believing it. Those who truly believe the gospel understand the need to obey. Those who do not understand this fall into the bogus notion that obeying the commands of Jesus are but simple signs of faith instead of necessary acts of faith.

Verses such as Acts 2:38, 1st Peter 3:21, Mark 16:16 or Acts 22:16 are not written in such a way as to imply a sign of faith but are worded to imply a necessary act of faith toward the remission of sins. It is this fact of grammar that those of the "believe only" groups are unwilling to accept.

These verses have no place in the Bible if salvation is strictly confined to the trusting that Jesus will save them.

Ignoring them, twisting them or as some do, declaring them biblical errors will not save but doom many.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Obey His gospel, in a nutshell.

and what s the gospel? Believe on the name of Jesus and you will be saved.

The penalty of sin sin is death, the GIFT of God is life, and he calls that live eternal.

So so other than this, what can you do to get one sin forgiven?


By by the way Hebrews tells us there is only one thing, so again, what is it

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Anyone who has read the scriptures with an open mind can see that there is more to obeying the gospel than believing it. Those who truly believe the gospel understand the need to obey. Those who do not understand this fall into the bogus notion that obeying the commands of Jesus are but simple signs of faith instead of necessary acts of faith.

Verses such as Acts 2:38, 1st Peter 3:21, Mark 16:16 or Acts 22:16 are not written in such a way as to imply a sign of faith but are worded to imply a necessary act of faith toward the remission of sins. It is this fact of grammar that those of the "believe only" groups are unwilling to accept.

These verses have no place in the Bible if salvation is strictly confined to the trusting that Jesus will save them.

Ignoring them, twisting them or as some do, declaring them biblical errors will not save but doom many.

so we are not dav d by faith, but by works,,

what works?

 

[DJ2]

so we are not dav d by faith, but by works,,

what works?

I never wrote that we are saved by faith or works. I wrote that we are saved by obedience to the gospel of Christ.

Focus on what is written not on what is not written.

 

[Grace777x70]

We are saved by the call to believe in the gospel. That is the obedience of faith and from that comes all other aspects of the life of Christ being manifested in us.

Mark 1:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

Change the way you are thinking and believe in the gospel message of Christ which is all received by grace through faith in Christ's work alone.

Being "obedient to the faith" is believing in Christ and His work for us for life and living.

Notice here that even the law-keeping - good moral living priests need to be "obedient to the faith".

The keeping of the law of Moses is NOT the same as being "obedient to the faith".

Acts 6:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith.


Pagans/Gentiles also need to be "obedient to the faith" and believe in Christ and what He has done for life and living.

Romans 1:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,


All people of all types are called to be "obedient to the faith" - which is belief in Christ alone for life and living.

Romans 16:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;

 

[Jackson123]

We are saved by the call to believe in the gospel. That is the obedience of faith and from that comes all other aspects of the life of Christ being manifested in us.

Mark 1:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

Change the way you are thinking and believe in the gospel message of Christ which is all received by grace through faith in Christ's work alone.

Being "obedient to the faith" is believing in Christ and His work for us for life and living.

Notice here that even the law-keeping - good moral living priests need to be "obedient to the faith".

The keeping of the law of Moses is NOT the same as being "obedient to the faith".

Acts 6:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith.


Pagans/Gentiles also need to be "obedient to the faith" and believe in Christ and what He has done for life and living.

Romans 1:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,


All people of all types are called to be "obedient to the faith" - which is belief in Christ alone for life and living.

Romans 16:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;

look confusing to me, seem to me obidience is to Jesus, mean do what Jesus instruct to us.

Seem to me the word believe also mean obedience.


John 3

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Jesus Said for salvation only need believe

Matt 7

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven

the same Jesus said

matt7
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven

Matt 25

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

the same Jesus Said salvation is for person that love the poor/agape love.

I can go oN and oN, but why Jesus always change

What is the requirement of Salvation ?

believe or do the Will of the Father/obedience or agape love?

My personal opinion is

believe = do the Will of the Father = do agape love.

and to be able to do agape love, we need to believe/abide to the Vine
branch can not bear fruit of itself, the fruit of Holy Spirit is agape love, Eros love or phileo love, no need to be christian

I can go on and on,

Believe, obedience and agape love is interconnected, but the ultimate goal is love.

1 Corinthian 13.

seem to me love is the end product.

believe/faith produce obedience and obedience/abide produce agape love.

1 Corinthian 13


13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

no wonder in matt 25 Jesus judge base on the product of faith, and that is agape love.

 

[Jackson123]

look confusing to me, seem to me obidience is to Jesus, mean do what Jesus instruct to us.

Seem to me the word believe also mean obedience.


John 3

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Jesus Said for salvation only need believe

Matt 7

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven

the same Jesus said

matt7
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven

Matt 25

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

the same Jesus Said salvation is for person that love the poor/agape love.

I can go oN and oN, but why Jesus always change

What is the requirement of Salvation ?

believe or do the Will of the Father/obedience or agape love?

My personal opinion is

believe = do the Will of the Father = do agape love.

and to be able to do agape love, we need to believe/abide to the Vine
branch can not bear fruit of itself, the fruit of Holy Spirit is agape love, Eros love or phileo love, no need to be christian

I can go on and on,

Believe, obedience and agape love is interconnected, but the ultimate goal is love.

1 Corinthian 13.

seem to me love is the end product.

believe/faith produce obedience and obedience/abide produce agape love.

1 Corinthian 13


13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

no wonder in matt 25 Jesus judge base on the product of faith, and that is agape love.

After pondering what I just post, I will make little correction

believe or faith > obedience or abide > agape love > salvation.

the last judgement in Matt 25 Jesus judge base of agape love as a product of faith. That mean if a man claim to be Christian but do not have agape love, he is lie, he is not Christian and not save.

 

[DJ2]

We are saved by the call to believe in the gospel. That is the obedience of faith and from that comes all other aspects of the life of Christ being manifested in us.

Mark 1:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

Change the way you are thinking and believe in the gospel message of Christ which is all received by grace through faith in Christ's work alone.

Being "obedient to the faith" is believing in Christ and His work for us for life and living.

Notice here that even the law-keeping - good moral living priests need to be "obedient to the faith".

The keeping of the law of Moses is NOT the same as being "obedient to the faith".

Acts 6:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith.


Pagans/Gentiles also need to be "obedient to the faith" and believe in Christ and what He has done for life and living.

Romans 1:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,


All people of all types are called to be "obedient to the faith" - which is belief in Christ alone for life and living.

Romans 16:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;

We may differ on what needs to be obeyed but not the obligation to obey.

Do you agree with this statement as written?

 

[Grace777x70]

We may differ on what needs to be obeyed but not the obligation to obey.

Do you agree with this statement as written?

I believe that all people need to be obedient to believe in the gospel message of Christ's forgiveness of sins. Just like Jesus said in Mark 1:15

"Repent and believe in the gospel."

The sons of dis-obedience are those that refuse to believe in Christ's sacrifice for sins. This is the willful sinning that Hebrews 10:26 is talking about. There remains no more sacrifice for sins. Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

 

[DJ2]

I believe that all people need to be obedient to believe in the gospel message of Christ's forgiveness of sins. Just like Jesus said in Mark 1:15

"Repent and believe in the gospel."

The sons of dis-obedience are those that refuse to believe in Christ's sacrifice for sins. This is the willful sinning that Hebrews 10:26 is talking about. There remains no more sacrifice for sins. Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

Your words are but generalities. My question was not a trick, just a way to have common ground.

Since you will not answer, I will assume you only accept "trust" as needed for salvation. You believe if someone "trusts" that Jesus will save them, they are saved. Nothing more need. Am I correct?

 

[mailmandan]

Anyone who has read the scriptures with an open mind can see that there is more to obeying the gospel than believing it. Those who truly believe the gospel understand the need to obey.

Again, we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16). Choosing to believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation is the act of obedience that saves (Romans 1:16).

Those who do not understand this fall into the bogus notion that obeying the commands of Jesus are but simple signs of faith instead of necessary acts of faith.

You need to accept the truth that the gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works (including water baptism) to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen as the Savior of all those who trust in Him alone for salvation.

Verses such as Acts 2:38, 1st Peter 3:21, Mark 16:16 or Acts 22:16 are not written in such a way as to imply a sign of faith but are worded to imply a necessary act of faith toward the remission of sins. It is this fact of grammar that those of the "believe only" groups are unwilling to accept.

The remission of sins is signified, but not procured in water baptism. I already explained these verses to you in this thread below, but you stubbornly refuse to accept the truth.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/151495-eis-dia-hoti-10.html

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/151495-eis-dia-hoti-7.html#post3088563

These verses have no place in the Bible if salvation is strictly confined to the trusting that Jesus will save them.

Ignoring them, twisting them or as some do, declaring them biblical errors will not save but doom many.

There are a multitude of Bible verses that make it clear that salvation is through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications" (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 10:4; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8 etc..). Twisting those verses and trying to force them to conform to your biased interpretation of a handful of verses on baptism taken out of context is the result of flawed hermeneutics. Trusting in works for salvation instead of Christ alone will doom many. You need to learn to properly harmonize scripture with scripture in order to reach to proper conclusion on doctrine instead of cherry picking and perverting passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" your so called gospel plan.

 

[Grace777x70]

Your words are but generalities. My question was not a trick, just a way to have common ground.

Since you will not answer, I will assume you only accept "trust" as needed for salvation. You believe if someone "trusts" that Jesus will save them, they are saved. Nothing more need. Am I correct?

Here exactly what is needed to be saved.

True biblical belief is of the heart - not in the head or mind. God looks on the heart - man look on the outward appearance.

Getting "saved" is simple but it isn't cheap or easy believism as some say in a derrogatory way - it cost our Lord His life and blood to obtain eternal redemption for us..

Romans 10:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

[SUP]10 [/SUP] for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The process is simple too.

1) we hear the message of Christ - the gospel of our salvation in Him

2) we believe the message from our hearts

3) we were sealed with the Holy Spirit

( Jesus said in John 14:16 that the Holy Spirit will be with us and in us forever - now was Jesus lying or is he like a "bait and switch" car salesman that has "fine print" which He doesn't talk about )

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, = 1)

the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, = 2)

you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, = 3)

you were sealed = aorist indicative tense / passive voice = a one time event in the past.

Passive voice = the sealing was not done by us but by an outside force - the Holy Spirit Himself.