Another requirement for salvation; Not that simple

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
Here exactly what is needed to be saved.

True biblical belief is of the heart - not in the head or mind. God looks on the heart - man look on the outward appearance.

Getting "saved" is simple but it isn't cheap or easy believism as some say in a derrogatory way - it cost our Lord His life and blood to obtain eternal redemption for us..

Romans 10:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

[SUP]10 [/SUP] for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The process is simple too.

1) we hear the message of Christ - the gospel of our salvation in Him

2) we believe the message from our hearts

3) we were sealed with the Holy Spirit

( Jesus said in John 14:16 that the Holy Spirit will be with us and in us forever - now was Jesus lying or is he like a "bait and switch" car salesman that has "fine print" which He doesn't talk about )

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, = 1)

the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, = 2)

you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, = 3)


you were sealed =
aorist indicative tense / passive voice = a one time event in the past.

Passive voice = the sealing was not done by us but by an outside force - the Holy Spirit Himself.

After reading your reply, it seems your notion of salvation is "trusting" He will save equals He will save.
You add a multi step process but in the end its still "trust' He will save and that "trust" is what grants grace.

The verses you present are general in nature as is most of the Bible and cannot be labeled as comprehensive.

Example: If Ephesians 1:13 is definitive then Romans 10:9-10 is wrong for adding two other requirements toward salvation.

This is the error of labeling a patchwork of general statements as theology.
 

meagain1945

Junior Member
Aug 17, 2017
25
0
0
DJ2 YES, I DO believe that statement. Salvation is a gift of God. DO NOT make a liar out of the ONE WHO
paid that awful price for our salvation
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
DJ2 YES, I DO believe that statement. Salvation is a gift of God. DO NOT make a liar out of the ONE WHO
paid that awful price for our salvation
is that gift for every body or for one WHO obey Him
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
DJ2 YES, I DO believe that statement. Salvation is a gift of God. DO NOT make a liar out of the ONE WHO
paid that awful price for our salvation
The plan of salvation is rather simple.

All repentant believers who confess Jesus as Lord are granted the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit at baptism
.

This is the gospel.

If you can look at this statement and call it a lie then I suggest you are the one who is belittling the work of the Lord Jesus Christ. Verses such as Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Mark 16:16, 1st Peter 3:21 etc. are not to be ignored or twisted. Those who deny the commands of God to believe, confess, repent and be baptized will be without their wedding clothes on the Day of Judgement (Matthew 22:1-14). Do not think it is a small thing to call obedience to the commands of salvation a lie, as you have done.

God is not mocked. These verses are not "filler and fluff" but as important to salvation as the washing at the Pool of Siloam was the the blind man (John 9:7). No obedience, no healing.

Salvation is the gift of God. Calling the proper response to this gift a lie is something you will have to answer for.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
is that gift for every body or for one WHO obey Him
Try as you may, you will not get a straight answer. Those of the "trust only" sects see trusting that they will be saved as the only thing that is required. Therefore no obedience is needed. This is the absurd ending that this reasoning leads to.

Simply put, if you "trust" that Jesus will save you then you are saved. This is their gospel.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
Again, we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16). Choosing to believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation is the act of obedience that saves (Romans 1:16).

You need to accept the truth that the gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works (including water baptism) to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen as the Savior of all those who trust in Him alone for salvation.

The remission of sins is signified, but not procured in water baptism. I already explained these verses to you in this thread below, but you stubbornly refuse to accept the truth. :(

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/151495-eis-dia-hoti-10.html

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/151495-eis-dia-hoti-7.html#post3088563

There are a multitude of Bible verses that make it clear that salvation is through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications" (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 10:4; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8 etc..). Twisting those verses and trying to force them to conform to your biased interpretation of a handful of verses on baptism taken out of context is the result of flawed hermeneutics. Trusting in works for salvation instead of Christ alone will doom many. You need to learn to properly harmonize scripture with scripture in order to reach to proper conclusion on doctrine instead of cherry picking and perverting passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" your so called gospel plan.
It is you who needs to review that thread. It is nothing more than you struggling to convince yourself that 2+2=5.
 

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,125
135
63
Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,464
13,409
113
58
After reading your reply, it seems your notion of salvation is "trusting" He will save equals He will save.
You add a multi step process but in the end its still "trust' He will save and that "trust" is what grants grace.

The verses you present are general in nature as is most of the Bible and cannot be labeled as comprehensive.
It's you who adds a multi step process that culminates in being saved by water baptism, which negates salvation through faith/believing the gospel.

Example: If Ephesians 1:13 is definitive then Romans 10:9-10 is wrong for adding two other requirements toward salvation.
Ephesians 1:13 is definitive and Romans 10:9,10 is not wrong. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation, (believe today/still lost; confess next week/finally saved next week) but are chronologically together:

Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, *(notice the reverse order from verse 9-10)* - that if you confess with your mouth Jesus that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

*​If we must be water baptized before we are saved (baptism made unto salvation), then Romans 10:9,10 is wrong. Confess precedes water baptism in your 4 step plan of salvation.

This is the error of labeling a patchwork of general statements as theology.
It's you who distorts and perverts passages of Scripture in an effort to "patch together" your so called gospel plan.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,464
13,409
113
58
It is you who needs to review that thread. It is nothing more than you struggling to convince yourself that 2+2=5.
I have reviewed that thread and I have no struggle with convincing myself of the truth that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

It's you who struggles to accept the truth and believe the gospel because you are unable to see anything beyond your church of Christ indoctrination. :(
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
It's you who adds a multi step process that culminates in being saved by water baptism, which negates salvation through faith/believing the gospel.

Ephesians 1:13 is definitive and Romans 10:9,10 is not wrong. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation, (believe today/still lost; confess next week/finally saved next week) but are chronologically together:

Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, *(notice the reverse order from verse 9-10)* - that if you confess with your mouth Jesus that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

*​If we must be water baptized before we are saved (baptism made unto salvation), then Romans 10:9,10 is wrong. Confess precedes water baptism in your 4 step plan of salvation.

It's you who distorts and perverts passages of Scripture in an effort to "patch together" your so called gospel plan.
It is rather clear that you do not understand the meaning of the word, "definitive".

a. serving to provide a final solution or to end a situation.
b. authoritative and apparently exhaustive
c. serving as a perfect example
d. serving to define or specify precisely

Merriam-Webster.com

You cannot add to a definitive.

If Ephesians 1:13 is truly definitive (as you claim) then adding verbal confession or injecting a mandatory detail on what is to be believed is wrong.

This is the common error of the "trust only" sects, an error that they are willfully blind to.

Taking verses such as John 3:16 and painting them with such a broad brush as to imply that they are all-encompassing and exhaustive in detail is foolishness. This type of reasoning is used to prop up the "trust only" theology. This train of thought would never be used in other parts of the Bible or even in our daily lives.

Example: Would you label Proverbs 22:6 as definitive and blame the parents for the sins of the children?
Example: Demand a store accept your Canadian dollars since the tv ad did not specify U.S. dollars?

There are tacit understandings in both verbal and written language that cannot be ignored.

It is this willful ignorance that the "trust only" theology is built on.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
Acts 16:30-31 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"


[SUP]31 [/SUP]
They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
Acts 16:30-31 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"


[SUP]31 [/SUP]
They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Do you see the statement "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved" as definitive? If so, why? Explain why it is worded in the general?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
Acts 16:30-31 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"


[SUP]31 [/SUP]
They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Matt 7
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven

matt 25
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,464
13,409
113
58
It is rather clear that you do not understand the meaning of the word, "definitive".

a. serving to provide a final solution or to end a situation.
b. authoritative and apparently exhaustive
c. serving as a perfect example
d. serving to define or specify precisely

Merriam-Webster.com
I do understand the meaning of the word, definitive.

You cannot add to a definitive.
I'm not adding to a definitive, you are. You add repent, confess, baptism to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. You also reverse the scriptural order of repent and believe.

If Ephesians 1:13 is truly definitive (as you claim) then adding verbal confession or injecting a mandatory detail on what is to be believed is wrong.
Ephesians 1:13 says believe the gospel "apart from additions or modification" and the result is sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise. To believe the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. Ephesians 1:13 does not say, believe the gospel, then afterwards verbal confession, then after that baptism, then finally you are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.

Once again, confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation (believe today/still lost; confess next week/finally saved next week) but are chronologically together, so I'm not adding verbal confession to a definitive. If confession was a separate, distinct requirement to become saved "after" we believe the gospel/place faith in Christ for salvation (believe the gospel today/still lost; confess next week/finally saved next week) then multiple passages of Scripture would be incomplete and wrong (John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 10:4; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8 etc..) God forbid!

Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching. It's not the confession in of itself that saves you as an additional requirement after faith. It's the faith behind the confession. So what about someone who is unable to speak (moot). How could they confess with their mouth? Such a person would remain lost according to your erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10.

*​If we must be water baptized before we are saved (baptism made unto salvation), then Romans 10:9,10 is wrong. Confess precedes water baptism in your 4 step plan of salvation and Paul said "confession is made unto salvation." hmm...

This is the common error of the "trust only" sects, an error that they are willfully blind to.
The people who are willfully blind are the "trust in works" sects who stubbornly refuse to believe the gospel/trust in Christ alone for salvation. Paul explains why in 2 Corinthians 4:3 - But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Taking verses such as John 3:16 and painting them with such a broad brush as to imply that they are all-encompassing and exhaustive in detail is foolishness. This type of reasoning is used to prop up the "trust only" theology. This train of thought would never be used in other parts of the Bible or even in our daily lives.
So what Jesus said in John 3:16 is a lie? Did Jesus really mean to "add a check list of works" to John 3:16 but forgot to mention it? Your reasoning is foolishness. 1 Corinthians 1:18 - For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Roman Catholics seem to have bought into your faulty human logic as well. I was once in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who claims that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works (just because they don't teach we are saved by perfectly obeying the law), but then afterwards, he said this below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith".
Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES:

Being baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, Works of mercy and charity, Obeying his commandments.

Of course that is absolutely false! What this Roman Catholic is saying is that faith "is" baptism, faith "is" multiple acts of obedience, faith "is" works. It's no wonder that people teach salvation by works when they basically define faith as works and try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith. :rolleyes:

Example: Would you label Proverbs 22:6 as definitive and blame the parents for the sins of the children?
Example: Demand a store accept your Canadian dollars since the tv ad did not specify U.S. dollars?

There are tacit understandings in both verbal and written language that cannot be ignored.

It is this willful ignorance that the "trust only" theology is built on.
It's your willful ignorance that causes you to trust in "water and works" for salvation and NOT in CHRIST ALONE. Then you use faulty human logic to try and explain away the truth. Your Campbell soup theology is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics and you desperately need to repent and believe the gospel. Only then will the blinders be removed.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,670
6,860
113
REQUIREMENTS for salvation? Did I miss something? Did Jesus NOT SAY "only believe?" Did God NOT SAY "whosoever believeth in Him?"

Seems to me if there is a "requirement," it is singular and not plural, right?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,464
13,409
113
58
REQUIREMENTS for salvation? Did I miss something? Did Jesus NOT SAY "only believe?" Did God NOT SAY "whosoever believeth in Him?"

Seems to me if there is a "requirement," it is singular and not plural, right?
Amen! Those who are in the "works salvation" camp are unable to grasp that truth. They insist on "adding" a check list of works to "believes in Him." Such people take both faith AND works, then wrap them both up in a package and simply stamp faith on the package.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
Matt 7
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven

matt 25
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Read Matt 7 in context and you will see Jesus is talking about false prophets - not true Christians. Jesus said He never "knew" them.

Matt. 25 is a "description" of what the life of Christ looks like when manifested. It is not meant for obtaining salvation. Giving one cup of water to someone or feeding someone are all signs of His life and love for others. Rom. 5:5

If "these works" were needed - does not only a one time visit meet these requirements?

How many times does one need to "do these things" in order to be saved? Does it mean every person in the world that needs help - if you don't help them you go to hell now? Of course not - it's a bunch of religious nonsense.

Doing good works birthed from His life in us will manifest in some form or other and they are descriptions of His love in action to others.

Get the gospel backwards and we create a religion.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
REQUIREMENTS for salvation? Did I miss something? Did Jesus NOT SAY "only believe?" Did God NOT SAY "whosoever believeth in Him?"

Seems to me if there is a "requirement," it is singular and not plural, right?
so do you believe that after believe in Jesus, you save, No matter what you do, killing or robing only reduce your reward, but not affect your salvation?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
Amen! Those who are in the "works salvation" camp are unable to grasp that truth. They insist on "adding" a check list of works to "believes in Him." Such people take both faith AND works, then wrap them both up in a package and simply stamp faith on the package.
Do you think James WHO Said faith without work is death include in the camp?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113

Read Matt 7 in context and you will see Jesus is talking about false prophets - not true Christians. Jesus said He never "knew" them.

Matt. 25 is a "description" of what the life of Christ looks like when manifested. It is not meant for obtaining salvation. Giving one cup of water to someone or feeding someone are all signs of His life and love for others. Rom. 5:5

If "these works" were needed - does not only a one time visit meet these requirements?

How many times does one need to "do these things" in order to be saved? Does it mean every person in the world that needs help - if you don't help them you go to hell now? Of course not - it's a bunch of religious nonsense.

Doing good works birthed from His life in us will manifest in some form or other and they are descriptions of His love in action to others.

Get the gospel backwards and we create a religion.
Jesus Said He never know them, and Jesus also Said not every one WHO say unto me Lord go to heaven, only one WHO does the Will of the Father in heaven.

the Will of the Father is to do agape love.