Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
This idea you can lose a free gift you never earned is exactly why Catholics go to the bedside of a dying person, so they can get saved again before they die. If we truly believe people can lose their salvation, and they spend eternity in hell, let's monitor the hospitals to make sure no one dies saved, but lost their salvation, and got saved, and lost their salvation, etc. This is exactly why Catholics have you pray to the saints so they will implore God to keep you saved as you live day by day.
And then to make things even more crazy, the same people who say you have to stay saved, then go on to attack what belief means... adding these parameters like mental assent vs true heart belief... how do you even know? Silence from that crowd. It doesn't really matter as long as you believe you can lose your salvation, well then you must be holy because you're trying really hard to stay saved so you must be saved. And you're not a sinner like those other OSAS sinners. Because you know they believe they can sin and still go to Heaven so they must be the WORST sinners alive.
Something along the lines of, "They give people a license to sin!! Don't they know that people have to fear for their salvation??? That's the only way people will stay saved!!"
The focus is on staying saved, staying holy, keep believing... keep pushing, keep contending, stay in the faith or you're going to burn for eternity... yet none of that focus is about God. It's about self-driven effort.
This has been a continual tradition in the Church. And then we wonder why Christians struggle with loving one another. Because so few know the love of God for themselves. But they sure know how to LOOK holy and tell people how much a SINNER they are. They are REAL good at that. But loving people? The ONE Command Jesus gave us? Ehhhhh... that's okay we can just ignore that one. I see it ALL the time.
So keep telling people what's wrong with them and I'll keep telling people what's right with them in Christ. And let's see which message bears more fruit.
And then to make things even more crazy, the same people who say you have to stay saved, then go on to attack what belief means... adding these parameters like mental assent vs true heart belief... how do you even know? Silence from that crowd. It doesn't really matter as long as you believe you can lose your salvation, well then you must be holy because you're trying really hard to stay saved so you must be saved. And you're not a sinner like those other OSAS sinners. Because you know they believe they can sin and still go to Heaven so they must be the WORST sinners alive.
Something along the lines of, "They give people a license to sin!! Don't they know that people have to fear for their salvation??? That's the only way people will stay saved!!"
The focus is on staying saved, staying holy, keep believing... keep pushing, keep contending, stay in the faith or you're going to burn for eternity... yet none of that focus is about God. It's about self-driven effort.
This has been a continual tradition in the Church. And then we wonder why Christians struggle with loving one another. Because so few know the love of God for themselves. But they sure know how to LOOK holy and tell people how much a SINNER they are. They are REAL good at that. But loving people? The ONE Command Jesus gave us? Ehhhhh... that's okay we can just ignore that one. I see it ALL the time.
So keep telling people what's wrong with them and I'll keep telling people what's right with them in Christ. And let's see which message bears more fruit.
Last edited:
Not quite, you simply show again how far off track you are by your above statement. You believe you're saving yourself if you keep on doing something and this is none other than assisting Christ of whom you see as not giving to you complete salvation and whose work is then incomplete. To you God's Gospel attempt is incomplete and will fail unless you help him save you.
That said, your misunderstanding of biblical text is remarkable. No church fathers believed your nonsense, nor preached your works gospel.
That said, your misunderstanding of biblical text is remarkable. No church fathers believed your nonsense, nor preached your works gospel.
P
We don't need to do that because once a person loses his salvation it's over, you can't get it back. God will not allow it.
True believing is ultimately characterized by keeping God's commands. That's how one knows he is saved. He sees Jesus growing inside of Him so he knows he possesses the promises, just as Sarah knew for a fact that God was keeping his promise to her for a Son by the fact that she could see him growing ever larger inside of her.
We know we are holy when our actions are holy. The Bible says assurance of salvation comes from what you do:
I differ from Calvinistic OSAS in that I believe that the true believer can indeed later reject and deny Christ. Calvinism says if you stop believing you were never a true believer to begin with. As for H-grace....that's an utter joke. People who do not believe (because they stopped believing) will most certainly not be in heaven, lol. God is not going to pollute perfection with the presence of the unbelieving.
Actually, the Bible refers to it as 'holding fast'.
God is the author and finisher of our faith. You have to rely on Him to have the faith to continue to believe. Through his encouragement we choose to continue to believe, just like we chose to start that believing in the first place when we were first saved.
True believing is ultimately characterized by keeping God's commands. That's how one knows he is saved. He sees Jesus growing inside of Him so he knows he possesses the promises, just as Sarah knew for a fact that God was keeping his promise to her for a Son by the fact that she could see him growing ever larger inside of her.
We know we are holy when our actions are holy. The Bible says assurance of salvation comes from what you do:
"18Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. 19We will know by this that we are of the truth" (1 John 3:18 NASB)
"if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us" (1 John 4:12-13 NASB)
"3By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked."" (1 John 2:3-6 NASB)
You're confusing H-grace OSAS with Calvinistic OSAS. It is H-grace OSAS that says a person can stop believing and they will still go to heaven. Calvinism, on the other hand, defends the necessity for continued believing with good works being the proof of that continued believing/salvation. "if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us" (1 John 4:12-13 NASB)
"3By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked."" (1 John 2:3-6 NASB)
I differ from Calvinistic OSAS in that I believe that the true believer can indeed later reject and deny Christ. Calvinism says if you stop believing you were never a true believer to begin with. As for H-grace....that's an utter joke. People who do not believe (because they stopped believing) will most certainly not be in heaven, lol. God is not going to pollute perfection with the presence of the unbelieving.
Actually, the Bible refers to it as 'holding fast'.
God is the author and finisher of our faith. You have to rely on Him to have the faith to continue to believe. Through his encouragement we choose to continue to believe, just like we chose to start that believing in the first place when we were first saved.
Last edited:
Hey G777!
I was going through this thread, the posts I hadn't read and I came to the picture of that somber looking guy you post from time to time and I decided to google him.
I found the first chapter of one of his books (D Martin Lloyd Jones) and he described that "second freedom" that came to me last week or so, and get this - he described it in the same way I did! The man whose sight was given to him in two stages!!
I'm going to see if his book isn't too awful expensive on kindle because I just sold a lot of my furniture to an interior designer!
I was going through this thread, the posts I hadn't read and I came to the picture of that somber looking guy you post from time to time and I decided to google him.
I found the first chapter of one of his books (D Martin Lloyd Jones) and he described that "second freedom" that came to me last week or so, and get this - he described it in the same way I did! The man whose sight was given to him in two stages!!
I'm going to see if his book isn't too awful expensive on kindle because I just sold a lot of my furniture to an interior designer!
If you can lose your salvation and not get it back, we are all in trouble.
I know what Scripture you're taking this idea from, but it's not at all correct.
The idea that you look at your actions to determine if your saved is circumstantial at best. Which actions? What does holy look like? Maybe your holiness and my holiness are different? After all Paul said they were when he compared people who EAT meat sacrificed and those who didn't. He said our heart had a LOT to do with it. What about people who are scared they will lose their salvation? Have they already what do you tell them?
I can't imagine what your gospel sounds like when you're teaching to a new convert. Okay, so I hope you stay saved, but if you don't you're done. So make sure you do everything the Bible teaches. Okay you ready to accept Jesus? Here's a 5 page list of things you're going to need to give up... you don't listen to rock music do you? No more of that. Also you know your body is his temple? What you eat junk food, you take pharmaceuticals, you smoke??? Oh you're out. See me when you're ready to really give it all up. Hope you don't die first. Remember, Jesus loves you!
There is no security at all in what you're teaching the Bible teaches.
Love one another. Do you love people 100%? What if Jesus meant you're supposed to sell all and give it to the poor, have you done it? Jesus told someone he had to do it to be saved. So why doesn't this apply to you?
This is such a slippery slope.
Holding fast is believing you're a new creation in Christ. It's not trying to be one.
I know what Scripture you're taking this idea from, but it's not at all correct.
The idea that you look at your actions to determine if your saved is circumstantial at best. Which actions? What does holy look like? Maybe your holiness and my holiness are different? After all Paul said they were when he compared people who EAT meat sacrificed and those who didn't. He said our heart had a LOT to do with it. What about people who are scared they will lose their salvation? Have they already what do you tell them?
I can't imagine what your gospel sounds like when you're teaching to a new convert. Okay, so I hope you stay saved, but if you don't you're done. So make sure you do everything the Bible teaches. Okay you ready to accept Jesus? Here's a 5 page list of things you're going to need to give up... you don't listen to rock music do you? No more of that. Also you know your body is his temple? What you eat junk food, you take pharmaceuticals, you smoke??? Oh you're out. See me when you're ready to really give it all up. Hope you don't die first. Remember, Jesus loves you!
There is no security at all in what you're teaching the Bible teaches.
Love one another. Do you love people 100%? What if Jesus meant you're supposed to sell all and give it to the poor, have you done it? Jesus told someone he had to do it to be saved. So why doesn't this apply to you?
This is such a slippery slope.
Holding fast is believing you're a new creation in Christ. It's not trying to be one.
Last edited:
All truly converted trust Christ and his finished work. But it is of note that you skip by all the things that show your error and concentrate on this last part and show again your misunderstanding of the Gospel and unbelief.
To trust in this work, that is, to be granted by God faith in the finished work of Christ is to be truly converted and sealed unto the day of redemption.
Go fetch some church fathers, quote them throughout history that believe your error. I will await for you to find this.
My admonition is in rejection of your heresy, we are not to look to ourselves in assisting our salvation, we are to remember that our hope is only in Christ, something you miss and lack, yet something those truly converted have experienced. Thus the reminder to the saved to not be deceived by your error and fall from grace into works, bringing doubt upon their conversion.
These types of warning are only effectual in true believers, those who fall into your pit of works salvation haven't truly believed the Gospel.
To trust in this work, that is, to be granted by God faith in the finished work of Christ is to be truly converted and sealed unto the day of redemption.
Go fetch some church fathers, quote them throughout history that believe your error. I will await for you to find this.
My admonition is in rejection of your heresy, we are not to look to ourselves in assisting our salvation, we are to remember that our hope is only in Christ, something you miss and lack, yet something those truly converted have experienced. Thus the reminder to the saved to not be deceived by your error and fall from grace into works, bringing doubt upon their conversion.
These types of warning are only effectual in true believers, those who fall into your pit of works salvation haven't truly believed the Gospel.