Not By Works

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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Maybe I'll go look up all of the verses that give mention of him when I return home from working. I don't have a problem with someone thinking that "he repented himself" gives them hope that he was saved in the end. Even if I think that probably wasn't the case, I am okay with how they see it.
If they cannot tell the difference between saved and not saved, it seems a rather large issue to me, especially when they go about claiming to know what it takes, and acting as if they are superior in knowledge and understanding. Another issue at stake has already been mentioned, that of wishing to say one can lose their salvation. It seems to be an error that gives way to and/or supports the promotion of more significant errors. No error stands alone, for our beliefs form our world view :)
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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Those on the same side are known by their fruit. Jesus said that's how you would know them. They prove they are by:

By hatefully spouting malicious words on others.
By teaching false doctrine without scripture.
By twisting scripture by leaving out the context.
By lying.
By deceiving others.
By bearing false witness.
By twisting other's posts to accuse them.
By not arguing against each other's doctrine, being a respector of persons.
By refusing posted scripture with context, which is willful rebellion against God.
By picking pieces of text out of lexicons & posting as a whole, which is deception.
By refusing tried & true commentaries while posting unknown websites to justify themselves.
By saying they want to "discuss" the issues, then slamming the other person.
By calling people names because they can't overcome them.
By putting their "likes" on such wicked posts, thinking they are not partakers of their deeds.
By showing bad attitudes towards others.
By luring in unsuspecting members, agreeing temporarily with them, & then running them down as false teachers.
By acting like they're on the opposite side against you, arguing hatefully against you, & getting banned to prove your side right & righteous. That's hypocrisy.
By purposely scrutinizing others posts to find fault & error to attack their character & faith., & destroy them. The lawyers did this to Jesus.

You asked.

But this won't matter to you..... you'll just reject it all as some bad thing I'm doing.
I do not reject this. what I see is this- some people do not like how some things are phrased. for example, saying " stop running in the house" and " always walk in the house " mean the same thing, because they intend the same result.

just because some of us don't constantly yell " DON'T SIN!!! " does not mean that we think it sin does not matter. even if it perceived that way, that does not make it true.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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This whole discussion is based on a simple miss-understanding of life principles.

1. Behaviour is governed by emotional loyalties, cultural behaviour, moral outlooks
2. Guilt or desire for change is raised by failure within moral frameworks and expectations

If one claims God is not concerned with these issues, though all His pronouncements address
behaviour and guilt for failure, then claiming this freedom from following any principles or precepts
is saying behaviour does not matter.

As soon as you say, no behaviour does matter, then one accepts rules and principles, because to
say behaviour matters means one has accepted a way of measuring behaviour and classing it into
good behaviour and bad behaviour.

It is impossible, impossible, impossible to hold behaviour is not something God is concerned about and
then still say moral frameworks matter.

I have to rank this contradiction into the world of either people are toooooo stupid to understand what
they are talking about, or they are happy to contradict their own ideas, or they are so emotionally conflicted
rational discussion on this subject is impossible ( ie they are slightly mad )

So it is either
1. Stupid
2. Emotionally conflicted
3. Mad

In my most charitable moments I conclude option 2 is applicable.
And people caught here are like flat earthers, evidence is irrelevant because they reject anything
as the enemy which contradicts their own convictions. :)

Now I know mad people, who have solid convictions about lots of things that are just inventions
of their mind, so it is not an insult, but a reality one has to face.

How do you know when someone falls into this catagory?
They get very upset when you show them they are wrong, angry, insulted, annoyed, and desire to
attack and literally destroy you.

And choose almost any subject in life and you will find a scale where everyone falls on it, including
Mr Trump, lol. :)
a lot of wordly psycho babble in here for a supposedly heavenly minded person.

once again, we are back to square one- emotions and preceptions do NOT determine reality. facts do. really, strongly, emotionally , from the heart feeling something does NOT make it true if facts do not back it up.
 
May 12, 2017
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I read your point, and I showed why it did not help your reasoning,

you have evil evil doers who continue used to be evil doers be saved, then lost that salvation. or f you do not believe that, you agree with us, they were never saved to begin with

How is it that out of one side your mouths you say you cannot judge the heart or salvation and only God can, and out of the other side of your mouth, it is so easy for you all to claim when someone was not saved to begin with?
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
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I see how you are seeing it.
I don't know was he saved.
I always thought no, but I don't know exactly what went on between him and God in that moment of death. He killed himself over what he had done. That connotes sorrow unlike anything else. To end your own life for something you have done.

But I see how you are seeing it.

I think it can be overlooked with regard to Judas.. It is not implying anything except remorse... and that is important.

peace and Blessings Hun.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
So true,

Where one does not have the simple gospel correct, that we are saved by grace through faith and it is a gift, and that this is a singular event of justification by God so that salvation can never be lost, error does abound much more.

I guard my heart against those who preach another gospel as we are told to do.


No error stands alone,
Yes, I love this line:)


If they cannot tell the difference between saved and not saved, it seems a rather large issue to me, especially when they go about claiming to know what it takes, and acting as if they are superior in knowledge and understanding. Another issue at stake has already been mentioned, that of wishing to say one can lose their salvation. It seems to be an error that gives way to and/or supports the promotion of more significant errors. No error stands alone, for our beliefs form our world view :)
 

Desertsrose

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2016
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Ok, I see the confusion I caused in this....

What I meant was this...

If Jesus never knew you, it means you were not one with him and he was not one with you....I was trying to say that the word knew/know is about relationship with Jesus post salvation....and Rev 3.20 is all about relationship not about salvation....

He never knew them, because they were never in relationship with him....salvation is not relationship and if you think it is, then we have a problem....

If it is still clear as mud, let me know...I was pretty tired when I posted last night...
Hi Megiddo, Here's my struggle with what you're saying here. When a person is born again, born of the Spirit, he immediately enters into a relationship with the Father, with the Son and with the Holy Spirit.

We're a new creation, the old is past and the new has come. We'll never be the same again. The person's heart has been transformed from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh by God's Almighty hand.

All of the scriptures that speak of falling away, losing salvation etc are those who were never truly saved, they had a form of faith, but not a true faith.

When I struggled with all the scriptures that talk about falling away and compared them to all the scriptures that talk about assurance of salvation, I think the thing that helped me the most to see the balancing of them all was the parable about the sower.

four_heart_conditions_that_receive_the_word_of_god.jpg

There's only one good soil. But there's three bad soils. And either you have good soil or you don't. Like with the example with Judas. I believe he was the 3rd soil who had a divided heart. He was greedy and stole from the money bag. He loved the things of this world more than he loved Jesus. He was chosen, but he wasn't good soil.

I believe that Jesus gave us the parable about the soils so that we would see there's only one good soil and those are the ones who will persevere in the faith. Those are the true believers who will abide and fulfill all of the ifs. If you obey my commandments are those with the good soil. If you confess your sins are those with the good soil.

When I'm asked about osas I tell those asking that we can be assured of salvation and there are tests in the scriptures that help us to see if we're truly in the faith or not. Those who truly are born again will work out their salvation with fear and trembling, knowing that it is God who is at work for us to will and to do His good pleasure.

As James says, we need a faith that's alive and not dead. Those who say they have faith, James tells them that they'll have works otherwise their faith is dead.

So going back to the soil, we either have good soil or we don't. Those of us who love the Lord with all our heart, soul, mind and strength will do what we've been told to do and obey gladly and joyously because we see God at work within us to obey His commands which are not burdensome.

Wherever I see in the scriptures where they speak of those who don't continue in the faith and fall away, those are the ones who didn't have good soil and had 1 of the 3 bad soils.

This is the only way that I see that all of what's said on both sides of the issue fall into God's truth that He's conveyed to us. :)
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
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This is false teaching with no biblical proof.
Spiritual warfare is a big struggle for a christian to pray, believe, refusing temptation, rebuking the Devil, etc.
Obedience is faithful works..... not sitting on our backsides saying "I believe"

Here's the thing..... why wouldn't those that "scrutinize" others post for innaccuracies let such deliberate heresy slide right on by?

(Hint, hint) Because they're on the same side.

The Resurrection was part of the works of the cross... the power of GOD indeed.
 
Aug 15, 2009
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As I watch this thread, I think I see another member being staged for banning to make a group look good, & making another group look like a bunch of losers.

That's my opinion, & I'm entitled to it.

You don't have to believe it.

I'm not "prophesying" or anything.

Just watching.

Those "banned members" all do the same thing: become popular & believable, then out of nowhere go off on the other side, pulling out all the stops.

This happens over & over, like a cheap soap opera. ISIT was the last one before FranC, I recall.

Since they can't win their argument without evidence, they create a scapegoat to take the fall, only simulating a victory.

It's my guess that the banned members come back on under a new name & the charade starts all over again.

In the meantime, more false teachers join CC & help to poison the flock. They will act nice & polite, get rooted as a nice person, & then use that influence against those looking for salvation & the righteous.

This has been happening since Paul's departure in the world, but now we see it on the internet.


Acts 20
25“And now, behold, I know that all of you, among whom I went about preaching the kingdom, will no longer see my face. 26“Therefore, I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27“For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God. 28“Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.

A christian chat site is the perfect place to perform such evil, seeing that we don't have a single clue who anyone is, and nobody can really throw or keep the wicked out.

Since a chat site IS the perfect place, one can only assume that savage wolves are here.

Satan's not stupid to miss such an opportunity.



 
Feb 24, 2015
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a lot of wordly psycho babble in here for a supposedly heavenly minded person.

once again, we are back to square one- emotions and preceptions do NOT determine reality. facts do. really, strongly, emotionally , from the heart feeling something does NOT make it true if facts do not back it up.
My friend it is you who are projecting emotions, and then denying it.
Until you can admit emotions colour everything we do, they have control over all your
actions.

It is the same when people say, we do not have an accent, you do.
If you can understand this you have a chance to see what is really going on.
 
May 12, 2017
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Once again, address the point I was making. You can see Jesus was talking about a particular group of people who never knew him. He is not saying every single person whom he will turn away at the resurrection never knew him.
He cannot debate any truth past looking at the cross and holding affection in his heart for something not there anymore...

Many here refuse to grow up past the cross and saving grace....because that would require more than just mental belief...it would require actual death, sacrifice and laying themselves down....but since Jesus did all the hard stuff for them, it is much easier to stand open mouthed looking at the cross and holding affection in their hearts for something not there anymore...

Ever notice eternal security actually puts Jesus to death every time they open their mouths? and in some cases like Mr. Preacher4truth, and Mr. Truth talk they keep him on the cross all the time?

This is why they are still sinners saved by grace and not sin-forgiven saints,that will still sin, and have the resurrection power working inside of them....

The real ironic part to eternal security is the amount of work they do to convince themselves and others they are saved and really never enter rest, because eternal security creates an inner turmoil and lack of peace....because there is no expectation for overcoming or victory over their sinful condition now...

there is no time for any other truth or spiritual growth beyond sinner saved by grace....because they need to convince themselves and others they and they alone have it right....

not one of them ever answers hard questions abut what the life post salvation looks lie, spiritual growth, bearing fruit or anything else...beyond sinner saved by grace, eternal security and the saving grace which bought it for them....we have 32,000 pages here to prove this...

there is nothing else because anything else is all works based salvation or legalism.....tell them they also have to crucify themselves with Christ and be risen to newness of life and you are preaching sinless perfection....tell them they have authority over the devil in the name of Jesus and they tell you are acting in self-righteousness...tell them the Holy Spirit is a helper beyond being a .49 cent seal of approval and they call you a false teacher and the gifts and the ministry of the Holy Spirit is not for today...

They are blind to see an deaf to hear that the very grace they brag about can and will do much more in them adn through them, that just saving them....

It takes full faith and trust to allow yourself to die to the process....many in eternal security simply are not spiritually mature enough to allow themselves to die to the process...because that means giving total surrender for absolute control of your life....and then they start to see that eternal security is just blanket of security, and the walk is not about his faith, but your personal faith... because when total surrender allows for total control, there are expectations of you[not to obtain or maintain salvation] and that is where we count the cost....and where many are called, but few are sent....this is where the only easy day serving Jesus was yesterday becomes a reality...and where we stop looking at the cross and have walked out of the tomb and begin to understand its all about the harvest
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
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Is our Faith evident by us hearing and doing?


Is is it a one off moment of confession of Faith? Then sit back relax and enjoy the ride... all completed and given... is that working out our Salvation with fear and trembling?...


We believe.. unto the saving of our soul.. ongoing... do I not Trust GOD if I believe I was set free to serve Him in my newness?

The believing in the power of the cross.. is it not believing in GOD who is the power of the cross and Resurrection.. Our Gracious and Merciful GOD who made Christ the author of eternal salvation to all those that obey Him?

The Holy Spirit guides and comforts leading unto all Truth bringing to mind all He said to us?


He that Loveth me not Keep not my sayings.. it is written.

So friends, every work you heareth Him say do it... because you are being Faithful and love Him.


Then how can these spiteful people be of Him with such disregard for His sayings.. clutching a verse that supports their belief but blind to all else that may edify and teach them?

Spiritual blindness... The Pharisees of the Old Testament understood not but held to beliefs based on verses too having not the love of GOD in them..

Search the scriptures He said in them you think you have eternal life but they Testify of me.. a message much needed here.

Now attack.. accuse... mock and goad... if it was about me and not My Heavenly Father's Truth I would of gone long ago...


peace and love of GOD and the Messiah upon on you all.
 
May 12, 2017
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Hebrews 12:14 (NASB) - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. Those who are sanctified have been set apart/made holy.
Is this verse referring to positional or progressive ongoing sanctification or both?
 
May 12, 2017
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Your mistake wasn't slight, and there was no pouring over it to find the glaring flaw.

The fact you cannot accept correction and own your mistake is a commentary on you.

You quoted Gill among others as if what they said supported your false gospel of loss of salvation. None of them believe your teachings, and are in fact against them.

I called you on the fact that you were misusing them, in total ignorance. Gill is Reformed, believes in the biblical doctrine of perseverance of the saints (osas) and you quoted him as if he didn't.

Nothing he said was what you thought it said which isn't surprising.

You cannot accept that, you will not accept correction. If you think that is a tool of Satan, it just shows how prideful you are and how out of touch you are and that you will accuse people of anything, no holds barred for you, you go right ahead and say people are satanic merely because your errors are pointed out.

But go ahead, call others and myself these things, don't accept correction or man up. Be you; slander, cover up, bear false witness on others, preach your false gospel, pretend commentaries back you when they don't, then call names when you are exposed.
The humorous part to this joke of a post is the fact, you honesty think, you have spiritual authority to correct someone here......and then use liberal doses of testosterone and belittle a mans manhood and guilt trips to force compliance...


A man of TULIP Calvinism foolishness engaged us during a tent meeting being held on private property...he was a lot like you in deed and word......he then started getting belligerent like you about doctrine and damned me and my team to hell and his head exploded so bad he threatened to come back and burn down the tent...this was with a full tent full of people right before service...not any of us said a thing, just let the fool rant his stupid little head off.......we did not know it at the time, but an off duty county Sheriff Deputy was in the tent and attending the service and when the big bad Calvie wolf left the tent, the Deputy followed him outside and arrested that jack a lope right on the spot....The owner of the land was called and Mr. I have spiritual authority over you....was charged with trespassing and communicating a verbal threat....

That man and you both have a master alright....and the hand does not have a nail scar
 
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willybob

Guest
The word "justified" means to be declared righteous. Righteousness only comes by a "gift". This giving of the gift of righteousness which is Christ's alone is what brings salvation as in going to be with the Lord when we leave this body of flesh.

The finished work of Christ is that all sin has been taken away by Him and that all those that believe when they hear the message of Christ - are sealed with the Holy Spirit and they become new creations in Him and they are declared righteous because of Christ's work alone - not by what we do or don't do.

The finished work of Christ means that He alone has obtained eternal redemption for us. Heb. 9:12 - secured by His blood.

The righteous shall live by faith.

The proper understanding of His righteousness will also in this live bring the grace needed to walk out what already is in side us in the new creation in Christ.

Not being able to discern the "word of righteousness" will leave spiritual babies in our understanding.

Looks like it is time for "scripture" again in the area of righteousness. Why do people fight so much against the work of Christ and instead live by their own humanistic religious thoughts? Why don't we believe in Christ? Why are we continually denying Him and what He has done?

I can give what the scriptures say about righteousness and believers that are "in Christ" now. Everyone can believe what they want too
.

The understanding of the new creation in Christ and the new identity of the believer is paramount to living the true Christian life.


Here it says our spirit ( the inner person that is a new creation in Christ ) is alive because of righteousness that it is it.

Romans 8:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Here righteousness is a gift - you don't earn it.

Romans 5:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

We have grace reigning in our lives because of righteousness in us.

Romans 5:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21[/SUP] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Here righteousness comes by faith.

Romans 9:30 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Here when we believe - we are righteousness.

Romans 10:10 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

We are in the kingdom of God.

Romans 14:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17[/SUP] For the kingdom of God ( Jesus said that the kingdom of God is within you..He might know a thing or two ) is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Here it says that God made us righteousness in Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

This says we have become the righteousness of Christ ( this is called a dependent clause in the greek - it is determined as fulfilled because Christ became sin )

2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Believers are called righteousness.


2 Corinthians 6:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


Here it is saying that "righteousness comes by Christ".

Galatians 2:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Here we have the breastplate of righteousness - which is the armor of God that we are to be strong in.

Ephesians 6:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, andhaving on the breastplate of righteousness;

This talks about the new man in Christ - the new creation which has been created in righteousness and holiness.

Ephesians 4:24 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

Ok..that's enough..there are tons more....

righteousness comes by doing what is right through faith...Just as Daniel, Job, and Noah were delivered by their own righteousness (bible 101)



 
Feb 24, 2015
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ok, if we are going on with this thread..

Peter, what does these scriptures speak to you?


Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto lifeand godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

These are words of encouragement and communion with the Lord.
It is not more than this, for to have communion with God is a privilege given to us because of
the cross and Christs work, and our faith in Him.
 
May 12, 2017
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The Word is clear, we either submit to God's righteousness for our salvation or we do not...can't do both.

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

The word is also clear about what happens when we try and mix law and grace...

Revelation 3:16
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

We either trust in Jesus as our savior or we try and save ourselves. We either trust Jesus to keep us saved or we try and keep ourselves saved.

Forgetting the fact that we as humans can never, ever be 100% righteous in and of ourselves (the standard for Heaven) it is the height of arrogance to think that it is our our actions somehow determine if we "stay in God's grace" instead of His grace being the determining factor.

Is sin bad? Obviously. Can we ever hope to lead a sin free life?? I mean 100% sin free?? Go ahead and try and see how that works out for ya.
It is only by realizing both our true identity in Christ and having faith that we are who God says we are and not who we "feel" or "think" we are that we finally become free to follow the 2 commandments Jesus left us as His followers.
Then and only then are we able to switch from the toxic faith where we try and gain our self worth by attempting to reach goals set up by humans to a genuine faith where we can be confident in our self worth because God makes us worthy. Once this happens we can then begin to love God first and love our neighbor as we love ourselves.

God and God alone can enlighten a person who will not see, in the meantime we should genuinely pray for those still chained to religion that they to may have a spiritual awakening and come to know Jesus. I think it's important to remember that this is all for God's glory and not to prove one side over the other.
Shalom.


Hmmm...I am not sure Rev 316 is about confusing law and grace...especially since Jesus describes 3 conditions in that verse...

Hot, cold and Lukewarm...
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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Three bibles full and still no consensus.

The truth is already contained in this thread. But it is so long and silly now that any further posting makes everything gone before obsolete. Nobody will be reading page 972, and page 1246.

Stale and silly. And everyone contributing to this silliness cannot anymore see the wood for the trees.

Exactly who here is being edified? Nobody anymore.

It has become about pride. 100% about who is right and who is wrong.

Move on, because the Holy Spirit has done so over a 1000 pages ago.

:)