Does the Holy Spirit convict the born again believer of sin?

[dcontroversal]

If it were not all sin, then Christ's mission was only partially completed.
He took it all, not just some. You can't logically parlay that into different tenses based on our understanding of time.
Jesus cannot be recrucified to pay for future sin.

Exactly.......

 

[BillG]

I have not read all the posts in this thread but just going to give my simple thoughts.

Whether it is convict/convince/reprove.

Jesus said he had to go away so the Holy Spirit must come.
The reason being to convict the world of its sin which is unbelief in him.

That is the work of God to believe in Jesus.

Now I have the Holy Spirit in me.

Why?

To conform to the image of Jesus.

When I get it wrong he tells me so.
He doesn't condemn me. He reminds me of whom I am in Christ (although I don't fully get that) but he reminds of whom I want to be in Jesus and what I am called to be.

He is gentle and not harsh

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Of course I understand that, yet if God does something now, it is done now. If He did something then, it was done then. There are actions that God accomplishes that have finality. The crucifixion and it's purpose was completed once and once only for all. Your future sins are covered by that event.
Your point is that we have some say whether or not that event applies, by our continued repentance of sins you allege applies in the scripture.

you do not understand my point, which has become what I point out to a few, yourself included

maybe read the post I linked to

you may be just be siding with the easy gracers. I don't know you well enough to say that for sure, but no point in worrying something to death that you do not comprehend

do you not hear yourself saying if God does something now it is done now?

did Jesus die now? no He did not nor will He die again

I'm not sure you actually read what it is I disagreed with.

 

[Limey410v2]

you do not understand my point, which has become what I point out to a few, yourself included

maybe read the post I linked to

you may be just be siding with the easy gracers. I don't know you well enough to say that for sure, but no point in worrying something to death that you do not comprehend

do you not hear yourself saying if God does something now it is done now?

did Jesus die now? no He did not nor will He die again

I'm not sure you actually read what it is I disagreed with.

I am only a child of God, whatever label you wish to put on me does not conform with who God says I am. That is my only "side".

I think you actually agreed with me somewhat??.

My point was exactly that He died only once, a long time ago for the forgiveness of all sin. Your point was that He only died for all of our sin, up to the point of salvation.

 

[dcontroversal]

I am only a child of God, whatever label you wish to put on me does not conform with who God says I am. That is my only "side".

I think you actually agreed with me somewhat??.

My point was exactly that He died only once, a long time ago for the forgiveness of all sin. Your point was that He only died for all of our sin, up to the point of salvation.

I would not worry brother....those who devalue grace as they do, and then push what they do over what Jesus has done state clearly that their Jesus is weak, ineffectual and void of the glory that belongs unto him and him alone.......more coined phrases to coddle their false teaching.....no such thing as easy gracers......what a crying shame to throw the grace of God right back into his faith while saying the work of your Son is incomplete, will not work and his blood is not sufficient.....no wonder the number is plenteous that Jesus speaks about....

 

[preacher4truth]

I am only a child of God, whatever label you wish to put on me does not conform with who God says I am. That is my only "side".

I think you actually agreed with me somewhat??.

My point was exactly that He died only once, a long time ago for the forgiveness of all sin. Your point was that He only died for all of our sin, up to the point of salvation.

I get you. He died for all of our sins, which were all future as far as time is concerned. He also is now making intercession for us. He has perfected for ever those who are sanctified; Hebrews 10:14.

I'd hate to go through life in fear of wondering if I've confessed every single sin since conversion, because in the lose salvation economy I'd be on my way to a certain hell.

But that's not the Gospel, it's a false gospel that teaches the loss of salvation.

However, back to and concerning the OP and conviction of sin (as far as believers are concerned) in John 16:8 we see the word there "convince" or "convict". The context is toward the world.

Note in 2 Timothy 4:2 the Spirit of God, immutable in His dealings with man, uses the same method of convicting sin on believers through the preached Word. The same exact word is used here in dealing with professing believers as is in John 16:8; ἐλέγχω elegchō; to confute, admonish: - convict, convince, tell a fault, rebuke, reprove.

The ministry of the precious Holy Spirit is thus consistent in His dealings with sin. He convicts the world and the believer of sin in the same manner.

 

[FlSnookman7]

The Holy Spirit is the "action" part of the triune. It was The Holy Spirit moving upon the water in Gen 1:2 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
It was The Holy Spirit who lead Jesus into the wilderness in Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

The Holy Spirit provides the fruits Galatians 5:22-23 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

The Holy Spirit is both comforter and teacher John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Holy Spirit IS a convictor but not as we see it, indeed The Holy Spirit will convict the world of righteousness
John 16:8 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
He does convict the world of its sinful nature and of our need of a savior

The Holy Spirit gives power Acts 1:8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me[a] in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

There are so many more examples of The Holy Spirit doing things for us. After all The Holy Spirit is God.
Shalom.

 

[joaniemarie]

Sometimes we think some truths are new but in reality they are not. Here is someone back in the 1800's that had a supposedly "heretical" understanding of grace in the form of our sins being forgiven and those sins were continually being washed by the blood of Jesus.

I was reading about a hymn writer from the 1800's called Frances Ridley Havergal. She wrote many hymns and knew Latin, French, German, Greek and Hebrew.

She also knew by heart the 4 gospels, epistles and the book of Revelation by the time she was 23 years old - yet she still lived in total defeat.

She thought she had "great wickedness in her heart" - because of religious traditions taught to her which is what humanistic belief systems believe. They think Christians are a "new evolution" and thus they need to create and maintain their own self-righteousness.

It wasn't until she was reading in the Greek that the present tense was used for 1 John 1:7 "...His blood cleanseth us from all sin".

She realized all her sins were forgiven by the blood of Jesus and thus she believed it and experienced peace and joy in her life because of this truth and lived a holier life.

Here is a direct QUOTE:

" Have we not been limiting 1 John 1:7 , by practically making it refer only to "remission of sins that are past" instead of taking the grand simplicity of "cleanseth from all sin"?

"All" is all; and as we may trust Him to cleanse us from the stain of past sins so we may trust Him to cleanse us from all present defilement; yes, all!

By refusing to take 1 John 1:7 in it's fullness, we will lose the fullness of it's application and power in our lives. It goes on cleansing , and I have no words to tell how my heart rejoices in it."

UNQUOTE:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=zO_...%22%3F&f=false

She got the revelation that all her sins were forgiven because she was in Christ and thus always in the Light and His blood continually cleansed her. She was able to walk free in Christ from that point on. Today she would be called a heretic and being in error by some for having this belief.

Believing the true gospel of the grace of God in Christ finished work on the cross and resurrection will change us as we grow in His grace. We grow in His grace by the "hearing of Christ Himself".

Here is a book for those interested in her life: Jennie Chappell, "Women Who Have Worked and Won: the life story of Mrs. Spurgeon, Mrs. Booth-Tucker, F.R. Havergal, and Ramabai," London: S.W. Partridge & Co. Ltd. 1904

Amen. I love hearing the testimonies of the saints. Especially people like Frances R.H. who were child prodigies., who didn't use their reasoning power to become humanly worldly wise. But instead keep searching out the truth from the leading and teaching of the Holy Spirit. Most geniuses come to a place of hopelessness and end up being suicidal. Many die before their time. This testimony of how Frances H. came to see 1 John 1:9 is a major encouragement and a testimony to the power of the blood of Christ to cleanse us from allllll sin. Her hymns are well known to us old believers.

 

[preacher4truth]

that it is a very sad and misguided thing to think of Him as a convictor only. After all The Holy Spirit is God.Shalom.

I don't think anyone here is doing that bro. Where are you coming up with the idea this is what is going on?

 

[FlSnookman7]

I don't think anyone here is doing that bro. Where are you coming up with the idea this is what is going on?

Edited post. Thank you.

 

[Limey410v2]

I get you. He died for all of our sins, which were all future as far as time is concerned. He also is now making intercession for us. He has perfected for ever those who are sanctified; Hebrews 10:14.

I'd hate to go through life in fear of wondering if I've confessed every single sin since conversion, because in the lose salvation economy I'd be on my way to a certain hell.

But that's not the Gospel, it's a false gospel that teaches the loss of salvation.

However, back to and concerning the OP and conviction of sin (as far as believers are concerned) in John 16:8 we see the word there "convince" or "convict". The context is toward the world.

Note in 2 Timothy 4:2 the Spirit of God, immutable in His dealings with man, uses the same method of convicting sin on believers through the preached Word. The same exact word is used here in dealing with professing believers as is in John 16:8; ἐλέγχω elegchō; to confute, admonish: - convict, convince, tell a fault, rebuke, reprove.

The ministry of the precious Holy Spirit is thus consistent in His dealings with sin. He convicts the world and the believer of sin in the same manner.

I agree, maybe just a little differently. I believe that as we walk with the Holy Spirit, we look to Him for guidance, for help, for our understanding of the life in which we now live with Him.

With Him doing a work within and through us.

Sin will not cause the Holy Spirit to leave us, because Christ defeated sin, and it no longer has any power over us. As far as God is concerned he no longer looks at us as sinners.

God's only concern is are we a forgiven sinner that is alive with Him, or are we a forgiven sinner that is dead. Forgiveness doesn't change, but Salvation is for only us, those that believe on what was accomplished.

Being alive in Christ is what He wants for us.

Those that refuse the Holy Spirit (or reject it, or deny it, or whatever) are dead.

Those that embrace what Jesus did on the cross, and accept the free gift of salvation through our resurrection by the Holy Spirit, are now made alive.

Circling back, I believe that God shows us our sinful nature (conviction of the world), that we were born into, so that we will understand our depravity, and our need for a Savior, then look to Him for the solution.

I may have gone a little off topic.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I am only a child of God, whatever label you wish to put on me does not conform with who God says I am. That is my only "side".

I think you actually agreed with me somewhat??.

My point was exactly that He died only once, a long time ago for the forgiveness of all sin. Your point was that He only died for all of our sin, up to the point of salvation.

this is false

I put no label on you. I said I do not know if you agree with the easy gracers or not.

I don't agree with you if you are saying that walking in the light is a position. it is an active and ONGOING pursuit as John and others state

I never said Jesus died up to the point of someone's salvation

understand me and I mean this: I DID NOT SAY WHAT YOU ARE SAYING I SAID

now kindly stick to what I state and do not add or even subtract from it and then try to make a case against what I said

that goes on constantly in these forums and is the reason for at least half of the arguments

my position is that walking in the light is an active pursuit

I do not agree with walking in the light as a position. scripture does not teach this

 

[joaniemarie]

I think that there is some confusion here regarding the meaning of convict.

1 usage means to find guilty. I agree that is not applicable to believers.

the other usage means to convince or persuade. from this usage we get the word convictions.

Our conscience, as believers, does indeed trouble us when we are out of God's will. If it does not; then you should reexamine your walk with the Lord.

This reminds me of Hebrews.10:22 because our conscience is not always a good measuring stick for truth. It also needs to be renewed. An evil conscience is not always as if someone isn't using else it would help them. Sometimes an evil conscience is one that is not acting in line with the truth and is under guilt and condemnation of the enemy.


I LOVE how the word of God comes to our minds at times when we need it because we have had it hidden in our hearts. We soooo NEEEED the Holy Spirit and the Bible to bring us into the truth. We can't have one without the other.


[SUP]22 [/SUP]let us draw near with a true heart in [SUP][a][/SUP]fulness of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil [SUP][b][/SUP]conscience: and having our body washed with pure water,


[SUP]22 [/SUP]Let us all come forward and draw near with true (honest and sincere) hearts in unqualified assurance and absolute conviction engendered by faith (by [SUP][a][/SUP]that leaning of the entire human personality on God in absolute trust and confidence in His power, wisdom, and goodness), having our hearts sprinkled and purified from a guilty (evil) conscience and our bodies cleansed with pure water.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]So let us seize and hold fast and retain without wavering the [SUP][a][/SUP]hope we cherish and confess and our acknowledgement of it, for He Who promised is reliable (sure) and faithful to His word.

 

[Limey410v2]

this is false

I put no label on you. I said I do not know if you agree with the easy gracers or not.

I don't agree with you if you are saying that walking in the light is a position. it is an active and ONGOING pursuit as John and others state

I never said Jesus died up to the point of someone's salvation

understand me and I mean this: I DID NOT SAY WHAT YOU ARE SAYING I SAID

now kindly stick to what I state and do not add or even subtract from it and then try to make a case against what I said

that goes on constantly in these forums and is the reason for at least half of the arguments

my position is that walking in the light is an active pursuit

I do not agree with walking in the light as a position. scripture does not teach this

You are correct, I misread your post. I apologize. However you did say this.

well, frankly I am equally baffled as to how someone interprets all sin as FUTURE sin

if you are not yet born and Jesus tarries (as they say in some circles) then your future sin is forgiven if you accept Him as your Savior.

all sin means the sin of all people, not every sin they ever committed or will commit

Which is confusing.

If He forgives all sin, how does that not include every sin?

 

[dcontroversal]

Believing in Jesus and confession of said belief = eternal salvation, justification, sanctification positionally, and sealed by the Holy Spirit eternally unto the day of redemption. <---BORN of the SPIRIT, BORN of INCORRUPTABLE SEED

WALKING in the LIGHT as HE IS IN THE LIGHT = FELLOWSHIP between believers and GOD.....FELLOWSHIP is NOT SONSHIP and FELLOWSHIP--->it is positional!

 

[preacher4truth]

Edited post. Thank you.

Well, my apologies bro.

Was a good reminder though, I'll give you that!

 

[joaniemarie]

When the apostle John was writing to his spiritual children, he also knew what Christ had already done for him and for them in His death burial and resurrection. They were already children of God. But he also made it clearly that children of God were not sinlessly perfect and sin in the believer's life blocks fellowship with God.

The "flesh" (the old Adamic sin nature) is not automatically eradicated when we are born again (even though that is what we all would love to see). There is a constant battle between the flesh and the Spirit, and therefore we are to mortify the flesh and to walk in the Spirit. But saints can and will sin (knowingly or unknowingly) and therefore they MUST deal with sin properly to maintain fellowship with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Indeed we are commanded to "dis-fellowship" other believers who persist in their sins.

So the issue is not sonship but fellowship. That is why John warns Christians not not deceive themselves, or to make God a liar by claiming that they have no sin to deal with. While you have admitted that you can sin, you have also said "I have not asked for forgiveness "in order to be forgiven or to supposedly restore fellowship" for quite some time", which means you have not really believed the first epistle of John.Then there are those who fool themselves by claiming that that epistle was not really written to believers!

Yes, I understand what you are saying. But there is something else here. Back in the day, our church kept pointing us to Psalm 51:10-11 and we sang it often. (i can remember it to this day and the tune is cemented in my mind) Create in me a clean heart oh God.., let me be like you in all my ways.... give me your strength teach me your song...

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right, persevering, and steadfast spirit within me.




[SUP]11 [/SUP]Cast me not away from Your presence and take not Your Holy Spirit from me.



Although David was a man after God's own heart., the apple of God's eye... David didn't have the Holy Spirit sealed in him like we do. David had it much harder than us imo. He had to maintain his works and although David was anointed and had the Holy Spirit at times and was used of God and even wrote much of the Bible through the Holy Spirit., David feared the Holy Spirit being taken from Him.

But not us. We can grieve the Holy Spirit but He will not leave us or forsake us. And our hearts are new and clean. We have been given a new heart and have to learn how to make a new sound with our minds from the use of it. Much like a bell when it bongs.

The old man with his ways is dead and gone. he can no longer control us unless we listen to the old bongings in our head coming from the memory of when the that old bell rang insistently as our only means of thinking and reasoning.

It's now our responsibility to use what Christ has given us. To work out what Christ has worked in us. We have a clean heart., now we learn about it from the Bible and the Holy Spirit. We have a sound mind., now we learn about it from the Bible and the Holy Spirit. And many other things we need to "work out".


But we will never be unheard. God always hears us. Another teaching is "if we have iniquity in our hearts... the Lord will not hear us"... Well. That is no longer true for the believer under the new covenant. Think about it. There is a wealth of learning for us believers that always leads to the love and grace and mercy of God in Christ. We have to learn about the promises and begin to walk in them and in that we will have victory because we are more than conquerors through Christ who loved us.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

You are correct, I misread your post. I apologize. However you did say this.




Which is confusing.

If He forgives all sin, how does that not include every sin?

no problem re the misunderstanding. I just get tired when people keep going with the wrong idea

you are not understanding what my point is

yes, ALL sin is forgiven UNLIKE the OT system of sacrifice

I refer you to what John said with regards to God being faithful when we confess our sin..He forgives our sin

if we need to confess our sin, then is it correct to state we do not need to do that because all sin is forgiven?

the Bible does not contradict itself...people misapply or do not take council from the entire book

feel free to keep asking about what I am saying. questions are fair.

I may be off awhile or perhaps not back on until tomorrow so if that plays out, I'll get back to you then

 

[joaniemarie]

do you some of you posters from the 'not by works' thread realize AND understand this is part of the argument (I would like to say discussion but let's be real) that is ongoing in the minds of hyper gracers with whom you agree so handily in the aforementioned thread?

this is part of the problem for lack of a determined end to the ongoing endless ping pong match of personalities and character traits, because, IMO, that thread is more about that, than any sort of truth from scripture

if someone thinks they have all sin forgiven, if someone believes they do not need to confess their sins, if someone thinks John is an old man with first stage Alzheimer's, that is what is directing their posting in that thread as well

I think of things like that and it would serve some well to do the same because it is not biblical to think sin has been dealt with and off you go then...play in the sandbox

Hi 7seas., This is not a personality ping pong match. This is discussion that we need to have as believers as we delve into the Bible more and more and are challenged in what we know about Jesus and what the power of His resurrection means to and for us. What Jesus has provided for us and given freely to us.

We should be learning more about Jesus than what we first heard and learned.... We should know more than we did yesterday and the day before. What is actually happening to the believer when they are learning more and more about the full salvation that Jesus paid for.,is we are free to open the door to the promises He has already given. And yes, they are amazing and many. And it seems too good to be true! But it's true PRAISE THE NAME OF JESUS!!! When we start seeing Jesus clearer and clearer the Holy Spirit is flowing those rivers of living water in and through us just like Jesus said in John 7;38-39

[SUP]38 [/SUP]He who believes in Me [who cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Me] as the Scripture has said, From his innermost being shall flow [continuously] springs and rivers of living water.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]But He was speaking here of the Spirit, Whom those who believed (trusted, had faith) in Him were afterward to receive. For the [Holy] Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified (raised to honor).



He has cleared the way. We have learned that without Jesus we are without hope to think properly. We will be subject to the evils along the path of our lives if we don't stay close and keep following the Good Shepherd. He is walking us through., and although we see things to the left and to the right of us as well as behind us in our memories., our goal is to keep looking to Jesus., the Author and Finisher of our faith.

Yes., it's an amazing stunning journey of freedom and grace. All we have comes freely by grace through faith. We are blessed with wells we didn't dig and homes we didn't build. This is not due to our earning the blessings but due to our gracious loving Savior.

 

[Limey410v2]

no problem re the misunderstanding. I just get tired when people keep going with the wrong idea

you are not understanding what my point is

yes, ALL sin is forgiven UNLIKE the OT system of sacrifice

I refer you to what John said with regards to God being faithful when we confess our sin..He forgives our sin

if we need to confess our sin, then is it correct to state we do not need to do that because all sin is forgiven?

the Bible does not contradict itself...people misapply or do not take council from the entire book

feel free to keep asking about what I am saying. questions are fair.

I may be off awhile or perhaps not back on until tomorrow so if that plays out, I'll get back to you then

The bible does not contradict itself, that is correct.

So then we must either reevaluate what the scriptures say about forgiveness, or reevaluate what John says about confession.

I will give you a perfect example of how things can be looked at differently

Colosions 3:13

"Bear with each other and forgive one another, as the lord forgave you

Mathew 6:14-15
14 For if you forgive others when they sin against you, your heavenly father will also forgive you 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your father will not forgive your sins.

So which one is it? One says forgive as you are forgiven, the other says, you must forgive, or you will not be forgiven.

So do I just choose which one fits me best? I can, one is under the Law and is determined by my actions, one is under grace, which is determined by His actions. I choose Grace. I can't live in both.

You see Jesus was teaching the Jews under the Old Covenant, he was teaching the Law, which is the perfect tutor to lead us to Him,where you had to release your neighbour from their sin against you, before you could go to the altar to be forgiven.

Paul is teaching under the New Covenant, which states, you ARE already forgiven, so out of that abundance, forgive others.

They don't contradict each other, they explain each other. Old to New

So anyway back to my original point.

If we are truly and fully forgiven, and we embrace that forgiveness and walk in the newness of it, then asking for forgiveness is a rejection of what Christ accomplished on the cross.
It's like saying, " I believe in what you did, but...just in-case you left one behind, please forgive that one."

So we must look at 1 John 1:9 under the light of our full forgiveness and cleanliness and righteousness given to us by God.