It's a Buy or Sell Mark It

[oldhermit]

And you certainly won't read anything in scripture that mentions technology, michrochips or barcodes. You have to be smart enough to take into consideration that John is seeing visions 2000 from his time-frame and he has absolutely nothing to compare to what he is seeing, because even the simplest technology did not exist. Therefore, when he says "Mark" which is from the word "Charagma," you have to put yourself into John's time frame. John can't say, "He causes all both great and small, rich and poor, free and slave to have an RFID chip implanted in the right hand or the forehead and except anyone had the chip implant they wouldn't be able to electronically credit and debit their bank accounts." Is that what you expect John to have written in Revelation oldhermit?

What you are doing is elevating human reason and imagination over and above the language of scripture. We are never allowed to assign meaning to revealed symbols. Only God can assign meaning to revealed symbols.

And therein lies your problem. Who told you that these events were fulfilled in the past? These events, the gathering of the church, the seven year agreement established with Israel followed by the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, the setting up of the abomination, the beasts authority during the last 3 1/2 years, these are all events that lead up to the return of Christ to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

You have no idea what the 3 1/2 years represents. All of this can be measured by the reality of historical event. You have nothing to measure futuristic interpretation against. Every generation of mellinnialists have pointed to something in its time that they were convinced was the fulfillment of Revelation or parts thereof only to be proven wrong. It will be that same with the next generation of mellinnialists and you are no different. This in what happens when men refuse to allow scripture to define its own use of symbols.

And the approach above is a major on-going error. The book of Revelation should be read in the literal sense unless a symbolic, figurative or metaphoric interpretation is obvious. This is exactly why you ignore the reference to a thousand years as being literal and instead look for some other meaning, when the words mean exactly what they say, "a thousand years."

And your error is applying the meaning of symbols found in other scriptures and assigning them to those in Revelation. For example, when we read the words "a thousand years" in Rev.20 there is nothing in the context that would lead the read to go to Psalm 50:10 and apply the meaning from that scripture. Instead of believing that the context is referring to a literal thousand years, you ignore it and because of a preexisting teaching you apply a meaning from some other scripture that is not even related, having no bearing on Revelation whatsoever.

No, I don't go outside the book of Revelation because it is a self-contained book. The book of Daniel is a sister book to Revelation and there are scriptures that refer to a few of the same end-time events that are referred to in Revelation, but I don't need that other information to know what Revelation is saying.

Why on earth would you believe it to be a self-contained book when ALL of its symbolism is taken from some other text of scripture. This is pure nonsense. These symbols are not new.

I can assure you that I am not repeating anyone. I do my own personal studies and I don't and have never taken anyone's word for anything. Until I have learned a truth from scripture for myself, I don't teach it. I can't help it if others have come to the same conclusions that I have. I parrot nothing. My teachings are my teachings.

Of course you are repeating other mellinalists. You all sound the same. It is like you are all reading the same book. Incidentally, I still have those same books. O have them from several generations of mellinnial theorists and they all sound just like the ones who went before them, just like you.


There is no doubt that there is symbolism in revelation. As I stated earlier, the book of Revelation should be read in the literal sense unless a symbolic interpretation is obvious. The true error is applying symbolism where none is required. The meanings of most of the symbols in Revelation are revealed right in the same book.

Symbol = literal

Symbolism:
A woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars:

Sun = Jacob
Moon = Wife/wives
Twelve stars = the tribes of Israel (Gen.37:9-10)

The woman = the nation Israel

Symbolism:
An enormous read dragon with seven heads and ten horns

The seven heads you saw are seven hills upon which the woman sits (the woman's headquarters)

The seven heads also symbolic representing seven kings

Seven heads = seven hills and seven kings

The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.

Ten horns = Ten kings

Seven stars = Seven messengers

Seven Lampstands = Seven churches

Double-edged sword = spoken word of God

I saw a star fall from heaven who was given the key to the Abyss

Dragon = Satan

Stars = Satan's angels

And on an on it goes. There is nothing difficult in interpreting the symbols within Revelation when it is read at face value.

It is when symbolism is applied to what is meant to be literal that the errors occur and God's word is distorted.

Symbols and symbolism are not different things. Symbolism is the practice of representing things by symbols. A symbol merely stands as a representation of something that is beyond itself. This is the nature of all symbols. A symbol always represents the reality but it is itself not the reality. The symbol is never literal, it is NEVER the reality of what it represents. Jesus is the one who is the one who engages in the practice of symbolism and symbolism is merely the practice of representing things by symbols. All of the images in Revelation are presented as symbols.

In regards to "fantastic futuristic interpretations" I would have to say that the burden of proof is on you!

LOL. why would it be on me? I am not the one who is making these fantastic claims toward a future that can neither prove nor measured. The burden of proof is on you.

We have scripture stating that the false prophet will cause all people to receive a mark in/on the right hand or forehead and we currently have people being implanted with chips under the skin of the hand. That's a match! The scripture goes on to say that no one will be able to buy or sell except the one who has this mark.

Sounds just like the realities of first century.

We have been watching the on-going process of the world moving towards a cashless society and the increase of the use of electronic crediting and debiting in order to phase out paper money, so that all financial transactions will be done electronically. That's a match!

We are going to be seeing more and more people beginning to start making purchases and eventually performing all financial transactions with a scan of their hand. The question is, at what point will you realize that you were wrong in your beliefs and teachings on these issues and end-time events in general?

No, there is no match there. All you are doing is starting with current events and trying to somehow map that onto a reading of the text. This is the same thing mellinnialist of all generations have done. They were wrong then and you are wrong now and history will bear me out.

Look, like I said before. It is completely pointless for you and I to have this discussion because there is no common ground of consensus upon which to build. We should at least show some mutual courtesy and simply not respond to one another's posts on this matter. I had intended not to responded to your thread Where Does Jesus Speak about the Millennium (Continued) I was going to give you the courtesy of not interrupting your thread but when I saw that it was directed to me I felt obligated to respond. I think from now on, we should extend this courtesy to one another on this topic.

 

[garee]

oldhermit,

"so that no one could buy or sellunless he had the mark"

In perspective, Buying and selling is electronic crediting and debiting. The world has been and is currently running on an electronic crediting and debiting system. The devices that are used in performing this function such as, carding swiping, cell phone bank apps, etc. have continued to evolve.

Regarding this, for the last couple of years, Sweden has been implanting employees with RFID chips under the skin of the hand, one of its purposes being to make purchases, which is the next step in this evolution of devices that will eventually evolve into the mark in preparation for that coming antichrist/beast.

Now we recently have a company here in Wisconsin who is also offering their employees RFID chip implants for security access and also for making purchases in the company café. This technology of implanting for sake of making purchases will make its way (if it already hasn't) into the Expos and seminars and will begin to spread like wild fire throughout all businesses. The next thing that you are going to see are people paying for services and products by the scanning of their hands.

Most likely the RFID implant will evolve into something more applicable, but what will remain consistent is that whatever the device/mark ends up being, it will go in/on the hand or the forehead.

The fact that this technology even exists is a testimony to the truth and accuracy of God's word. And it should be a proof to preterists and amillennialist that end-time events, including the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are literal, future events and should not be deemed as past events nor are they to be historicized.

The buying and selling has to do with spiritual unseen truth hid in the parables. We do not know Christ after the temporal things seen of this world. We do not sell out the gospel for the things of this world .

The gospel is not about the political kingdoms of this world.

Pro 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.


666 is simply the number God has assigned to unconverted man used in parables through the scripture. The mark of the restless wanderer Cain (666) His brother's blood Able as a member of the bride of Christ calls out from the dust. .

If any man has not the Spirit of Christ they simply do not belong to our Husband, Christ. One bride, one gospel, one faith .The faith of God. .

Not a gospel for the flesh of Jewish sinners and another for sinning Gentiles .

 

[oldhermit]

Ok, then you seem to have it narrowed down to one group worships Jesus the messiah and the other group does not. So then there are the two groups,the Jews who denied that Jesus was the messiah and all of pagan Rome.

Pagan Rome I will leave alone for the moment and address only the Jews who did not worship Jesus as the messiah and were involved in the revolt from ad66-70.

As we all know they did not see that Jesus was the messiah and so then they would have had the mark of the beast based on what you said. So, if they ask Jesus if they were suppose to pay tribute to Caesar as you pointed out would have been based on whether or not they were still under the authority of the gentile rule set forth in Daniel or if it was completely fulfilled at that time. I say that because the scripture state's to see those in authority over them as "ordained by God"(Romans 1:1) so if this was not the case and the times of the gentile rule set fourth in Daniel(70 weeks) were not yet fulfilled then it would be proper to still acknowledge the authority over them as ordained by God until their allocated time was fulfilled from Daniel. On the other hand as to if they were to pay tribute to Caesar would not be no longer proper if at that time the complete 70 weeks had been fulfilled.

From Josephus we see that instead the Jews(who did not see Jesus as the messiah), between the years of ad66-70+ did not acknowledge Caesar as God nor ordained by God as Romans 1;1 states the Christians believed but instead revolted/rebelled against their authority as to whether Rome or Caesar was god or ordained by God Between ad66-70 and based on the scripture you provided it seems they were questioning their authority long before ad66.

I would find it hard pressed to have it found that a group of peoples who set off the thinking that Rome who they saw as the fourth beast from Daniel should be worshiped as God when they were of the mind that they were under it's authority. The historical fact that Josephus recorded the that they revolted/rebelled(Jewish wars) should suffice to the needed proof that the Jews who were involved in the revolt of ad66-70 did not worship Caesar as God nor did they use his coins/money to buy and sell.

The question is whether Israel's rebellion against Rome overturns their charges of God against them of worshiping the beast.
Here is what God had to say to Jerusalem in Ezek 16.

35Therefore, O harlot, hear the word of the LORD. 36Thus says the Lord GOD, “Because your lewdness was poured out and your nakedness uncovered through your harlotries with your lovers and with all your detestable idols, and because of the blood of your sons which you gave to idols, 37therefore, behold, I will gather all your lovers with whom you took pleasure, even all those whom you loved and all those whom you hated. So I will gather them against you from every direction and expose your nakedness to them that they may see all your nakedness. 38“Thus I will judge you like women who commit adultery or shed blood are judged; and I will bring on you the blood of wrath and jealousy. 39“I will also give you into the hands of your lovers, and they will tear down your shrines, demolish your high places, strip you of your clothing, take away your jewels, and will leave you naked and bare. 40“They will incite a crowd against you and they will stone you and cut you to pieces with their swords. 41“They will burn your houses with fire and execute judgments on you in the sight of many women. Then I will stop you from playing the harlot, and you will also no longer pay your lovers. 42“So I will calm My fury against you and My jealousy will depart from you, and I will be pacified and angry no more. 43“Because you have not remembered the days of your youth but have enraged Me by all these things, behold, I in turn will bring your conduct down on your own head,” declares the Lord GOD, “so that you will not commit this lewdness on top of all your other abominations.

This is the same judgment that awaited Jerusalem in AD 70. Just because Jerusalem hated Rome did not mean that God's charge against them was invalid. Jerusalem may have hated Rome but the made their choice between Rome and Jesus. "So they cried out, 'Away with Him, away with Him, crucify Him!' Pilate said to them, 'Shall I crucify your King?' The chief priests answered, 'We have no king but Caesar.' John 19:15.

 

[Jackson123]

I believe the great tribulation is when the antichrist in power, not 70AD.

in 1 john 2, john talk to Christian that antichrist went out from us, us mean Christian but not one of us, mean pretend to be Christian.

Titus Arch who destroy the temple was neither pretend to be Christian or Jew.

so 70 AD was not great tribulation like Bible say.

I do not believe in great tribulation antichrist destroy temple, from what I understand, in great tribulation, antichrist reign from the temple, not destroy the temple.



1 john 2
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

[Ahwatukee]

What you are doing is elevating human reason and imagination over and above the language of scripture. We are never allowed to assign meaning to revealed symbols. Only God can assign meaning to revealed symbols.

I am simply using the brain that God gave me to understand his hidden truths. Your error is the misapplication of scripture so that instead of believing what your reading, you have to find relevance somewhere else. And below is a good example:

You have no idea what the 3 1/2 years represents

I know exactly what 3 1/2 years means, which is exactly what it says, 3 1/2 years. This is derived from Dan.9:27, which is that last seven year period and which is divided into two 3 1/2 year periods, with the setting up of the abomination marking the middle of the seven. Revelation covers to those two 3 1/2 periods in the following manner:

* The two witnesses prophecy for 1260 days, which in 30 day increments is 3 1/2 years

* The woman cared for out in the wilderness for 1260 days or a time, times and a half a time (3 1/2 years)

* The beast is given authority over the great tribulation saints for 42 months, which is 3 1/2 years

Once the church has been completed, the Lord will descend and gather His church, just as He promised in John14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-18. Following that will be the revealing of "the ruler" that antichrist, who will establish a seven year agreement with Israel, which will initiate that last seven years of the seventy sevens that was decree upon Israel and Jerusalem.

After the church is gone, God is going to pick up right where He left off with Israel, complete with a temple, sacrifices and offerings. During that time, He will also be pouring out His wrath upon a Christ rejecting world via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which are literal judgments the likes of which the world has never seen.

[quoted]Why on earth would you believe it to be a self-contained book when ALL of its symbolism is taken from some other text of scripture. This is pure nonsense. These symbols are not new.[/quote]

My understanding of scripture comes from reading the word of God in the literal sense and applying symbolism were it is required and not because of some rigid standard of false hermeneutics which you apply. I cross-reference and compare scripture, looking a the major translations and the interlinear, as well as the study of Hebrew and Greek words. The Spirit is my teacher, revealing things yet to come just as Jesus said He would and confirming these truths with my spirit.

And speaking of the Spirit, you said that you used to believe as I believe, which tells me that you were not taught by the Spirit. For the Spirit does not teach us scriptural truths and then change their meaning later.

You obviously don't understand what the word "Apokalupsis" translated "Revelation" means. It is the unveiling of things previously hidden. a disclosure of truth, instruction, concerning divine things before unknown.

Of course you are repeating other mellinalists. You all sound the same.

As I said, I can't help it if others have come to the same conclusion based on scripture. The Spirit revealed it to them just as He has revealed these truths to me and others on this Forum.

Symbols and symbolism are not different things. Symbolism is the practice of representing things by symbols. A symbol merely stands as a representation of something that is beyond itself. This is the nature of all symbols. A symbol always represents the reality but it is itself not the reality. The symbol is never literal, it is NEVER the reality of what it represents. Jesus is the one who is the one who engages in the practice of symbolism and symbolism is merely the practice of representing things by symbols. All of the images in Revelation are presented as symbols.

Symbolism, symbols, figures of speech, Metaphors, they all point to a literal meaning. Not all things in Revelation are presented as symbols. As I said, this is the crux of your error. Once you approach Revelation in this manner, all of your conclusions will be wrong and which they are.

In regards to "fantastic futuristic interpretations" I would have to say that the burden of proof is on you! LOL. why would it be on me? I am not the one who is making these fantastic claims toward a future that can neither prove nor measured. The burden of proof is on you.

I said that the burden of proof is on you, because the things that are written regarding the mark are taking place before your very eyes, but you refuse to acknowledge them for the sake of your belief. Scripture states that a mark will go in/on the hand or the forehead, which will be used for buying and selling and we currently have people being implanted under the skin of the hand with RFID chips, one of its purposes being to make purchases (buying), ergo, the burden of proof is on you, because what scripture says is happening and I can identify it.

As we continue to go into the future, you will see more and more people begin to make purchases with the scan of their hand, which will continue to evolve leading up to the reign of the antichrist/beast.

No, there is no match there.

Spoken like a true preterist! No match, huh? We have a 1900 year old prophecy proclaiming that the coming false prophet will cause all people to receive a mark in the right hand or forehead. And through technology we now have people being implanted with chips under the skin of the hand, one of its purposes being to make purchases and you don't see a match here? Are completely blind and unable to discern the times?

Look, like I said before. It is completely pointless for you and I to have this discussion because there is no common ground of consensus upon which to build. We should at least show some mutual courtesy and simply not respond to one another's posts on this matter

Because I am zealous for the truth and accuracy of God's word and you are teaching lies and false teachings and thereby leading people astray.

Just as the scripture warns that there will be false teachers among us, you and others have abandoned the truth and turned aside to myths.

You don't believe what I am saying now, but soon it will be undeniable.

 

[oldhermit]

Well, I shall extend that courtesy to you even if you will not extend it to me.

 

[Locutus]

As I said to you before I am outside the camps and am merely following along with an ongoing debate among the different groups discussing their positions on the matter. At times I wonder why one would say certain things and when you used Hebrews 12:22 and Rev.16:19 as parallel to one another. Why is because of the tenses they are written in verses the date the two different books were written. In Hebrews 12;22 in the statement it says "but you HAVE COME..." and so it is a present tense reality at the time it is written as if it is already fulfilled. In Revelation 16:19 he saw the city divided into three parts so if it is parallel to Hebrews 12:22 it would have been divided into three parts before the book of Hebrews was written.

Well, if I'm understanding you correctly about this "paralleling", I think you aren't quite following what I'm saying.

I said that John's revelation is a tale of two cities - the heavenly Jerusalem which was in existence when Hebrews was written and the earthly/physical Jerusalem and its temple which was also in existence when Hebrews was written.

It's some time later that John in his vision sees the earthly/physical city divided into three parts, their existence was "parallel" so I don't understand what your issue is with this.

Heb 8:4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law.

From the above we know that the physical temple/city was still active when Hebrews was written.

And based on my previous "arguments" why would the city in Rev 16:19 be any other than the 1st century AD Jerusalem?

 

[Bladerunner]

Very simple, you die.

"Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." Rev 20:4[/QUOTE


There you go,right on....the Souls of the tribulatons saints and those believers (gentiles and Jewish) that lived through Daniel's 70th week.

No this did not happen in 70AD unless you symbolize all of Revelation. Then you must do the same for Daniel, Isaiah and all the other prophets of the OT. Oh, don't forget about Jesus, He made quite a few prophecies in NT and revelation itself.

 

[oldhermit]

Very simple, you die.

"Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." Rev 20:4[/QUOTE


There you go,right on....the Souls of the tribulatons saints and those believers (gentiles and Jewish) that lived through Daniel's 70th week.

No this did not happen in 70AD unless you symbolize all of Revelation. Then you must do the same for Daniel, Isaiah and all the other prophets of the OT. Oh, don't forget about Jesus, He made quite a few prophecies in NT and revelation itself.

Since all of the imagery in Revelation comes out the OT and it was used as symbolism in the OT then yes, I believe John is using these images in the same way the OT prophets used them. These images are not given new meaning. There is nothing in this book that is to be projected beyond the generation of the first century. In chapter 22:6-10 John is told yet again concerning the certainty and Imminence of these things.

“And he said to me, “These words are faithful and true”; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book. I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. But he said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God. And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.”

The visions of Daniel 9 and 12 are about to be fulfilled before their eyes. When Daniel received these visions he was told to seal up the book for the time was not yet. Now, John is given these exact same visions and told, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.” Everything John had just presented to his readers (the seven Churches in Asia) were things that were to happen very soon in their time, not centuries and generations down the road of human history not yet realized. All of these scenes depicted events that would affect them very soon both personally and directly.

 

[heartofdavid]

Since all of the imagery in Revelation comes out the OT and it was used as symbolism in the OT then yes, I believe John is using these images in the same way the OT prophets used them. These images are not given new meaning. There is nothing in this book that is to be projected beyond the generation of the first century. In chapter 22:6-10 John is told yet again concerning the certainty and Imminence of these things.

“And he said to me, “These words are faithful and true”; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book. I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. But he said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God. And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.”

The visions of Daniel 9 and 12 are about to be fulfilled before their eyes.When Danielreceived these visions he was told to seal up the book for the time was not yet. Now, John is given these exact same visions and told, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.” Everything John had just presented to his readers (the seven Churches in Asia) were things that were to happen very soon in their time, not centuries and generations down the road of human history not yet realized. All of these scenes depicted events that would affect them very soon both personally and directly.

[FONT=&quot]Everything John had just presented to his readers (the seven Churches in Asia) were things that were to happen very soon in [/FONT]their[FONT=&quot] time, not centuries and generations down the road of human history not yet realized. All of these scenes depicted events that would affect them very soon both personally and directly. [/FONT]

Mark 14
[FONT=&quot]61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?

OK,the high priest did not see that. It is OBVIOUSLY FUTURE.

But,under your rule of understanding ,we must conclude,Jesus' second coming in power,has already happened[/FONT]

 

[oldhermit]

Mark 14
61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?

OK,the high priest did not see that. It is OBVIOUSLY FUTURE.

But,under your rule of understanding ,we must conclude,Jesus' second coming in power,has already happened

This is not my rule, this is simply the language of the text. The time was near to those to whom this revelation was given.
Yes, the high priest did see this. What do you think the term "I am coming quickly." or "The coming of the Lord" means? How do you think this language is used throughout scripture?

 

[shrume]

Since all of the imagery in Revelation comes out the OT and it was used as symbolism in the OT then yes, I believe John is using these images in the same way the OT prophets used them. These images are not given new meaning. There is nothing in this book that is to be projected beyond the generation of the first century. In chapter 22:6-10 John is told yet again concerning the certainty and Imminence of these things.

“And he said to me, “These words are faithful and true”; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book. I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. But he said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God. And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.”

The visions of Daniel 9 and 12 are about to be fulfilled before their eyes. When Daniel received these visions he was told to seal up the book for the time was not yet. Now, John is given these exact same visions and told, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.” Everything John had just presented to his readers (the seven Churches in Asia) were things that were to happen very soon in their time, not centuries and generations down the road of human history not yet realized. All of these scenes depicted events that would affect them very soon both personally and directly.

So.. To you, the trib is over, Christ has returned and is reigning as King, and we're living on the new earth in New Jerusalem.

If that is true, New Jerusalem sucks and Jesus Christ is a crappy king.

 

[shrume]

This is not my rule, this is simply the language of the text. The time was near to those to whom this revelation was given.
Yes, the high priest did see this. What do you think the term "I am coming quickly." or "The coming of the Lord" means? How do you think this language is used throughout scripture?

Here are some examples:

Joel 1:
15) Alas for that day! For the day of the Lord is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty.

Joel 2:
1) Blow the trumpet in Zion; sound the alarm on my holy hill. Let all who live in the land tremble, for the day of the Lord is coming. It is close at hand—

Joel 3:
14) Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.

Isaiah 13:
6) Wail, for the day of the Lord is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty.

Isaiah 29:
17) In a very short time, will not Lebanon be turned into a fertile field and the fertile field seem like a forest?

Isaiah 51:
5) My righteousness draws near speedily, my salvation is on the way, and my arm will bring justice to the nations. The islands will look to me and wait in hope for my arm.

Zephaniah 1:
7) Be silent before the Sovereign LORD, for the day of the Lord is near. The LORD has prepared a sacrifice; he has consecrated those he has invited.
14) The great day of the Lord is near--near and coming quickly. Listen! The cry on the day of the Lord will be bitter, the shouting of the warrior there.

Ezekiel 30:
3) For the day is near, the day of the Lord is near—a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations.

All of those prophets wrote hundreds of years before Jesus Christ. Even if you believe the "day of the Lord" was fulfilled in 70 AD, they were still "wrong" according to you.

I'm convinced the "day of the Lord" is STILL future.

 

[oldhermit]

Here are some examples:

Joel 1:
15) Alas for that day! For the day of the Lord is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty.

Joel 2:
1) Blow the trumpet in Zion; sound the alarm on my holy hill. Let all who live in the land tremble, for the day of the Lord is coming. It is close at hand—

Joel 3:
14) Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.

Isaiah 13:
6) Wail, for the day of the Lord is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty.

Isaiah 29:
17) In a very short time, will not Lebanon be turned into a fertile field and the fertile field seem like a forest?

Isaiah 51:
5) My righteousness draws near speedily, my salvation is on the way, and my arm will bring justice to the nations. The islands will look to me and wait in hope for my arm.

Zephaniah 1:
7) Be silent before the Sovereign LORD, for the day of the Lord is near. The LORD has prepared a sacrifice; he has consecrated those he has invited.
14) The great day of the Lord is near--near and coming quickly. Listen! The cry on the day of the Lord will be bitter, the shouting of the warrior there.

Ezekiel 30:
3) For the day is near, the day of the Lord is near—a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations.

All of those prophets wrote hundreds of years before Jesus Christ. Even if you believe the "day of the Lord" was fulfilled in 70 AD, they were still "wrong" according to you.

I'm convinced the "day of the Lord" is STILL future.

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."Jesus said that his reward was with him to give every man according to his works. Now some argue that this has not yet happened. However, we must let scripture interpret scripture, and turn to Matthew 16:27-28 and Mark 8:38-9:1 and Luke 9:26-27. Jesus said the exact same thing in these three passages that he did in Revelation 21. In Revelation 21, he said he was coming and "he shall reward every man according to his works." These are the exact same "comings" with the exact same "rewards." But, Jesus also said in these three passages, "There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, until they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." Notice that Jesus tied his coming to the time of those disciples then present. He said that some of his listeners would not die until he came. But to whom is he coming? Why is he coming? What will be their reward when he comes? Jesus said that the "coming" would be to the first century generation of Israel (Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32). Daniel told us that the "rewards" would be that some would be resurrected to "everlasting life" (first resurrection) and others to "everlasting contempt". Now, let's put these two passages together. Jesus said He was coming and that they would witness this and that he was going to reward each one according to his works, and that some of the disciples would not die until they saw this take place.

What this means is that phrases like "the day of the Lord," "coming in the clouds" and "the coming of the Lord" must always be understood within the context in which they are given. These are a judgment figures and are always represented as such in scripture. We see this used many times in both OT and NT scripture and the meaning is always the same. Since you brought up Joel first, let us look at the examples in Joel.

An Overview of Joel

By oldhermit

I. The First Judgment of Judah
A. Because Judah had become disobedient, God promised to destroy their land, 1-2:17.

1. God would ravage their land through four plagues of locust, 1:4 “What the gnawing locust has left, the swarming locust has eaten; And what the swarming locust has left, the creeping locust has eaten; And what the creeping locust has left, the stripping locust has eaten.”
2. God would destroy their land and their crops and their livestock through drought 7-20.
7 It has made my vine a waste and my fig tree splinters. It has stripped them bare and cast them away; Their branches have become white. 8 Wail like a virgin girded with sackcloth for the bridegroom of her youth. 9 The grain offering and the drink offering are cut off from the house of the LORD. The priests mourn, the ministers of the LORD. 10 The field is ruined, the land mourns; For the grain is ruined, the new wine dries up, fresh oil fails. 11 Be ashamed, O farmers, wail, O vine dressers, for the wheat and the barley; Because the harvest of the field is destroyed. 12The vine dries up and the fig tree fails; The pomegranate, the palm also, and the apple tree, all the trees of the field dry up. Indeed, rejoicing dries up from the sons of men. 13 Gird yourselves with sackcloth and lament, O priests; Wail, O ministers of the altar! Come, spend the night in sackcloth O ministers of my God, for the grain offering and the drink offering are withheld from the house of your God. Consecrate a fast, proclaim a solemn assembly; Gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land to the house of the LORD your God, and cry out to the LORD. 15 Alas for the day! For the day of the LORD is near, and it will come as destruction from the Almighty. 16 Has not food been cut off before our eyes, Gladness and joy from the house of our God? 17 The seeds shrivel under their clods; The storehouses are desolate, The barns are torn down, for the grain is dried up. 18 How the beasts groan! The herds of cattle wander aimlessly because there is no pasture for them; Even the flocks of sheep suffer. 19 To you, O LORD, I cry; For fire has devoured the pastures of the wilderness And the flame has burned up all the trees of the field. 20 Even the beasts of the field pant for You for the water brooks are dried up and fire has devoured the pastures of the wilderness.”

B. Their land would be invaded by the Chaldean armies, 2:1-11. This invasion is described metephorically as cosmic chaos, 1-2 and 10-11. The imagery of the invading armies is described in verses 4-11. Look at the judgment figures the Lord employs here.
1 “Blow a trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm on My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, for the day of the LORD is coming. Surely it is near, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness. As the dawn is spread over the mountains, so there is a great and mighty people; There has never been anything like it, nor will there be again after it to the years of many generations. 3 A fire consumes before them and behind them a flame burns. The land is like the garden of Eden before them but a desolate wilderness behind them, and nothing at all escapes them. 4 Their appearance is like the appearance of horses; And like war horses, so they run. 5 With a noise as of chariots they leap on the tops of the mountains, like the crackling of a flame of fire consuming the stubble, like a mighty people arranged for battle. 6 Before them the people are in anguish; All faces turn pale. 7 They run like mighty men, they climb the wall like soldiers; And they each march in line, nor do they deviate from their paths. 8 They do not crowd each other, they march everyone in his path; When they burst through the defenses, they do not break ranks. 9 They rush on the city, they run on the wall; They climb into the houses, they enter through the windows like a thief. 10 Before them the earth quakes, the heavens tremble, the sun and the moon grow dark and the stars lose their brightness. 11 The LORD utters His voice before His army; Surely His camp is very great, for strong is he who carries out His word. The day of the LORD is indeed great and very awesome, and who can endure it?”
C. God pleads for their repentance so that he would not have to bring these thing upon them, 12-20. He promised that if they would repent, he would heal their land, 18-20.
D. After the time of their judgment, God would once again heal their land. 21-27.
The judgment history of Judah is outlined in the book of Joel beginning with God's pre-exilic warnings of impending destruction. “Blow a trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm on My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, for the day of the LORD is coming; Surely it is near,” 2:1. He has already warned them in chapter one that their destruction would begin with the desolation of their land, their crops, and their livestock through plagues. Then, in chapter two he warns them that they would be destroyed as a nation and carried off into captivity.

1. This destruction was characterized by the use of imagery. The image of cosmic chaos in verse ten was used to show that God was about to bring their world to an end. This depicted the destruction of the nation of Judah in 606 BC when Nebuchadnezzar took them away captive to Babylon.
“Before them the earth quakes, the heavens tremble, the sun and the moon grow dark and the stars lose their brightness. The LORD utters His voice before His army;Surely His camp is very great, for strong is he who carries out His word. The day of the LORD is indeed great and very awesome, and who can endure it?”
B. In 12-27 God promised he would bring Judah back from captivity and heal their land and restore their blessings if they would repent. This was fulfilled under Ezra some seventy years later as Judah was released from Persian rule in 536 BC. This was the First Regathering on the nation.
C. In 28-32 God said that “after this,” Judah would once again face the judgment of God and the same metaphor of cosmic chaos is used to illustrate the end of the nation. Yet, this time their destruction was to be preceded by God “pouring out his Spirit upon all flesh.”

 

[shrume]

oldhermit, I am convinced that your historicist/preterist (or partial preterist) view of the scriptures is absolutely wrong, and will be proven to be wrong in the days to come.

Time will tell.

 

[Ahwatukee]

There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, until they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." Notice that Jesus tied his coming to the time of those disciples then present.

First, the "some standing here" were Peter, James and John. And second, Jesus wasn't talking about his return to the earth to end the age. Here is Luke's version of the same scripture:

Prophecy:
Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.”

Prophecy fulfilled:
About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray. As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning.

Peter, James and John were those who were standing there and about a week later what Jesus said was fulfilled when they saw Jesus in His glorified state. Them seeing the Son of Man coming in his glory had nothing to do with Jesus returning to the earth, but the disciples seeing Him in His glorified state. Regarding this, please consider the following:

"If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

In the scripture above, Jesus' driving out demons by the Spirit of God was referred to as the kingdom of God having come upon them. And so it had nothing to do with Jesus tieing his coming to the time of those disciples then present. It had to do with those three disciples seeing the Son of Man coming in His glory, ergo, their seeing the Lord in His glorified state.

 

[Locutus]

Yer gotta chuckle at the mental gymnastics the futurists get up to.

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart.

Musta been quite a rash of deaths in those six days.....

Here's a few more straws to grasp at..

 

[Alertandawake]

Now looking at the context of buying and selling in the modern age, it can involve people going to the shops in person, or online. Either way, there is the push to eliminate physical hand held money. This is evident as we see less and less actual cash being used today (different places will probably have their own statistics of cash usage declining over the years.

Reality is, buying and selling has always involved money, or an alternative to money (and when you break it down, money is a medium of exchange used to purchase goods).

Now in rev 16.2, the description indicates a side effect to those that accept the mark.

Now the thing is, there is medical evidence that has linked cancers/tumors in relation to some animals that have been chipped. Now weather it is the result of a lithium battery leakage, or Radiofrequency electromagnetic radiation, or a combination of both factors, who knows? But if one researches about lithium batteries, they can explode if they get overheated.

If one watches those youtube clips on the internet, one can see how the rfid chip is being implanted into a person, you don't see the rfid chip, but you do see a hypodermic needle being used. One thing worth mentioning, there are a number of articles on the internet in relation to some vaccinations being contaminated with RFID chips. Now whether these articles are accurate, I cannot say, but we do have this technology.

Problem is we do have the technology today that easily fits the description of the mark of the beast, and the evidence of side effects of such technologies as used in animals (so why people are agreeing volunteering for this implant, with the evidence of some animals having cancer/tumors is absolutely mind boggling. Is it really that hard for one to reach for their wallet and take cash out and hand it over the counter?)

 

[iamsoandso]

oldhermit, I am convinced that your historicist/preterist (or partial preterist) view of the scriptures is absolutely wrong, and will be proven to be wrong in the days to come.

Time will tell.

Only time will tell,lol, there is only the one source that would show that the Jews did not worship Caesar as God and the one is ignorant of it and the other in hopes none have read it. Do you know of an source that would shed light on their assertions? If not read this http://sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/war-2.htm

 

[Locutus]

Only time will tell,lol, there is only the one source that would show that the Jews did not worship Caesar as God and the one is ignorant of it and the other in hopes none have read it. Do you know of an source that would shed light on their assertions? If not read this http://sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/war-2.htm

Would you care to quote from Josephus soandso - that's quite a lot of text to read.