True Baptism

[Nehemiah6]

I haven't seen where being baptized, or baptizing was given in the imperative by our LORD. There may be a passage if someone has one to direct me to.

Why would you deny that Matthew 28:18-20 or Mark 16:15,16 are imperative? If that is the case, nothing is imperative in Scripture. But because it is an imperative, the apostle Peter COMMANDED the Gentile believers to be baptized in Acts 10. What is missing today is preachers willing to preach water baptism as a commandment to be IMMEDIATELY obeyed upon conversion. Indeed, believer's baptism should be included in every Gospel message, but it is generally neglected. Hence your question about it being an imperative or not. Baptism does not save, but proves that you are indeed saved and obedient to your Lord and Savior. That Ethiopian eunuch was eager to obey immediately in Acts 8.

 

[hornetguy]

That's not a command sir, it's not in the imperative. Sorry you're not into exegesis and parsing. Thank God the translators of Scripture were.

"Go, and Do, and Teach" is not an imperative?

I thought they still taught grammar after I got out of school....

Is that "fuzzy grammar"?

And, I'm definitely into Exegesis... but not Eisegesis....

 

[Dai3234]

If you teach that, you are calling Jesus a liar. I would not put myself in that position, as it seems that would make you an anti-Christ.. against Christ.

Jesus said to do it, all the apostles taught it and did it, in what scriptures we have, all Christians saw it as necessary for about 1500 years, and then a MAN came along and decided it was "not necessary for salvation"....

Please show me any scriptures that state that water baptism is "not necessary for salvation".... I would like to see it stated in scripture.... anywhere.

I can show you scriptures that say it is necessary... LOTS of them.

I know which side of this discussion I choose, and follow.

Im not sure, but didn't Jesus speak to the Jewish apostles about baptism, and PAUL or Peter said they preached to all nations. Both these points, point to Jew's, yes? Christ preached to Jew's, Paul and later I think, Peter to the gentiles.

Everyone was baptised, unless they didn't mention stopping it.

So if you can, get it done, if you can't, you can't. But don't stop people who ask, or you might be a stumbling block.

 

[hornetguy]

i overstand u read the passages about baptism u see. but have u thought it through ok.
if u are in alone in the desert, about to die and u ask Jesus to save u and repent. too bad no water nearby.
the thief on the cross had the same problem u see.

what if u are in a place where there is nobody to baptize u, just unlucky?
acts 16:31 john 3:16 ephesians 2:8-9 there are verses that say faith alone is good enough too!!!

the truth of what was written in scripture was very plain... it is not dependent on my "thinking it through".. It wasn't given to us as an "option". If our acceptance of salvation does not necessarily include baptism, then why do it at all?? Anytime? Why even mention it?

We can all come up with some type of "hypothetical" situation.... what if I was driving down the road and decided to give my life to Jesus, and hit a truck head on? What if I decide to accept Jesus on my deathbed, then immediately die? What if I was an astronaut in outer space and decided to accept Jesus?

I mean, good grief..... at some point in our life we have to understand the nature of God... how He loves us INFINITELY more than our earthly fathers do, and He wants us to be saved. I leave all the "hypothetical" situations up to HIM, and His infinite mercy. God knows our hearts, and loves us.

 

[MarcR]

If you teach that, you are calling Jesus a liar. I would not put myself in that position, as it seems that would make you an anti-Christ.. against Christ.

Jesus said to do it, all the apostles taught it and did it, in what scriptures we have, all Christians saw it as necessary for about 1500 years, and then a MAN came along and decided it was "not necessary for salvation"....

Please show me any scriptures that state that water baptism is "not necessary for salvation".... I would like to see it stated in scripture.... anywhere.

I can show you scriptures that say it is necessary... LOTS of them.

I know which side of this discussion I choose, and follow.

I agree that Baptism is not necessary for Salvation because it is intended as a step of obedience in response to Salvation.

The thief on the cross demonstrates that people who accept the Lordship of Jesus on their deathbeds are just as saved as anyone else.

When a person is obedient in baptism, they are publicly identifying themselves with Christ in His death burial and resurrection. "I am now dead to sin, buried with Christ in baptism, and raised again to newness of life'.

The problem with believing that baptism is necessary for salvation is that it negates the basic principle that there is NOTHING we can do to contribute to our Salvation.

Beyond this I will not try to persuade you because if what I have said doesn't persuade you, nothing will.

Of course I speak of water Baptism. Baptism of the Holy Spirit is definitely essential but God does that for us

 

[preacher4truth]

"Go, and Do, and Teach" is not an imperative?

That's correct.

I thought they still taught grammar after I got out of school....

Let's not forget you're not into parsing so why concern yourself over grammar? The translators were into grammar, thank God for that.

Now, it is noted you take things at "face value" which means you must have an eye and hand missing in order to be true to your word.

Is that "fuzzy grammar"?

Nope, it is quite plain; pluck out your eye, cut off your hand. Or, perhaps it means something else? Oh, and by the way Matthew 5:29, 30? It is in the imperative mood. Better get busy, right, Mr. Face Value?

And, I'm definitely into Exegesis... but not Eisegesis....

I've yet to see you demonstrate this. Seems you're more into being snide and snarky.

 

[MarcR]

Yes, but in western baptism, it's indoors, in view of believers only anyway, so it's not much of a evangelising image etc if everyone believes.

In a poor country that uses a lake, maybe a strong message, but in western/modern UK, they won't give you a baptism except for a long period later from attending church.

Like a hypocritical reward. Church attendance is not biblical in regards to one pastor preaching and everyone listening anyway. Week after week after week, and the congregation evangelises every 3months on beach missions, or Halloween missions. But day to day, oh that's for missionaries not us.
It's a joke. Just make sure someone knows the gospel and reason for baptism, then baptize or quit preaching. Because your not doing your job, maybe. What do I know.

Maybe it was always wait a few years before baptism?? Nonsense. Makes me sick. I hope preachers will do their job one day....

Many churches practice river baptism, ocean baptism, or baptism in public swimming pools,in the belief that it should be a public statement

 

[preacher4truth]

Why would you deny that Matthew 28:18-20 or Mark 16:15,16 are imperative?

Matthew isn't in the imperative. Mark is, as far as going to preach, yet there is some question as to the validity of Mark 16:9ff. That should set your pants on fire right about now.

If that is the case,

No, since that is the case.

nothing is imperative in Scripture.

Now you're going extreme, you seem to do that often. Seems you get angry quite easily. Or something. Or just jump to wild unfounded conclusions. Relax.

But because it is an imperative, the apostle Peter COMMANDED the Gentile believers to be baptized in Acts 10. What is missing today is preachers willing to preach water baptism as a commandment to be IMMEDIATELY obeyed upon conversion. Indeed, believer's baptism should be included in every Gospel message, but it is generally neglected.

I've addressed this and agree concerning Peter in Acts. Obviously, you either have missed that, didn't see it, or just plain want it to be that we disagree so you can argue?

Yes, it should be preached, along with repentance and the rest of the Gospel.

Hence your question about it being an imperative or not.

Redundant. Already addressed.

Baptism does not save, but proves that you are indeed saved and obedient to your Lord and Savior.

Being baptized doesn't prove one is saved. That's just ridiculous. Hope you don't preach that. Or at least stop preaching it.

That Ethiopian eunuch was eager to obey immediately in Acts 8.

Yes.

 

[notuptome]

Many churches practice river baptism, ocean baptism, or baptism in public swimming pools,in the belief that it should be a public statement

They are also good places to find water.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Locutus]

I don't see how baptizing would not be included in the scope of the aorist "commands" in the same way as "teaching" in Matt 28:20.

Maybe Angela needs to wade in on this one.

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[preacher4truth]

I don't see how baptizing would not be included in the scope of the aorist "commands" in the same way as "teaching" in Matt 28:20.

Maybe Angela needs to wade in on this one.

Ah, now we're talking aorist, not imperative (tense not mood).

 

[Nehemiah6]

Matthew isn't in the imperative. Mark is, as far as going to preach, yet there is some question as to the validity of Mark 16:9ff. That should set your pants on fire right about now.

And the Gospel is only for Grammarians? What a ridiculous notion. As to The Last Twelve Verses of Mark, they have been incontrovertibly established as genuine Scripture, so you are still trying to catch up. Read and study the book by the same title.

Being baptized doesn't prove one is saved. That's just ridiculous.

Obedience to Christ is indeed proof of salvation. Nothing ridiculous about it. If you doubt that, then kindly review the entire New Testament.

 

[preacher4truth]

And the Gospel is only for Grammarians?

You're full of false accusations, aren't you?

What a ridiculous notion.

What a ridiculous piece of slander.

As to The Last Twelve Verses of Mark, they have been incontrovertibly established as genuine Scripture,

Incorrect.

so you are still trying to catch up. Read and study the book by the same title.

More ad hominem... Why, may I ask, is your practice on here typically filled with name calling, false accusations, slander, demeaning remarks of others? It happens daily, and several times per day with you.

Obedience to Christ is indeed proof of salvation.

See how you change things? You said baptism is proof.

It isn't.

There have been many people who were baptized who aren't and were never saved. Many have shown themselves to be apostate after being baptized and following the teachings of Christ obediently for years. Bart Ehrman would be one. There are more.

Nothing ridiculous about it.

Oh, it's ridiculous alright. Do you guarantee people they're on their way to heaven because they got baptized? You should probably stop doing that. It proves absolutely nothing.

If you doubt that, then kindly review the entire New Testament.

Not only do I doubt it, I've shown it to be unfounded.

And I'm on the reviewing the NT thing. Happens several times per year.

 

[Locutus]

As far as I can see Peter is "acting out" the imperative here..

 

[DJ2]

Why would you deny that Matthew 28:18-20 or Mark 16:15,16 are imperative? If that is the case, nothing is imperative in Scripture. But because it is an imperative, the apostle Peter COMMANDED the Gentile believers to be baptized in Acts 10. What is missing today is preachers willing to preach water baptism as a commandment to be IMMEDIATELY obeyed upon conversion. Indeed, believer's baptism should be included in every Gospel message, but it is generally neglected. Hence your question about it being an imperative or not. Baptism does not save, but proves that you are indeed saved and obedient to your Lord and Savior. That Ethiopian eunuch was eager to obey immediately in Acts 8.

How does getting dunked in water "prove" you are saved and can you be saved without the "proof"?

If a command is not mandatory and has no penalty, is it truly a command?

 

[preacher4truth]

As far as I can see Peter is "acting out" the imperative here.

Well, Peter was a Baptist, so he's biased like that...

 

[shrume]

Does the Bible command us to be baptized in the Holy Spirit?

It's not worded that way, but if you're not born again of the Holy Spirit, you are not saved.

If so how do we do this

See Rom 10:9-10; Eph 1:13-14

and how do we know we are baptized, tongues?

Speaking in tongues is one evidence, yes.

And PLEASE do not automatically assume that I am saying that if you don't speak in tongues you aren't saved. I am NOT saying that, OK?

 

[shrume]

If you teach that, you are calling Jesus a liar. I would not put myself in that position, as it seems that would make you an anti-Christ.. against Christ.

God bless you, too. Thanks for the warm welcome.

I'm not calling Jesus a liar, nor am I an anti-christ.

Jesus said to do it, all the apostles taught it and did it, in what scriptures we have, all Christians saw it as necessary for about 1500 years, and then a MAN came along and decided it was "not necessary for salvation"....

Please show me any scriptures that state that water baptism is "not necessary for salvation".... I would like to see it stated in scripture.... anywhere.

I did above. I doubt repeating them would convince you.

I can show you scriptures that say it is necessary... LOTS of them.

I believe that in many cases you confuse water baptism with the true baptism, which is baptism in the Holy Spirit.

I know which side of this discussion I choose, and follow.

You have made your position clear.

 

[MarcR]

How does getting dunked in water "prove" you are saved and can you be saved without the "proof"?

If a command is not mandatory and has no penalty, is it truly a command?

Not mandatory for Salvation is not the same as not mandatory.

God's commands are mandatory.

Disobedience does NOT cause us to loose our Salvation. We don't disown our kids when they disobey us and God is far more gracious than we are. When we disobey we bring chastening on ourselves; and miss the blessings that come with obedience.

 

[Bogadile]

Whatever is or is not mandatory.

When I was born, I was born into a Lutheran family so obviously I got baptized then too.
However I did not truly get saved until much later in life, and that is when I picked up my Bible, I started reading from matthew to revelation. The New Testament. I then ran into:

Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

After that I got in contact with a baptist church to get baptized asap and two weeks later I was.

The moral of the story is: Get baptized, it does not hurt you. I have recently read an interesting article about this subject sent by a brother on this forum.