Belief without action is not genuine belief (James 2:14). Now in regards to the car analogy, simply believing our breaks will stop the car "in of itself" will not stop the car from crashing if we don't apply the brakes, yet believing in the death, burial and resurrection as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation will save us from eternal condemnation because Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. So how much action/how many good works do you believe that we must accomplish and "add as a supplement" to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to "help" Him save us?
Simply believing does save us. 1 Corinthians 1:21 - For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. Come in contact with the blood? I've often heard people who attend the church of Christ say that we "contact the blood of Christ" in water baptism, but that is false.
In Colossians 1:14, we read - in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. "Through His blood" is a reference not limited to the fluid as if the blood has saving properties in it's chemistry and we literally contact it in the waters of baptism, but is an expression pointing to the totality of Christ's atoning work as a sacrifice for sin. The word "cross" is used similarly to refer to the whole atoning work of Christ on the cross (1 Corinthians 1:18; Galatians 6:12,14; Ephesians 2:16).
False. Water baptism is the symbol, but not the reality. As Greek scholar AT Robertson explains, "a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality." Before mentioning baptism in chapter 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that FAITH, not baptism is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification (Romans 1:16, 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1). That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures.
Righteousness is "imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised up because of our justification" (Romans 4:24,25). Since believers receive the benefits of Christ’s death and resurrection (justification), and that through faith, believers must be spiritually united to Him (delivered and raised up with Him). *If baptism is taken as the instrumental cause, then Paul contradicts what he had established before, namely that justification is by FAITH, not baptism. *Hermeneutics.
Again, you are confusing the symbol/picture with the reality. Your faith is in the baptism, rather than the baptizer -- Jesus (Matthew 3:11). Seeking salvation by means of water baptism is NOT obeying the gospel, but is obeying a "different" gospel. Baptism pictures a person being buried with Christ and being raised to new life. This symbolizes the person's union with and incorporation into Christ, which is by the action of the Holy Spirit which previously took place during Spirit baptism and gives them power to walk in newness of life.
Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith." Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead" (Colossians 2:12). Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about "through faith" - and is properly symbolized by dipping the new believer in and out of the water.
We are Spirit baptized (not water baptized) into the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). In what sense are we water baptized into Christ? In the same sense that the Israelites were "baptized into Moses." (1 Corinthians 10:2) *Not literally water baptized into the body of Moses here, but baptized into Moses indicating their oneness, or solidarity, with Moses as their leader (1 Corinthians 10:2) just as through water baptism we indicate our oneness, or solidarity with Christ as our Savior.
Thank you as well. I perceive that it will difficult for you to comprehend anything beyond your church of Christ indoctrination. Been there, done that, but now I BELIEVE. Please take the time to prayerfully consider what I have shared with you and God bless.
Simply believing does save us. 1 Corinthians 1:21 - For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. Come in contact with the blood? I've often heard people who attend the church of Christ say that we "contact the blood of Christ" in water baptism, but that is false.
In Colossians 1:14, we read - in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. "Through His blood" is a reference not limited to the fluid as if the blood has saving properties in it's chemistry and we literally contact it in the waters of baptism, but is an expression pointing to the totality of Christ's atoning work as a sacrifice for sin. The word "cross" is used similarly to refer to the whole atoning work of Christ on the cross (1 Corinthians 1:18; Galatians 6:12,14; Ephesians 2:16).
False. Water baptism is the symbol, but not the reality. As Greek scholar AT Robertson explains, "a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality." Before mentioning baptism in chapter 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that FAITH, not baptism is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification (Romans 1:16, 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1). That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures.
Righteousness is "imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised up because of our justification" (Romans 4:24,25). Since believers receive the benefits of Christ’s death and resurrection (justification), and that through faith, believers must be spiritually united to Him (delivered and raised up with Him). *If baptism is taken as the instrumental cause, then Paul contradicts what he had established before, namely that justification is by FAITH, not baptism. *Hermeneutics.
Again, you are confusing the symbol/picture with the reality. Your faith is in the baptism, rather than the baptizer -- Jesus (Matthew 3:11). Seeking salvation by means of water baptism is NOT obeying the gospel, but is obeying a "different" gospel. Baptism pictures a person being buried with Christ and being raised to new life. This symbolizes the person's union with and incorporation into Christ, which is by the action of the Holy Spirit which previously took place during Spirit baptism and gives them power to walk in newness of life.
Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith." Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead" (Colossians 2:12). Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about "through faith" - and is properly symbolized by dipping the new believer in and out of the water.
We are Spirit baptized (not water baptized) into the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). In what sense are we water baptized into Christ? In the same sense that the Israelites were "baptized into Moses." (1 Corinthians 10:2) *Not literally water baptized into the body of Moses here, but baptized into Moses indicating their oneness, or solidarity, with Moses as their leader (1 Corinthians 10:2) just as through water baptism we indicate our oneness, or solidarity with Christ as our Savior.
Thank you as well. I perceive that it will difficult for you to comprehend anything beyond your church of Christ indoctrination. Been there, done that, but now I BELIEVE. Please take the time to prayerfully consider what I have shared with you and God bless.
So one question to me, if I remember correctly, was at what point of obedience do I believe one is saved? Well, I think, and hope, that we both can agree that a worldly person who does not obey God at all, in any way, not even in belief, will not be saved, correct? Because Jesus said most enter through the wide gate, and few find the narrow gate. So I'm hoping we can at least agree that there has to be some obedience on our part in order to receive salvation. So the first level of obedience (if you want to call it that, I never have before) is that one must react to God somehow in their conscience, in a positive, obedient way. Which means they must at least believe that He exists. But even demons are at that level, and they will not receive salvation for it. (Let me know if you don't agree to the first level of obedience-which is any at all).
The second level of obedience would be acknowledging that God sent His Son to die on the cross for our sins. Jews, who believe in God, yet do not believe that the prophesied Christ has come in the flesh, will not receive salvation.
The third level of obedience I guess would be that we must go to Jesus. "Come to me those of you who are heavy- laden, and I will give you rest." There are false doctrines out there like "ask Jesus into your heart and you will be saved." He does not come to us, unless we are already His sheep, and have gone astray, we must first initiate going to Him. "Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness." The example given in the Old Testament, of a snake statue (representing Christ coming in the likeness of sinful men) that those bitten may be cured of the poisonous venom (representing sin) was not brought to them, rather they had to seek it out and go to it in order to be saved from death. In the same way, Christ says He must be lifted up on the cross, and will draw all men onto Himself. So we must seek Him out, and go to Him.
The forth level is we must hear the plan of salvation. Now we get into scripture of what we must do. We must learn and do the steps that lead to baptism- which is obeying the gospel of Christ. The steps that lead to coming in spirituality contact with Christ's spiritual blood are...
Hear (scripture)
Believe (what the scripture says)
Confess that Jesus is the Son of the Living God
Repent (make a u-turn away from sin)
Be baptized (circumcision of the heart, spiritual death, spiritual burial, resurrection to newness of life)
Feed on the Word (whatever does not grow dies)
Not forsake the body of Christ (church)
Take the Lord's Supper in the assembly of the Saints (fellow Christians) upon the first day of the week
Continue to die daily to sin, not going back on what you've attained so far in your growth
Not use God's grace (Christ's blood) as a license to sin
And be faithful and obedient till the point of death
Like trying to follow an Olympic jumper who jumps from this line to the next line, but not able to make it over the second line like the pro athlete (representing Jesus) can, we must try to make it as far as we can, and the distance remaining, Christ goes that extra distance on our behalf, because we are trying. But to those who will not even try, He will not go any of the distance for them.
For He says "If you sin willfully, there no longer remains a sacrifice for your sins." ('No longer' meaning there once genuinely did). If we sin purposely, premeditated, with no effort or goal to stop, we lose our salvation. Both the righteous and the unrighteous sin, but the righteous are trying not to- they are trying to do what's right, trying to obey God. But the difference between you and me is, you think all you need to do is be in the righteous group (the Elect of God), whereas I believe there is an even smaller group within the righteous group that you must be in (The Very Elect of God). It's not enough to be righteous, to be God's servant, you have to be very obedient. The scriptures say "For if it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" And "Throw that lazy and wicked servant out into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." And "Each of you must work out their own salvation with fear and trembling."
Because God chooses who to give the gift of grace to, and decides to give it to those trying ever so desperately to obey Him. Their obedience does not earn it- which is why it has to be a gift. That's like if I put forth effort to sell my garbage for one penny toward the price of a mansion, but could not even make one cent toward its price, but the mansion's owner seen my effort and decided to give me his mansion for free. I did not earn it, not in the least bit, it was a gift. But he would not have given it to me had he not seen my effort. God gives grace to those showing grand effort, but their efforts do not earn it in the least bit.
Please let me know at what point you start disagreeing with me, because I am trying to understand your thinking on this.
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