True Baptism

[notuptome]

Jesus told us to go and teach the gospel to all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Peter told the folks at Pentecost to repent, and be baptized.

Paul immediately went out and was baptized, after regaining his sight.

Cornelius' family were all baptized upon acceptance of Jesus.

Lydia and her household were baptized.

The eunuch was baptized.

The believers in Ephesus, who had only been baptized in John's name, were baptized again in Jesus' name.

Peter talked quite a bit about baptism, even showing the comparison to Noah being saved "through water".

If there had been only ONE mention of water baptism being a part of the salvation plan, that would be enough. It was not necessary for the writers of the NT to mention the whole, step by step process every time they talked about believers being saved. It was taken for granted that the readers knew the process, because it is what the apostles had taught and practiced since Jesus ascended.

To attempt to pass off all those scriptures as being about "spirit baptism" is just wrong. The people of those times had no concept of what a "spiritual baptism" was, and would not have understood what was being taught. The apostles would have known that, and would have clearly stated "the baptism I'm talking about here, is NOT the normal water baptism, but is a baptism in spirit only"

To pick a random scripture that mentions "those that believe will be saved", and try to make it binding as the only necessary requirement for salvation, is eisigesis at its worst. That practice is picking and choosing only the scriptures that fit an incorrect belief system.

I will not do that. I will read ALL the scriptures, and read them with understanding, and help from the Holy Spirit of God.

Scripture is pretty plain on this topic. Twisting scriptures around to fit your "faith only" belief system is wrong.

You will notice, however, that I have not, and will not, question your salvation, or your "understanding" ..... that sort of behavior is beneath me.... and you.

Baptism must been understood in the context in which it is presented. There is a difference between water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism. Ignore this context and you cannot arrive at the correct conclusion.

Ro 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Saved by grace period. Water baptism is a work therefore not of grace.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[hornetguy]

This only proves that baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation.

Yes, eight people in the ark were saved "through" water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.

If water baptism is part of the plan of salvation, then why can't we find ONE verse that clearly states - "whoever is not water baptized will be condemned?" In Luke 13:3, Jesus said - "unless you repent you will all likewise perish." In John 3:18, Jesus said - "but he who does not believe is condemned already.." Yet NO mention of "water baptized or condemned." hmm...
The reason it doesn't say that is because it is assumed... baptism was taught as being an essential part of accepting Jesus. Should Jesus have said, "unless you hear, believe, repent, and be baptized, you will all perish" ?
Salvation through faith is not a step by step process that culminates in water baptism. Actually, according to scripture, and the direct instruction from Jesus, it is. The Roman Catholic church along with the Mormon church and other churches that teach salvation by works are also strong advocates of salvation by water baptism. That doesn't make you wonder why? Nobody that I know of is teaching "salvation by works". I'm certainly not, and you can feel free to back check all of my comments on this board to see if you can find ANYWHERE that I said it...

There are actually a multitude of verses that mention "those who believe (apart from additions or modifications) will be saved" and trying to "add" or "shoe horn" water baptism and other works into "believes" is eisigesis at it's worst.

We are saved through faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE (Ephesians 2:8,9). *Not to be confused with what James refers to as "faith only" (James 2:24) which is an empty profession of faith (James 2:14) dead faith that remains "alone" (barren of works). Works salvationists often get this confused. Been there, done that.

I added my comments in green...

 

[mailmandan]

mailmandan - If water baptism is part of the plan of salvation, then why can't we find ONE verse that clearly states - "whoever is not water baptized will be condemned?" In Luke 13:3, Jesus said - "unless you repent you will all likewise perish." In John 3:18, Jesus said - "but he who does not believe is condemned already.." Yet NO mention of "water baptized or condemned." hmm...

The reason it doesn't say that is because it is assumed...

How is it assumed if the Bible NEVER says "whoever is not water baptized will be condemned?" Repent is not baptism and believe is not baptism and you can repent and believe the gospel but NOT YET BE WATER BAPTIZED. *So much for baptism being assumed. Yet verses that only mention repentance but not faith in regards to salvation/receiving remission of sins, faith is implied or assumed. In verses where faith is mentioned but not repentance, repentance is implied or assumed. Where you have one, you must have the other. Repentance and faith are two sides to the same coin of receiving Christ. I already thoroughly explained this in post #182.

baptism was taught as being an essential part of accepting Jesus. Should Jesus have said, "unless you hear, believe, repent, and be baptized, you will all perish" ?

I noticed that you left out confession, which is usually step 3 or 4 (depending on whether or not "hear the word" is listed as step 1 in the church of Christ 4-5 step plan of salvation). Believing in Jesus/Faith in Jesus is the essential part of accepting Jesus (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 10:4; Ephesians 2:8; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Accepting Jesus is SIGNIFIED, but not procured in water baptism. Believers get water baptized BECAUSE they have accepted Jesus and not in order to accept Jesus. Water baptism is a work of righteousness that "follows" accepting Jesus and we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5).

Salvation through faith is not a step by step process that culminates in water baptism.

Actually, according to scripture, and the direct instruction from Jesus, it is.

According to Jesus, BELIEVING "apart from water baptism" results in salvation/receiving eternal life (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26).

The Roman Catholic church along with the Mormon church and other churches that teach salvation by works are also strong advocates of salvation by water baptism. That doesn't make you wonder why?

Nobody that I know of is teaching "salvation by works". I'm certainly not, and you can feel free to back check all of my comments on this board to see if you can find ANYWHERE that I said it...

Water baptism is a work that follows faith in Christ and you teach salvation "through faith + baptism" so right there alone you are advocating salvation by works.

It amazes how people like you who attend the church of Christ claim that you don't teach salvation by works, yet in multiple discussions that I've had with people who attend the church of Christ, that does not turn out to be the case. Here are some quotes below from people who attend the church of Christ that I've had discussions with:

"You see that a man is justified/saved by works, and not by faith only."

"It is works of obedience that help to save us, not works of the law or works of merit."

Does that sound like "not teaching salvation by works" to you? People who attend the church of Christ and the Roman Catholic church and the Mormon church all use James 2:14-26 as a proof text to teach that we are saved by faith AND works.

I was once in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who also claimed that he does not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, he said this below:

"We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith".
Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, Works of mercy and charity, Obeying his commandments."

Not only did this Roman Catholic incorrectly define "Faith," he also contradicted himself by saying he does not teach salvation by works. So I guess for the Roman Catholic, not only would they believe that baptism is implied or assumed where the Bible only mentions repent or believe/faith in connection with receiving salvation/eternal life (Luke 24:47; John 3:18; Acts 3:19; Ephesians 2:8 etc..), but apparently, partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, Works of mercy and charity and obeying His commandments would also be implied or assumed according to his statement.

 

[hornetguy]

Water baptism is a work that follows faith in Christ and you teach salvation "through faith + baptism" so right there alone you are advocating salvation by works.

No... it is NOT a "work". Baptism is an act of obedience to God, just as "believing" is.

Water baptism is a work of righteousness that "follows" accepting Jesus and we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5).

Salvation through faith is not a step by step process that culminates in water baptism.

Quite the contradiction there.... if we are to be baptized upon acceptance of Jesus free gift, then, salvation through faith is by definition a step by step process that culminates in baptism....

You are still dancing around trying to NOT say out loud that baptism really is worthless, and completely unnecessary. You might as well come out and publicly state it.

Jesus and the apostles NEVER indicated that baptism was a frivolous "option"..... do it if you feel like it, skip it if you don't ...

That concept is totally man-made "doctrine", which didn't come along until the sola fide doctrines of Martin Luther. We ARE saved as a free gift, through our faith, and baptism is our way of showing that we have accepted Jesus. It is, therefore, necessary.

The evolution of the sola fide doctrine is the end result.... baptism is not necessary, even though it was taught and practiced all the way up until Luther. While the idea of salvation being a free gift is true, the dismissal or minimization of baptism is not.

 

[notuptome]

No... it is NOT a "work". Baptism is an act of obedience to God, just as "believing" is.



Quite the contradiction there.... if we are to be baptized upon acceptance of Jesus free gift, then, salvation through faith is by definition a step by step process that culminates in baptism....

You are still dancing around trying to NOT say out loud that baptism really is worthless, and completely unnecessary. You might as well come out and publicly state it.

Jesus and the apostles NEVER indicated that baptism was a frivolous "option"..... do it if you feel like it, skip it if you don't ...

That concept is totally man-made "doctrine", which didn't come along until the sola fide doctrines of Martin Luther. We ARE saved as a free gift, through our faith, and baptism is our way of showing that we have accepted Jesus. It is, therefore, necessary.

The evolution of the sola fide doctrine is the end result.... baptism is not necessary, even though it was taught and practiced all the way up until Luther. While the idea of salvation being a free gift is true, the dismissal or minimization of baptism is not.

All this is clear when you understand that Jesus breathes the Holy Spirit unto each soul as they receive Him as their Savior. There is no step transaction in salvation.

Salvation is all of God and none of man. If as you contend through incorrect exegesis of the scriptures that water baptism is essential then salvation is no longer of grace but of works of men.

So was Noah and his family saved by the water in the flood or by the ark? Who put Noah into the ark and then sealed it?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[mailmandan]

No... it is NOT a "work". Baptism is an act of obedience to God, just as "believing" is.

Water baptism is an act of obedience/work that follows believing and receiving salvation (Acts 10:43-47). Matthew 3:13 - Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. 14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?" 15 But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him. *Baptism is clearly a work of righteousness and we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5).

You said that baptism is not a work, but is an act of obedience, which is an oxymoron. Work gets accomplished when one is water baptized, so it's a work. Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves (Romans 1:16; 10:16). Believing the gospel is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works.

Quite the contradiction there.... if we are to be baptized upon acceptance of Jesus free gift, then, salvation through faith is by definition a step by step process that culminates in baptism....

No contradiction at all and we are baptized AFTER acceptance of Jesus free gift and not to receive the free gift. You put the cart before the horse. Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith (not faith and baptism) we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace (not faith and baptism) in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

We are saved by grace through faith (not faith and baptism) and it is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast (Ephesians 2:8,9). *You have a flawed definition of faith, just as Roman Catholics do. Your faith is in the baptism, rather than exclusively in the Savior, where it belongs.

You are still dancing around trying to NOT say out loud that baptism really is worthless, and completely unnecessary. You might as well come out and publicly state it.

I don't view baptism as worthless. I couldn't wait to get water baptized AFTER I received Christ through faith and was saved and I did receive water baptism after my conversion. I don't view partaking of the Lord's Supper as worthless, yet I'm not trusting in partaking of the Lord's Supper as the means of my salvation. I don't view church attendance or reading my Bible or praying as worthless, but I am not trusting in how often I attend church or how often I read my Bible or how often I pray as the means of my salvation either.

*I am trusting exclusively in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation. Apparently, you view Christ's finished work of redemption as IN-sufficient to save and feel that you must add your baptism as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save you. You might as well come out and publicly state it.

Jesus and the apostles NEVER indicated that baptism was a frivolous "option"..... do it if you feel like it, skip it if you don't ...

It's a command that believers are expected to obey, yet it's not obedience to that command that saves, but believing in Jesus (Acts 10:43-47). I can't name one Christian I know who has refused to get water baptized after their conversion.

That concept is totally man-made "doctrine", which didn't come along until the sola fide doctrines of Martin Luther. We ARE saved as a free gift, through our faith, and baptism is our way of showing that we have accepted Jesus. It is, therefore, necessary.

I agree that baptism is our way of showing that we have accepted Jesus, which means that we have accepted Jesus BEFORE water baptism. Your words. That still does not make it absolutely necessary for salvation.

The evolution of the sola fide doctrine is the end result.... baptism is not necessary, even though it was taught and practiced all the way up until Luther. While the idea of salvation being a free gift is true, the dismissal or minimization of baptism is not.

That sounds like a Roman Catholic sales pitch. Faith is not baptism and faith precedes water baptism and we are saved through faith in Christ. It's just that simple. That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works is not hard to understand. It's just hard for many people to ACCEPT. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to take hold of Christ through faith. Their faith is in their works and NOT in CHRIST ALONE. It's called human pride.

 

[Bogadile]

The problem with adding water baptism as an absolute requirement to salvation is problematic in the sense that it makes salvation dependant on man.

Meaning, you need to have another man to baptize you. If you are in a north korean labour camp, you cannot be saved because there is no one to baptize you.

I am aware of Acts 2:38 and I have been baptized myself, however there are many situations where if water baptism is 100% required, the final deciding factor in salvation rests upon man, finding another individual to baptize you, which is not always possible. Something to consider. If you are blessed to be in a position where nothing prevents you from being baptized, by all means, do so NOW.

 

[DJ2]

The problem with adding water baptism as an absolute requirement to salvation is problematic in the sense that it makes salvation dependant on man.

Meaning, you need to have another man to baptize you. If you are in a north korean labour camp, you cannot be saved because there is no one to baptize you.

I am aware of Acts 2:38 and I have been baptized myself, however there are many situations where if water baptism is 100% required, the final deciding factor in salvation rests upon man, finding another individual to baptize you, which is not always possible. Something to consider. If you are blessed to be in a position where nothing prevents you from being baptized, by all means, do so NOW.

Your post is simply an attempt to find a loophole in the Great Commission, much like a lawyer will attempt to find a clause in a contract to make null and void its enforcement. Baptism is required, it is not an option.

The blind man could have said, "well I am sure God would not expect me to walk to the Pool of Siloam and wash, I am blind."

Attempting to prove something is not needed because effort would be required is poor logic. The flow and form of the entire Bible is one of God offering His grace and man either rejects or attempts the grace.

 

[DJ2]

All this is clear when you understand that Jesus breathes the Holy Spirit unto each soul as they receive Him as their Savior. There is no step transaction in salvation.

Salvation is all of God and none of man. If as you contend through incorrect exegesis of the scriptures that water baptism is essential then salvation is no longer of grace but of works of men.

So was Noah and his family saved by the water in the flood or by the ark? Who put Noah into the ark and then sealed it?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The flow and form of the Bible has been one of God offering His grace and man either rejecting it or accepting it. If you truly have read the Bible you should be able to see this common theme. The Bible does not present a pattern of God simply saving mankind without any response from us.

Adam and Eve were allowed to stay in the garden as long as they stayed in His good graces. Once they refused to obey the simple command of not eating of the tree they lost that grace. This model has been followed throughout the scriptures.

God has offered mankind different paths to take, it is our choice to accept the path of grace or doom. Do not attempt to gloss over this most important matter. Many people will find themselves without their wedding clothes, confused as to why others are properly clothed.

Call it a "work" if you wish but not accepting the grace of God on His terms will lead many to their destruction.

 

[DJ2]

mailmandan - If water baptism is part of the plan of salvation, then why can't we find ONE verse that clearly states - "whoever is not water baptized will be condemned?" In Luke 13:3, Jesus said - "unless you repent you will all likewise perish." In John 3:18, Jesus said - "but he who does not believe is condemned already.." Yet NO mention of "water baptized or condemned." hmm...

How is it assumed if the Bible NEVER says "whoever is not water baptized will be condemned?" Repent is not baptism and believe is not baptism and you can repent and believe the gospel but NOT YET BE WATER BAPTIZED. *So much for baptism being assumed. Yet verses that only mention repentance but not faith in regards to salvation/receiving remission of sins, faith is implied or assumed. In verses where faith is mentioned but not repentance, repentance is implied or assumed. Where you have one, you must have the other. Repentance and faith are two sides to the same coin of receiving Christ. I already thoroughly explained this in post #182.

I noticed that you left out confession, which is usually step 3 or 4 (depending on whether or not "hear the word" is listed as step 1 in the church of Christ 4-5 step plan of salvation). Believing in Jesus/Faith in Jesus is the essential part of accepting Jesus (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 10:4; Ephesians 2:8; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Accepting Jesus is SIGNIFIED, but not procured in water baptism. Believers get water baptized BECAUSE they have accepted Jesus and not in order to accept Jesus. Water baptism is a work of righteousness that "follows" accepting Jesus and we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5).

Salvation through faith is not a step by step process that culminates in water baptism.

According to Jesus, BELIEVING "apart from water baptism" results in salvation/receiving eternal life (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26).

The Roman Catholic church along with the Mormon church and other churches that teach salvation by works are also strong advocates of salvation by water baptism. That doesn't make you wonder why?

Water baptism is a work that follows faith in Christ and you teach salvation "through faith + baptism" so right there alone you are advocating salvation by works.

It amazes how people like you who attend the church of Christ claim that you don't teach salvation by works, yet in multiple discussions that I've had with people who attend the church of Christ, that does not turn out to be the case. Here are some quotes below from people who attend the church of Christ that I've had discussions with:

"You see that a man is justified/saved by works, and not by faith only."

"It is works of obedience that help to save us, not works of the law or works of merit."

Does that sound like "not teaching salvation by works" to you? People who attend the church of Christ and the Roman Catholic church and the Mormon church all use James 2:14-26 as a proof text to teach that we are saved by faith AND works.

I was once in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who also claimed that he does not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, he said this below:

"We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith".
Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, Works of mercy and charity, Obeying his commandments."

Not only did this Roman Catholic incorrectly define "Faith," he also contradicted himself by saying he does not teach salvation by works. So I guess for the Roman Catholic, not only would they believe that baptism is implied or assumed where the Bible only mentions repent or believe/faith in connection with receiving salvation/eternal life (Luke 24:47; John 3:18; Acts 3:19; Ephesians 2:8 etc..), but apparently, partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, Works of mercy and charity and obeying His commandments would also be implied or assumed according to his statement.

This post is nothing more then a straw man. What the Mormon or Roman Catholic churches believe on this subject is moot. We are not debating their dogma but the bible's stand on baptism. A number of "trust only" sects have bizarre teachings as well but this is not part of the discussion.

Is your special discernment telling you that this is a valid point?

 

[DJ2]

All this is clear when you understand that Jesus breathes the Holy Spirit unto each soul as they receive Him as their Savior. There is no step transaction in salvation.

Salvation is all of God and none of man. If as you contend through incorrect exegesis of the scriptures that water baptism is essential then salvation is no longer of grace but of works of men.

So was Noah and his family saved by the water in the flood or by the ark? Who put Noah into the ark and then sealed it?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

1st Peter 3:21 clearly states that it is the water that is symbolized as baptism not the ark. It is this baptism that now saves you.

If you cannot see this, I suggest you tone down your esoteric knowledge a bit. It may be clouding your judgement.

 

[Bogadile]

Your post is simply an attempt to find a loophole in the Great Commission, much like a lawyer will attempt to find a clause in a contract to make null and void its enforcement. Baptism is required, it is not an option.

The blind man could have said, "well I am sure God would not expect me to walk to the Pool of Siloam and wash, I am blind."

Attempting to prove something is not needed because effort would be required is poor logic. The flow and form of the entire Bible is one of God offering His grace and man either rejects or attempts the grace.

Then provide an answer to someone in that situation. Is he lost because there is no MAN around to baptize him?

Answer yes or no. YES or NO. No dancing around the subject or playing word games.

 

[notuptome]

1st Peter 3:21 clearly states that it is the water that is symbolized as baptism not the ark. It is this baptism that now saves you.

If you cannot see this, I suggest you tone down your esoteric knowledge a bit. It may be clouding your judgement.

That was not the question. I asked if Noah was saved by the water as you would imply through water baptism or by the ark which symbolizes Christ.

Verse 21 says that water is the answer of a good conscience toward God. It does not say salvation is dependent upon water. In fact it is quite easily seen that the water of the flood washed away the world.

1 Peter 3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 ¶ The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

The flow and form of the Bible has been one of God offering His grace and man either rejecting it or accepting it. If you truly have read the Bible you should be able to see this common theme. The Bible does not present a pattern of God simply saving mankind without any response from us.

Adam and Eve were allowed to stay in the garden as long as they stayed in His good graces. Once they refused to obey the simple command of not eating of the tree they lost that grace. This model has been followed throughout the scriptures.

God has offered mankind different paths to take, it is our choice to accept the path of grace or doom. Do not attempt to gloss over this most important matter. Many people will find themselves without their wedding clothes, confused as to why others are properly clothed.

Call it a "work" if you wish but not accepting the grace of God on His terms will lead many to their destruction.

Cain insisted that God accept his offering but God would only accept the blood offering of Able. Water baptism is a work of man. Holy Spirit baptism is of God and is how God has chosen to saved and seal those who believe and receive His word unto eternal life in Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[hornetguy]

That was not the question. I asked if Noah was saved by the water as you would imply through water baptism or by the ark which symbolizes Christ.

Verse 21 says that water is the answer of a good conscience toward God. It does not say salvation is dependent upon water. In fact it is quite easily seen that the water of the flood washed away the world.

1 Peter 3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 ¶ The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You are trying to mince words and parse for meanings that are not there.... what saved Noah? The ark? Or the flood.. the water? What represents what?

It appears to me that Peter was saying that Noah and family were saved by an act of water.... the water was cleansing the earth of trash, and Noah and family were saved. It was a water event.

Likewise, a water event now plays a role in OUR salvation... not that it physically washes away sins, the filth of the flesh, but this water event is our appeal to God for a clear conscience.... a cleansing of our conscience... and it's available because of Jesus' resurrection. Otherwise, the baptism would be just a "dunking".

 

[hornetguy]

Then provide an answer to someone in that situation. Is he lost because there is no MAN around to baptize him?

Answer yes or no. YES or NO. No dancing around the subject or playing word games.

That decision is not ours to make.

That is up to God.

It is up to us to obey God's commands...

 

[DJ2]

That was not the question. I asked if Noah was saved by the water as you would imply through water baptism or by the ark which symbolizes Christ.

Verse 21 says that water is the answer of a good conscience toward God. It does not say salvation is dependent upon water. In fact it is quite easily seen that the water of the flood washed away the world.

1 Peter 3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 ¶ The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Noah was saved by the water that destroyed the world. Their world was corrupt and was a threat to him and his family. The water removed the corruption of the world, hence saving Noah. This is rather obvious. Why can you not see this?

If Peter is simply trying to tell us that Noah was saved by the ark, why write it in such a bizarre way or even point out such a simple thing as this?

 

[hornetguy]

Water baptism is a work of man.

Again.... you are not arguing with me... you are arguing with Jesus, and all the apostles and disciples, up until Martin Luther.

I prefer NOT arguing with Jesus.

 

[DJ2]

Then provide an answer to someone in that situation. Is he lost because there is no MAN around to baptize him?

Answer yes or no. YES or NO. No dancing around the subject or playing word games.

Hornetguy beat me to the punch. Read post #276.

 

[Bogadile]

That decision is not ours to make.

That is up to God.

It is up to us to obey God's commands...

See. This is the problem, this is a complete non-answer. I said yes or no, no word games because I knew this was coming. I was thinking in my mind already to write out exactly what you just did. It is always the same dance.

Mat 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;