REFORMED?

[followjesus]

Yes , but that is begging the question; because it depends on your doctrine of election which we are debating.

John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
Gods Word quickens believers

Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.<<<<<<<<<< thats what transforms us inwardly because we believe.

election happens Here in Christ.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him ( The Word) was life; and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.....

The Light is Gods Word....
v11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


those who receive The Word have the power in that word to become Children of God. We are chosen By Gods Word, we are quickened By Gods Word, will Live by the Word of God. in fact all things were created By Gods Word, "God said Let there Be Light, and Light shined forth"

Those who accept Jesus Christ are elected already, its up to us to show up at the wedding banquet on time, God does wuicken Whom He wills, He is not however arbitrarily quickening One and Not another. He has offered His Word to all the earth and His Word quickens By Faith, and even Faith comes through the Word. Our "new Birth by the Word of truth" Gods Word is everthing.


matthew 4:4 "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.


when God speaks Worlds are made, Heavens are shaken, the stars are set in place, and By His word they will fall, By His Word Light shines, Life comes to the dead.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Hell is the consequence of sin. God doesn't want people to go there; that's why He took the penalty for sin upon Himself.

The only way anyone goes to Hell is by rejecting Jesus' provision for their sin(s).

Again, will God loves those He cast headlong into a eternal gehenna?

 

[SovereignGrace]

The only way anyone goes to Hell is by rejecting Jesus' provision for their sin(s).

Wrong! Those who go to hell go there because they were unregenerate sinners. Many died never hearing the gospel, never knowing the Christ existed and will reside in hell for eternity.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yes I understand that we are fallen in Adam.

Great!! So do I. An accord. Hallelujah!

I understand that God is sovereign because no one has authority over God

See above quote of mine.

What I cannot understand is how in your view God chooses His elect?

God didn't give us those details into who He chose those whom He chose. None of His elect have an 'elect' sign on their forehead of the back of their right hand, and that's why we are to preach the gospel in all nations and to all ppl. But we know that those He chose, He did from before the creation of the world.[Ephesians 1:4] And we know why He chose those He chose from before the creation of the world having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.[Ephesians 1:11b]

And since He does it all, meaning He in His sovereignty chooses certain people to redemption, then why does He not just choose everyone?

In your schema, why doesn't God just save everybody? You have the same unanswerable question we have here. Why doesn't He save everybody? He has chosen to save some and leave the rest to their own devices, and if He deemed that acceptable in His sight, I am not going to question it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I suspect we believe the same thing, but it was the delivery I disagree with. The cross didn't save me. Jesus on that cross did. Right?

Might sound nitpicky, but I was raised Catholic and was taught literally it was the cross. (And, to be clear, that's not even Catholic doctrine, but for some reasons nuns and priest aren't taught doctrine, so they make up their own, too.)

The reason why I say the cross was because it was prophesied that He would die that way, and we are saved by His death, burial and resurrection.

 

[SovereignGrace]

On that cross!

Even I think forgiveness is conditional. But Jesus met the conditions to forgive us.

Oh, I agree with you my Sister. But, I meant if there are conditions we have to meet ourselves, then it becomes merit and not grace.

 

[SovereignGrace]

it's kind of like trying to play a game of checkers with someone who has no idea how to play the game.

Not even close. We're playing chess whilst they're playing checkers.

 

[SovereignGrace]

If your child/parent was in a burning building and didn't want to get out, would you say, "Oh, well. Their choice. Not up to me to do anything about it?" Or would you try to save him/her anyway?

If they were to remain consistent with their views, they would call out to them, send messengers to plead with them, but ultimately allow them to burn up if they rejected all those attempts to have them come out of that burning building.

But hey...they did all they could do, they just wouldn't do their part and exercise their 'free will' and allow the rescuers to rescue them.

 

[MarcR]

Again, will God loves those He cast headlong into a eternal gehenna?

That is unanswerable from my perspective because I believe God doesn't want people in Hell.

I believe that people who reject Jesus' sacrifice on their behalf consign THEMSELVES to Hell.

 

[SovereignGrace]

That is unanswerable from my perspective because I believe God doesn't want people in Hell.

Does God love Satan, the one who fell from heaven? I think you're avoiding the obvious answers here.

I believe that people who reject Jesus' sacrifice on their behalf consign THEMSELVES to Hell.

Wrong! Ppl are already condemned from birth. They were condemned in Adam. Only the Christ can rescue them from this fate.

 

[MarcR]

Does God love Satan, the one who fell from heaven? I think you're avoiding the obvious answers here.



Wrong! Ppl are already condemned from birth. They were condemned in Adam. Only the Christ can rescue them from this fate.

Non sequiter! Satan is not and never was a person in the sense of human being.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Non sequiter! Satan is not and never was a person in the sense of human being.

Brother, please stop being obtuse with me. You said this...

That is unanswerable from my perspective because I believe God doesn't want people in Hell.

Let me answer this for you since you don't want to.

God does hate ppl. To deny it is to flat out deny a biblical truth. God hated Esau, as it is averred in Romans 9:13. Now, ppl quickly deflect and say it means to 'love a little less'. So if that's true, then God loves Satan a little less than He does us. He loves the wicked a little less than He does the righteous. He loves the lost a little less than He does the found. That's ridiculous!! Then they double down and say He hates the sin but loves that sinner. That looks really good as a sticker on a bumper, but is a falsehood. You can not separate the sin from the sinner, and neither does God. As Brother Paul Washer said, "God casts sinners and not just their sin into hell."

We can see verses such as The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity.[Psalm 5:5] It says He hates all who do iniquity, and not just the iniquity. Then there's There are six things which the LORD hates, Yes, even which are an abomination to Him: Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood, A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil, A false witness who utters lies, And one who spreads strife among brothers.[Proverbs 6:16-19] We can see that in this three verse passage it says He hates a false witness, meaning He hates liars, and not just their lies, and ONE(a person) who spreads strife among Brothers. Again, God hates ppl, and not just ppl's sins.

Then God's wrath is over the disobedient, per John 3:36. Then there's the objects(vessels) of God's wrath in Romans 9, too. But I guess God can have wrath on ppl w/o hating them.

 

[SovereignGrace]

That is unanswerable from my perspective because I believe God doesn't want people in Hell.

Well, if God did not intend for ppl to be punished for their wickedness, He would not have made hell. God hates sin so much that He will destroy those who commit it for an eternity in an eternal gehenna.

God is not a monster, but He will not tolerate sin at all. That's why He made hell. To cast Satan, his minions, and those who worship him and not God for eternity into it.

 

[garee]

Non sequiter! Satan is not and never was a person in the sense of human being.

God never was a person in the sense of a human being. Both are spirits without form that need form to carry out their deception (Satan) as the things of men or correction.(God) the things of God

Perfect example of the antichrist(singlar) Satan working in one of the many antichrists, as the things of men .

Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.Mat 16:22

Same motive of operation different creator as that seen.(the lust of the eye produced the pride of this life)

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

 

[MarcR]

Well, if God did not intend for ppl to be punished for their wickedness, He would not have made hell. God hates sin so much that He will destroy those who commit it for an eternity in an eternal gehenna.

God is not a monster, but He will not tolerate sin at all. That's why He made hell. To cast Satan, his minions, and those who worship him and not God for eternity into it.

We disagree. I believe that God made Hell for Satan and his angels. I believe God is indeed willing that no man should perish; and has done all he could do, without preempting love, to make it possible for all men (and women) to avoid it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

We disagree. I believe that God made Hell for Satan and his angels. I believe God is indeed willing that no man should perish; and has done all he could do, without preempting love, to make it possible for all men (and women) to avoid it.

God is not willing any perish, but many more will than don't.

God doesn't want ppl in hell(I'll further explain this in this post), but many more go there than don't.

Who's God here? God wants a lot of things that He can't do anything about. Has He all of a sudden became anemic?

***I agree that God doesn't want them there in that He forces them to go, but His hatred of the wicked has him allocating those who will never submit to Him to go there.

 

[MarcR]

God is not willing any perish, but many more will than don't.

God doesn't want ppl in hell(I'll further explain this in this post), but many more go there than don't.

Who's God here? God wants a lot of things that He can't do anything about. Has He all of a sudden became anemic?

***I agree that God doesn't want them there in that He forces them to go, but His hatred of the wicked has him allocating those who will never submit to Him to go there.

We have both stated our beliefs and we each understand each other's point of view. Since neither of us is likely to adopt the other's position, what is the point of continuing this?

 

[SovereignGrace]

That is unanswerable from my perspective because I believe God doesn't want people in Hell.

No wonder ppl this day are as wicked as they are. There's no fear of God in them. If a lost person comes up to someone and asks them does God hate them, they'll quickly say "No, God is a God of love who can not hate ppl. He hates their sin, but loves them. When they sin, they really break His heart." That's a lie straight from the pits of hell. Here's what should be said to that lost person when they ask the question does God hate them..."If you're lost, if you're outside the Christ, yes He does. God says in Psalm 5:5 He hates all those who do iniquity. In Proverbs 6:16-19, there are seven things God hates, and that includes liars and those who spread strife among brothers. Then it says in John 3:36, His wrath is upon those who are disobedient. When Satan fell, God made a fiery hell for him and those who fell with him. Those who die lost will go there with them, as God has no toleration for sin. Sin doesn't break His heart my friend, but is an affront to Him, is a stench in His nostrils, and He will not tolerate it for one second. Please, turn to God and seek His mercy before its too late."

Now, which witness will cause the lost person to repent? I say the second, because it shows, biblically, how much God hates sin and sinners.

 

[SovereignGrace]

We have both stated our beliefs and we each understand each other's point of view. Since neither of us is likely to adopt the other's position, what is the point of continuing this?

Showing others how wrong your side of this debate is. You say God doesn't hate ppl, the bible says He does. I want ppl to see both sides of this most important debate.

 

[MarcR]

Showing others how wrong your side of this debate is. You say God doesn't hate ppl, the bible says He does. I want ppl to see both sides of this most important debate.

I agree that is why I have continued till now; but now both sides are as clearly presented as they are likely to be and this is going in circles.