Not By Works

[TruthTalk]

The Grace plus works people here are "mixing together" our Justification and Sanctification.

Justification; God's Grace plus nothing.

Sanctification; workout your salvation with fear and trembling.

No "Hyper Grace" here at all. It is the only faulty and misguided argument they have.

Now go cut your neighbors lawn.

 

[VCO]

This diagram is the substitutional theological view of faith.
Did Christ die in our place?
Do we have Christ's righteousness and our sin was born by Him?
Was it this that gives us forgiveness?

Christ died because of the sin of the pharisees and law givers. They decided He was guilty
and needed to die. Jesus was innocent and law abiding, but threatened their authority and
power in a national way. They knew a movement that changed the role of the temple, would
restructure the nation. If Jesus is the Messiah, and the priests and high priests are no longer
required, what role is there for them? They knew their evil, and knew Jesus would expose it
all, so rather than repent they wanted a way to destroy Him and stay as they were.

God took all this sin, accepted their punishment, death, and forgave them, rising from the dead.
So He became the source of ultimate forgiveness through this one act. If we identify with the
hypocracy of the pharisee and teachers of the law, understanding we are as guilty as them,
then we also receive the forgiveness Jesus gave in response.

But this whole process is confession of our sin, repentance, desiring to walk in love and doing
the right things, knowing through the cross we have forgiveness and cleansing for our sins,
and by having faith in Christ to deliver this, that brings us freedom.
Realising this historically, the brutal reality of the players, how they argued, what they
wanted transforms us, because we see God and His terms for acceptance in salvation.

We are deemed righteous because we are washed clean of our sins. The term is purified,
cleansed, made Holy.

Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus.
Acts 3:19-20L

The problem with the theory as shown in the diagrams, is it is a theory or language of legal
terminology. What we are in Christ is new creations, because we have met Jesus, and know
His love and forgiveness through the cross.

As approximations go the language works, except it leads to extremes, and religious language
and behaviour which is founded on insecurity and knowing ideas, rather than walking in love
and relationship.

So the response to questions of faith, become long lists of theological positions, which are
good in their place, but one to one, as brothers in the Lord, we just need to say,
Praise the Lord.

Thankyou my friend for bringing out these issues and miss-understandings, for by talking
through this we grow in Him. Amen.

I SURE HOPE YOU DID NOT MEAN THAT THE WAY YOU SAID IT.

I APPEARS TO ME, THAT BY THE WAY YOU SAID THOSE ABOVE QUESTIONS THAT I CHANGED TO RED, THAT YOU MAY BE IMPLYING THAT THE ANSWER TO ALL THREE OF THOSE QUESTIONS IS "NO". IF YOU OR ANYONE ELSE THINKS THE IMPLIED ANSWER TO THOSE QUESTIONS IS "NO", it is HERESY.

Did Christ die in our place? YES!
Do we INHERIT Christ's righteousness and our sin was born by Him? YES!
Was it this that gives us forgiveness? YES!

I think that CHART posted by SovereignGrace was an OUTSTANDING representation of the TRUTH.

Romans 5:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that
while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Much more then, having now been justified by His blood,
we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if while we were enemies
we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son,
much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Romans 3:22-27 (NRSV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God;
[SUP]24 [/SUP] they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
[SUP]25 [/SUP] whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed;
[SUP]26 [/SUP] it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies the one who has faith in Jesus.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] Then what becomes of boasting? It is excluded. By what law? By that of works? No, but by the law of faith.

Romans 5:17-18 (HCSB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Since by the one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive the overflow of grace and the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] So then, as through one trespass there is condemnation for everyone, so also through one righteous act there is life-giving justification for everyone.

Philippians 3:9 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own from the law, but one that is through faith in Christ—the righteousness from God based on faith.

1 Peter 2:24 (GW)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Christ carried our sins in his body on the cross so that freed from our sins, we could live a life that has God's approval. His wounds have healed you.

1 John 3:16 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] This is how we have come to know love: He laid down His life for us. We should also lay down our lives for our brothers.

John 10:17-18 (ESV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

Matthew 26:28 (HCSB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] For this is My blood ⌊that establishes⌋ the covenant; it is shed for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Ephesians 1:7 (HCSB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] We have redemption in Him through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace


Colossians 1:13-14 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.


So please tell me your answers to those questions. Did I misunderstand what you were implying?

 

[TruthTalk]

This is correct theology:

Mixing Justification, what God does -- with Sanctification, what we do, is wrong.

Hidden beneath the Grace plus works doctrine is; you can lose your salvation. This is a false doctrine, eternal salvation is eternal.

Our Sanctification is what we do after we are saved, baptism, bible study, praying, giving, helping your neighbor.

The Grace plus works people also say that you can lose your salvation. If you could not lose your salvation there would be no need for there false doctrine. It is our Sanctification, (holy and set apart), that is what a believer does apart from working to keep yourself saved. There is no conflict with God's Grace plus nothing, and there is no, "Hyper Grace" here, none.

 

[BillG]

I remember Robert Tilton on TV bragging he was going to buy a big tent, and make himself RICH. He did, and after his TV ministry became huge, George Bush said he would put him behind bars the first chance he got, and Tilton bragged again, "Go ahead try, I got lawyers that keep me just this side of crossing that line." Pure religious Con-Artist.

Jim Baker is back on TV, and he had a guy on there recently tooting his horn that he had computed that the Rapture may be 9-23-17; yesterday. I HOPE THEY ARE OUT OF BUSINESS FOR GOOD THIS TIME.

A few months ago, I changed the channel and found Peter Popoff is back on TV, sounding like he did before, begging for money. He was the one that got caught with an FM transmitter in his ear and his wife was in the audience talking to people with a hidden FM microphone on her, and Peter would claim WORD OF KNOWLEDGE from God and call out the people, and WOW the crowd.

And Jimmy Swaggert is back on TV TOO.

And Creflo Dollar is just totally shocking:

[video=youtube;AYxeTjrckl0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYxeTjrckl0[/video]

Yes there are a lot of FALSE TEACHERS in this world:


2 Corinthians 2:17 (CSBBible)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For we do not market the word of God for profit like so many. On the contrary, we speak with sincerity in Christ, as from God and before God.

Luke 12:15 (NRSV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And he said to them, "Take care! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; for one's life does not consist in the abundance of possessions."

1 Corinthians 5:11 (ESV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.


It totally amazes me how many people fall for these False Preachers that are so obviously full of GREED.

Just gonna dip my toe in the water here.

It doesn’t amaze me how many people how many people fall for false preachers full of greed. In fact it saddens me.
Such people are clever and what they do is hone in on the basic instinct of people.
Lets be honest we all have them.

Money, good job, power, being loved, good health and the list goes on.

Then what they do is say “If you want the above then give”
Give what?

MONEY, MULLA, GREENBACK.

The reason it saddens me is because a lot of believers just believe what they are told rather than read the bible.
They just assume the person preaching must be right.

I sometimes wonder how many believers have read the following

2 Peter 2:3
3 In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed.

Very clever indeed.
They know their teaching will appeal to the vulnerable, to the hurting, to the young babes in Jesus.

I would also say it can happen in reverse with respect to “If you behave and stop doing this then God will bless you”
That then takes the focus of God as such and puts the onus on us to earn his blessings rather than focusing on God and being who we are, that is his children.

What Father works deny his kids food, what Father would deny to meet our needs.

Matthew 7:9-11
9 “You parents—if your children ask for a loaf of bread, do you give them a stone instead?10 Or if they ask for a fish, do you give them a snake? Of course not!11 So if you sinful people know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give good gifts to those who ask him.

Our Father promises to meet our needs.

I am a name it and claim it guy.
I name and claim the promises of God.

He will meet what I need and not want I want.
If what I want does not meet up with what I think I need I ask him to align my will with his.

Paul prayed for healing and didn’t get it. He then realised Gods grace was sufficient and his grace he settled for.

We need to align our wants with Gods will, accept that and trust in him that as our Heavenly Father he will work HIS purpose in our lives.

Which to me is to conform us to the image of Jesus.

Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them. 29 For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You mean like when a preacher tells an unbeliever about the grace of God and what they must do to get it? How does grace make it so that we do not have to do the 'work' of believing?




'Have enough faith' and 'believe on the Lord Jesus Christ' are exactly equivalent of each other. But you seem to be making a distinction between the two.


The thief on the cross was saved because he did something--he believed in Christ. But if he continues to do that believing he is now somehow trying to earn his own salvation? That doesn't even make sense. It's an absurd doctrine. The exact same believing, after being saved through that believing, suddenly becomes a work of the law that can't justify. That's weird. But I know that is what the church believes today.


That's exactly what we're saying to the 'faith alone' (as James describes that) mentality in the church today. A confession of faith that has no works attached can not save. Only the faith that can be seen in what it does is the faith that can justify a person apart from their works.

"...show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”" (James 2:18 NASB)

The church today has no problem with God's grace in forgiving our sin, but they fail miserably at understanding and defending the same grace of God that delivers us from that sin. That's what Jens was getting at about this unhealthy focus on only one aspect of the cross: A narrow incomplete aspect of the cross that can not save, because it does not embrace the whole grace of God that also delivers out of sin. The forgiveness of sin is signified in a person by their good works:


47“For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.” (Luke 7:47).

The gospel that only forgives sin, but which does not also result in a new life is a false gospel. And the preachers of that gospel are evidenced by their fruit. They get quite angry and hateful and not so gentle, lol, when you remind the church about the other half of God's grace that their gospel leaves out--the grace of deliverance from sin. Oh, yeah, they give it some lip service, but they are quick to condemn anyone who actually believes one can be delivered from the bondage of sin so as to be a 4th type of soil that Jesus talked about. But they are quick to insist that you can not condemn the 3rd type of soil.

Wow! What have we come to, church? We condemn those who live righteously and we defend those who do not. We are indeed in the last days of the church on earth. We are witnessing the great falling away.

Its all about what phart does or doesn't do. If phart does it, he remains saved. If phart doesn't do it, phart becomes lost again. Its phart's permormance based salvation, and phart stinks.

 

[preacher4truth]

Putting on my sarcasm and impersonation hat here:

"How dare you post a video making fun of others in the body of Christ! (prosperity preachers). Doing this is slander, and unloving! "Put away all slander and malice... 1 Peter 2:1". I know that preacher and have seen him before and have been to his church and he is filled with love for God. He is preaching the truth!!! We are to love one another. God wants us to be rich and never be sick. You're a heresy hunter and slander those you disagree with!"

Sound familiar? Glad that nonsense is gone.

 

[TruthTalk]

"Its all about phart and phart stinks."

We will be handing out awards for the; "best phrase of the Year" beginning on New Years Day, so far SovereignGrace is in the lead.

 

[SovereignGrace]

We will be handing out awards for the; "best phrase of the Year" beginning on New Years Day, so far SovereignGrace is in the lead.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Putting on my sarcasm and impersonation hat here:

"How dare you post a video making fun of others in the body of Christ! (prosperity preachers). Doing this is slander, and unloving! "Put away all slander and malice... 1 Peter 2:1". I know that preacher and have seen him before and have been to his church and he is filled with love for God. He is preaching the truth!!! We are to love one another. God wants us to be rich and never be sick. You're a heresy hunter and slander those you disagree with!"

Sound familiar? Glad that nonsense is gone.

He's a well traveled man it seems. Apparently he's been to everyone's church.

 

[PeterJens]

I SURE HOPE YOU DID NOT MEAN THAT THE WAY YOU SAID IT.

I APPEARS TO ME, THAT BY THE WAY YOU SAID THOSE ABOVE QUESTIONS THAT I CHANGED TO RED, THAT YOU MAY BE IMPLYING THAT THE ANSWER TO ALL THREE OF THOSE QUESTIONS IS "NO". IF YOU OR ANYONE ELSE THINKS THE IMPLIED ANSWER TO THOSE QUESTIONS IS "NO", it is HERESY.

Did Christ die in our place? YES!
Do we INHERIT Christ's righteousness and our sin was born by Him? YES!
Was it this that gives us forgiveness? YES!

I think that CHART posted by SovereignGrace was an OUTSTANDING representation of the TRUTH.

Romans 5:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that
while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Much more then, having now been justified by His blood,
we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if while we were enemies
we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son,
much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Romans 3:22-27 (NRSV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God;
[SUP]24 [/SUP] they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
[SUP]25 [/SUP] whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed;
[SUP]26 [/SUP] it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies the one who has faith in Jesus.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] Then what becomes of boasting? It is excluded. By what law? By that of works? No, but by the law of faith.

Romans 5:17-18 (HCSB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Since by the one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive the overflow of grace and the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] So then, as through one trespass there is condemnation for everyone, so also through one righteous act there is life-giving justification for everyone.

Philippians 3:9 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own from the law, but one that is through faith in Christ—the righteousness from God based on faith.

1 Peter 2:24 (GW)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Christ carried our sins in his body on the cross so that freed from our sins, we could live a life that has God's approval. His wounds have healed you.

1 John 3:16 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] This is how we have come to know love: He laid down His life for us. We should also lay down our lives for our brothers.

John 10:17-18 (ESV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

Matthew 26:28 (HCSB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] For this is My blood ⌊that establishes⌋ the covenant; it is shed for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Ephesians 1:7 (HCSB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] We have redemption in Him through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace


Colossians 1:13-14 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.


So please tell me your answers to those questions. Did I misunderstand what you were implying?

I know your model. But how scriptural is it? Your believe the righteousness we are given is
specifically Christs, not we are reconned righteous because of our faith?

Now I do not mind which, because God is saying which is true, and I am righteous in Gods eyes both ways.
So I would like one verse that says I have Christs righteousness and not I am righteous because of faith.

There is quite a difference, and you are claiming your view alone is right, taught be God, so where in
scripture?

Taking my sin, Amen Jesus did that. Through His death which I deserved, He died so I do not have to.
Again taking my place, seems too far, too judicial, too theoretical, an idea of man to square a circle.
I would love a scripture that actually shows this. But rather Jesus died so we can be forgiven.

If one is teaching on salvation it must be right. So please teach from scripture and not theory.

 

[TruthTalk]

Did Christ die in our place? YES!
Do we INHERIT Christ's righteousness and our sin was born by Him? YES!
Was it this that gives us forgiveness? YES!

I think that CHART posted by SovereignGrace was an OUTSTANDING representation of the TRUTH.

Yes VCO this is an excellent representation of the Truth.

 

[WineRose]

We will be handing out awards for the; "best phrase of the Year" beginning on New Years Day, so far SovereignGrace is in the lead.

Thanks for giving me a new thread idea...lol.

 

[TruthTalk]

Thanks for giving me a new thread idea...lol.

You're welcome

 

[PeterJens]

A strange idea seems to appear. Reading Gods word and hearing from Him means if you do not
agree on an emphasis, you must be a Pharisee, a worker for salvation.

Is it not possible what churches miss are small things, just enough to dull the message, push things
a little off, just enough so it goes hazy. Are we there, have we got it right, fully? If not then there
is room to grow and see clearer. And some things are obviously off but where we are not sure.

What I discover most clearly is certainty is often our biggest weakness instead of trust, exploration
and love.

Take the idea of original sin. Sounds simple, but it is not in scripture, but it is implied.
This vacuum has meant being righteous walking in the Spirit is impossible.

Or the biggest argument, if we could walk righteously we would not need God.
But the argument is flawed. Being righteous is walking with God, without God that
separation is rebellion and sin. Love ultimately has its source in the creator, it
withers and dies without Him.

This rule or law is Gods revelation, not intellectually accepted, it is His declaration.
In Christ we discover this, rather than logically see it. It is probably why the
pure logic faith idea fails, and is often very dry.

Today I wondered why certain insights through history might not be revealed, and understood
it does not matter. Each believer is unique and brings their heart, and shares as much as they
have, and that is enough. If there is more, it will show, if not amen.

God gives us the ministry to share out of love, He does not demand it, so we do as we decide.
And He uses it to His glory, Amen. His will is expressed through His people. Halleluyah

 

[PeterJens]

I am not sure sometimes if our models help or hinder.
Our life in Christ is what matters.

Our faith rests on a living faith and relationship. It is obvious though we teach this it means different
things to different believers. Some have been prepared to call me satanic, or listening to demons.
This is heavy, if it is because I share scripture that teaches a good point, but the context needs work.
It makes me think there are many insecure believers who shoot off words without thinking or
praying. Gods word must be respected above all as it is eternal.

So it would appear some prefer human teachers over God! Not a good starting place. Remember
I am not right, God is, I only raise points because in my heart Gods says, what about this. And I
know it always leads somewhere good, praise the Lord.

Who do we trust? So let His word dwell in you richly.

 

[PeterJens]

By the way guys, I want to know foundations now more than ever, because so
many are not worked through and have led to sin and problems.

Are we knowable? Is there certainty, or do we just grow to the size our hearts
have reached? I would hope my friends as Paul says we can grasp the
awesomeness of Gods heart, and be moved like He is moved. Amen.

 

[VCO]

Putting on my sarcasm and impersonation hat here:

"How dare you post a video making fun of others in the body of Christ! (prosperity preachers). Doing this is slander, and unloving! "Put away all slander and malice... 1 Peter 2:1". I know that preacher and have seen him before and have been to his church and he is filled with love for God. He is preaching the truth!!! We are to love one another. God wants us to be rich and never be sick. You're a heresy hunter and slander those you disagree with!"

Sound familiar? Glad that nonsense is gone.

I examined their FRUIT, and it was ROTTEN.


Matthew 7:15-23 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
[SUP]17 [/SUP] In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] A good tree can’t produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’


2 Peter 2:1-3 (ESV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

Proverbs 1:19 (GWT)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] This is what happens to everyonewho is greedy for unjust gain. Greed takes away his life.


Isaiah 57:17 (GWT)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] I was angry because of their sinful greed, so I punished them, hid {from them}, and remained angry. But they continued to be sinful.


Habakkuk 2:5 (ESV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] “Moreover, wine is a traitor, an arrogant man who is never at rest. His greed is as wide as Sheol; like death he has never enough. He gathers for himself all nations and collects as his own all peoples.”


Matthew 23:25 (CSBBible)
[SUP]25[/SUP] "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.





Romans 1:29 (CSBBible)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] They are filled with all unrighteousness, evil, greed, and wickedness. They are full of envy, murder, quarrels, deceit, and malice. They are gossips,

Ephesians 5:1-3 (CSBBible)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Therefore, be imitators of God, as dearly loved children,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] and walk in love, as Christ also loved us and gave himself for us, a sacrificial and fragrant offering to God.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] But sexual immorality and any impurity or greed should not even be heard of among you, as is proper for saints.

Colossians 3:5 (CSBBible)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Therefore, put to death what belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desire, and greed, which is idolatry.


Isaiah 5:20 (ESV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!


Hebrews 5:14 (NKJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


2 Corinthians 2:17 (NCV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] We do not sell the word of God for a profit as many other people do. But in Christ we speak the truth before God, as messengers of God.


NOW what kind of FRUIT DO YOU THINK GREED IS?



Paul Named the NAMES of FALSE TEACHERS of His Day, and so I Follow His Example:

1 Corinthians 4:16 (NCV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] so I beg you, please follow my example.

 

[VCO]

I know your model. But how scriptural is it? Your believe the righteousness we are given is
specifically Christs, not we are reconned righteous because of our faith?

Now I do not mind which, because God is saying which is true, and I am righteous in Gods eyes both ways.
So I would like one verse that says I have Christs righteousness and not I am righteous because of faith.

There is quite a difference, and you are claiming your view alone is right, taught be God, so where in
scripture?

Taking my sin, Amen Jesus did that. Through His death which I deserved, He died so I do not have to.
Again taking my place, seems too far, too judicial, too theoretical, an idea of man to square a circle.
I would love a scripture that actually shows this. But rather Jesus died so we can be forgiven.

If one is teaching on salvation it must be right. So please teach from scripture and not theory.

THIS SCRIPTURAL, may I suggest you humble yourself and repent:

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 (NASB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] so that no man may boast before God.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
[SUP]31 [/SUP] so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."


Just so you know, spreading false doctrine is BAD FRUIT.

 

[PeterJens]

Vco - g7 and his group used to defend a lot of these preachers. They are not here now.

So I agree with your condemnation of certain groups for specific reasons.
It would be helpful which are your reasons.

Mine are greed as in money is evil and sin, and they encourage this and bind their followers
into a giving for reward cycle like the lottery. One testimony I read of a guy coming out of this
still gave believing he might get back 1000 fold, even when he knew it was fake. It is so
addictive. Or believing God will give you your worldly dreams if you believe hard enough.
It gets close to idolatry. But also their ethic to criticise is sin, so you should leave alone Gods
anointed, because if they were not they would not be so wealthy. More like robbers of the
naive using God to cash fake cheques He will never honour.

What amazed me is these believers who defended these guys called me evil.
So my friend 2 years of this makes one wonder who has a pure heart?

You sound like you do, so God bless you brother.

 

[PHart]

The Grace plus works people here are "mixing together" our Justification and Sanctification.

I won't speak for the 'workers for' people in this forum (whoever they are) but for me justification and sanctification go together like this:

"14Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. " (Hebrews 12:14 NIV)

You won't see the Lord without sanctification any more than you will without justification. That's not a works gospel. That's what the Bible says. The problem is, so many people in the church are sure their justification absent the evidence of sanctification is somehow a justification that will save them on the Day of Salvation. I know you folks will agree that genuinely born again people must have sanctification as the necessary outcome of being born again, but for some reason when I say that all you folks hear is 'works gospel'.

Sanctification; workout your salvation with fear and trembling.
[...]
Now go cut your neighbors lawn.

Unless your neighbor is disabled, I think it more meaningful to cut your own lawn: "Love does no wrong to a neighbor" (Romans 13:10 NASB).

Let's get church folk thinking about not being a pain to everyone around them, first. Then we'll talk about reaching out to others in need.