We choose Jesus or Jesus choose us

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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#21
Dependent creature cannot have FREE will, but must work with what is given to it. Its will can be free only in some small specific boundaries, not in any absolute sense.
Since humans -- by definition -- are limited to humanity, the issue of "absolute sense" does not arise. But within their fallen humanity, do human beings have free will? Absolutely. To say that they "cannot" have free will is to go against Scripture, since God presents moral and spiritual choices to men throughout the Word. Please note (John 3:18):

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

How could there be two results presented unless men had the free will to either believe or disbelieve?

Secondly, if God chose everybody, He would also save everybody. But He said that "many are called, few are chosen", not "all are chosen".
Another fallacy which some simply cannot discard. God has placed CONDITIONS on salvation -- repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21). Only those who meet these conditions are saved, and Universalism is not taught in the Bible. God desires the salvation of all, but only those who meet His conditions are saved.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#22
Since humans -- by definition -- are limited to humanity, the issue of "absolute sense" does not arise. But within their fallen humanity, do human beings have free will? Absolutely. To say that they "cannot" have free will is to go against Scripture, since God presents moral and spiritual choices to men throughout the Word. Please note (John 3:18):

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

How could there be two results presented unless men had the free will to either believe or disbelieve?
Your verse just says that who believes is not condemned and who does not believe is already condemned, because he does not believe.

I am not sure what you think it means for the issue of free will. It would be also very difficult to prove that faith is a choice of any kind, at all. Bible says its a gift and also logic/philosophy can tell us we cannot choose to believe, we just believe or not.

Another fallacy which some simply cannot discard. God has placed CONDITIONS on salvation -- repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21). Only those who meet these conditions are saved, and Universalism is not taught in the Bible. God desires the salvation of all, but only those who meet His conditions are saved.
Bible says "Many are called, few are chosen." That simply means that not all are chosen. I do not know how I can see it other way.
 
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FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
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#23
Surprising that no one has posted these verses yet that clearly show Jesus choose us and not the other way around....

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. also...


John 15:19
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Pretty plain there as to who choose who...that said i'm still not a calvinist...mwahahaha...shalom.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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#24
Surprising that no one has posted these verses yet that clearly show Jesus choose us and not the other way around....

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. also...


John 15:19
19 [FONT=&]If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Pretty plain there as to who choose who...that said i'm still not a calvinist...mwahahaha...shalom.[/FONT]
I think these verses are about chsosing His apostles (Jesus called them to follow him), not about general election to salvation...
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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#25
John 3:16-17
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. (NKJV)

John 6:29


29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent. (NKJV)

The NLT renders is differently.

John 6:29
29 Jesus told them, “This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.”

To be honest I don’t know if I chose Jesus or he chose me.
There are bible verses that say “predestined”

The problem here is if we feel that a person has been predestined for salvation we can sit back, (not generally) but on certain occassions and just think “no point speaking the gospel to them because they won’t respond”

I have done that a couple of times and God pulled me up on it, “You don’t know who is going to respond, be the witness I have asked you to be”

A few days God placed me in a situation where I could respond to such a person.
3 times he asked me to go and offer to pray. I did on the 3rd time. This person was s fellow director, built up many a successful company and saved a few. Trust me this man did not suffer fools lightly.

So I plucked up my courage, closed the door behind me in his office.
Told him that God could work in his situation.
Asked him his things were going, then gulped and asked “Can I pray for you?
To my surprise he said yes

I prayed and when he finished he looked at me with tearful eyes.

”Bill how can I believe in a loving God who allowed a drunk driver kill my mother when I was 8 and leave a husband devestated until he died 40 years later”

My heart sank and I couldn’t answer it.

When I went for my coffee break at lunchtime I asked God what this was all about.

He said “Now you have an insight behind this man and now a focus for prayer for him”
Lesson learned.

2 years ago he was diagnosed with thyroid cancer, a rare type that could be treated but the operation was complex.

Guess who asked me to pray? Yes him, but not just him.

His sister sent out updates whilst he was off work, not only to me but to all his other friends as well. A group message.
I had met her a few times but I had never told her I was a Christian.

Every update she sent she ended it with “Bill will you please continue to pray for him?

So he had obviously told her about me and now approx 40 people on the list saw that last sentence.

Now he hasn’t responded to the gospel, nor his sister, but now approx 42 people know something of the gospel.

So as I said I don’t know the answer to the OP.
Its not something I try figure out.

I just figure that cause I don’t know I must keep doing and being the person God has asked me to be.
Pray for opportunities to come alongside, even if they seem beyond hope.

If they are willing to listen then we just might get to see behind the scenes of a person not willing to believe. Just like my co-director. Personal tragedy, that now as when I remeber I pray into.

Seeds sown.

When the disciples/apostles first went out I am sure they would have no idea who would be saved and who wouldn’t.
Whether God chose them or the other way around. They went about their business as ordained by God.
thank for you testimony Bill. I believe everybody predistinated to go to heaven. God is love, Adam and Eve predistanated stay in Eden, God is love not make a man and predistinated to hell. That why a lot of verse say about predistination. But He also predistaned a human have a free will. If a man refused to believe, do not blame God if he go to hell.

in the last judgement if He say depart from me, you not feed me when I am hungry. That man can not say, it is not my fault God, it is you fault God, because you do not give me a gift of faith, you do not love every body, you discriminate me.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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#26
Surprising that no one has posted these verses yet that clearly show Jesus choose us and not the other way around....

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. also...


John 15:19
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Pretty plain there as to who choose who...that said i'm still not a calvinist...mwahahaha...shalom.
Like when God choose Paul. Must be a reason why He choose Paul not other. He not choose on random.

He love every body but He just, not put every body to heaven.
 

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
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#27
I think these verses are about chsosing His apostles (Jesus called them to follow him), not about general election to salvation...
Then we can agree to disagree...how about these verses?

[FONT=&quot]10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Romans 8:28-30 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


Romans 9:11 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Romans 9:15-16 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:[/FONT]

Isaiah 46:10-11
 

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,125
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#28
Like when God choose Paul. Must be a reason why He choose Paul not other. He not choose on random.

He love every body but He just, not put every body to heaven.

I suppose I look at it differently because of my own situation. I know I did not choose Jesus but that He choose me. I can look back and see how He set me on a path that would lead to me being not only in the right place at the right time to hear His message but also had me broken enough to even consider His amazing grace.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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#29
I suppose I look at it differently because of my own situation. I know I did not choose Jesus but that He choose me. I can look back and see how He set me on a path that would lead to me being not only in the right place at the right time to hear His message but also had me broken enough to even consider His amazing grace.
I agree that it is like a farmer going through a field, finding the right crop at the right time
and picking us.

It is a wonder. There is nothing greater than to know we are in His hands.
He knows who are His and He calls them above anything else to His ways,
the ways of love and truth because that is their heart.

Many will come go this and that way, but His are always true. Amen.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#30
"Whosoever believeth" (John 3:16).. We are chosen after we demonstrate a desire to believe, just as the malefactor did at the cross.. I don't think God will choose those who deny Christ, but certainly reveals himself to those who come by faith. Its not God's desire that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9), but as Jesus told many that came to him; "Thy faith has made thee whole". Belief is a choice, faith is a choice, I don't believe God forces or a person to be faithful, but He knows the hearts of some like Paul, whom He predestinate's.
Where does the bible say faith is a choice? Book, chapter, & verse please.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#31
I believe everybody predistinated to go to heaven.
From theopedia...

Predestination


Predestination in its broadest conception is the doctrine that because God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and completely sovereign, he "from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass," (Westminster Confession). "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will" (Ephesians 1:11).

If God predestined everybody to go to heaven, everybody will end up in heaven.

You said your belief about predestination, and your belief about it is wrong.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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#32
Where does the bible say faith is a choice? Book, chapter, & verse please.
Faith is exercised when you do something because you have faith, and would not if you had
none. So faith is always a choice, the option is acting on it. The initial conviction seems
to be a gift. Many appear to confuse these two and think faith not acted upon is still faith
rather than just a delusion.
 

unobtrusive

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2017
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#33
Wich one is true, we choose Jesus or Jesus choose us?

The thief choose Jesus or Jesus choose the thief?
Both.
He loved (chose) us first, chose the world excluding no one. Then we are free to love (choose) Him in reciprocation. Before I was married, I chose several girls, and dated them. Only one accepted me to marry. Her choice toward me, because of my choice toward her. Evidently my character drew her to me, but in the end it was still her choice. If she had refused, it isn't because I didn't want her, it would have still been her choice.
 
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Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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#34
I suppose I look at it differently because of my own situation. I know I did not choose Jesus but that He choose me. I can look back and see how He set me on a path that would lead to me being not only in the right place at the right time to hear His message but also had me broken enough to even consider His amazing grace.
I agree, He choose every body include you, and you give positif respon, but not every body accept Him
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#35
Both.
He loved (chose) us first, chose the world excluding no one. Then we are free to love (choose) Him in reciprocation. Before I was married, I chose several girls, and dated them. Only one accepted me to marry. Her choice toward me, because of my choice toward her. Evidently my character drew her to me, but in the end it was still her choice. If she had refused, it isn't because I didn't want her, it would have still been her choice.
You're putting a western spin to biblical marriage that mars biblical marriage.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
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#37
From theopedia...

Predestination


Predestination in its broadest conception is the doctrine that because God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and completely sovereign, he "from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass," (Westminster Confession). "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will" (Ephesians 1:11).

If God predestined everybody to go to heaven, everybody will end up in heaven.

You said your belief about predestination, and your belief about it is wrong.
I believe God is love, God predestined who believe in Him go to heaven. Why God create Adam, I believe if Adam obey Him, He predestined stay at Eden and happy there. Loving God not predestined human go to hell.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
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#38
If God chose everybody, everybody's saved.
loving God not choose human go to hell, He choose every body that believe Jesus save. If a man choose not believe Jesus he go to hell of his choice.
 

kaijo

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2017
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#39
Wich one is true, we choose Jesus or Jesus choose us?

The thief choose Jesus or Jesus choose the thief?
You go for a "night out" on the Town.

Your at a bar...and "someone" catches your eye.

You Also catch the "eye" of that someone.

Many years later...the both of you are happily married with children.

So, who chose who? ^^
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#40
I believe God is love,
Agreed.

God predestined who believe in Him go to heaven.
But that doesn't include everybody, as you previously stated twice you believed God chose everybody. Which is it? Did He choose everybody or those who would believe? It can't be both.

Why God create Adam,
You asked this...

I believe if Adam obey Him,
Then answered it in the above.

He predestined stay at Eden and happy there.
Please decipher this for me.

Loving God not predestined human go to hell.
None on here has said He does. Adam fell, and the whole creation fell, being in Adam. Predestination has to do with heaven, not hell.