We choose Jesus or Jesus choose us

[SovereignGrace]

God love the world like John 3:16 say,

Please quit posting this verse. It does not further your purpose. We BELIEVE John 3:16!!! How many more times do we need to tell you this?!?!?!?!?!

He not hate some

The bible states something entirely different my Brother. God hated Esau,[Romans 9:13], He hates all those who commit iniquity[Psalm 5:5], He hates haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood(looks like He hates murderers), a heart that devises wicked plans, fled that run rapidly to do evil, a false witness who speaks lies(a person here), and those(again, actual ppl here)who spread strife amongst brothers.[Proverbs 6:16-19] He also has objects(vessels) of wrath, and God does not have wrath on the objects(vessels) of mercy, only the objects(vessels) of wrath).

and Deny acces to some,

And here you show you have ZERO clue to what we believe. We do not believe God denies access to anyone. However, none understand, none seek Him.[Psalm 14 & Romans 3] That is why He seeks us out. We were running from Him when He drew us to Himself.

force some to not believe.

Fallacy here, again. The dead can not believe and until you grasp this, you're theology will be an epic fail.

He love all but for salvation require to believe

Again, if we add one thing, regardless to how small it is, then its a works based gospel, a false gospel, another gospel, a dangerous gospel, which is no gospel at all...seeing gospel means 'good news'.

 

[SovereignGrace]

To me unbeliever able to hear what I tell them, than up to them to choose to accept or not.

Brother, this is purely emotion speaking and not the bible. Jesus said 'let those who have ears hear.'[Matthew 11:15 13:9, 13:43, Mark 4:9, 4:23, 7:16, Luke 8:8 & 14:35] Not everybody has ears to hear with.

You have taken the onus of God's salvation from God and placed it upon man. A huge no-no.

 

[Jackson123]

the thing is, jesus never said Believe in My Death, He said Believe in me, Believe My Word. if we believe what Jesus said that will save us because we will begin to obey Him, because we really do believe Him. Belief saves us, because Belief comes out in what we do, How we conduct Our selves, so when a believer sees something Like this

matthew 7 niv "“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock.

26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”


we have to believe jesus died and rose again yes, but He is saying Here that we need to believe His words and put them into practice......Believing does save us, but we have to believe what the Lord said to believe.

yep, we save If we believe in Him and believe in Him mean do the will of the Father.

 

[Jackson123]

Brother, this is purely emotion speaking and not the bible. Jesus said 'let those who have ears hear.'[Matthew 11:15 13:9, 13:43, Mark 4:9, 4:23, Mark 7:16, Luke 8:8 & 14:35] Not everybody has ears to hear with.

You have taken the onus of God's salvation from God and placed it upon man. A huge no-no.

Remember brother, God is love, there is unforgiven sin, and that is deifferent subject, but His love make It impossible for Him oN random make some people deaf and Deny some for salvation without good reason

 

[Nehemiah6]

Your verse just says that who believes is not condemned and who does not believe is already condemned, because he does not believe....I am not sure what you think it means for the issue of free will.

Well it has a direct bearing on freewill since John 3:17 says For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

If God was controlling the outcome, then it would say "shall be saved" because that is what God desires. But because sinners must freely choose to believe or disbelieve the Gospel, we have the next verse which tells us that only those who believe are not condemned. Since the Gospel must be preached to "every creature" God will not play favorites, and every sinner who hears the Gospel is both convicted and convinced by the Holy Spirit. But after having heard the Gospel and been convicted and convicted, the sinner must freely respond with repentance and faith, or disbelieve and be condemned. That does not imply that sinners are not repeatedly presented with the opportunity to believe. Because of God's grace, the Holy Spirit will speak to men several times to bring them to repentance.

It would be also very difficult to prove that faith is a choice of any kind, at all.

Quite the contrary. Just go through all the missionary journeys of Paul and see that while Paul earnestly desired the salvation of all the Jews (as did God), and preached in all the synagogues of the Roman Empire, unbelieving Jews made a deliberate choice to reject the Gospel message and reject Christ.

And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ. And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.(Acts 18:5,6).

Bible says its a gift and also logic/philosophy can tell us we cannot choose to believe, we just believe or not.

The Bible says that eternal life -- salvation -- is the gift of God. As to faith, it cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel) (Rom 10:17). Peter calls the Gospel the Word of God which becomes the seed out of which sinners are regenerated. So does James. And of course Romans 10 spells it out in detail. If faith were a gift selectively given to some, then God would be contradicting is own will, which is that NONE SHOULD PERISH, but that all should come to repentance (2 Per 3:9). Therefore He COMMANDS all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). Why would He do so unless He desires all men everywhere to be saved. And that is precisely what is stated in John 3:17.

Bible says "Many are called, few are chosen." That simply means that not all are chosen. I do not know how I can see it other way.

Exactly. The Gospel call and invitation goes to all, but not all respond as required, therefore they are not chosen to receive eternal life. Unless they respond with repentance and faith, they cannot be chosen.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Remember brother, God is love,

And where I have I stated otherwise? Yet, that's the sole attribute of God you're focused upon. God is also Just, Holy, Righteous. In all of these attributes, a punishment for breaking His laws is required. That's why understanding the cross is of utmost importance. When the Christ ingested the cup of God's wrath at Gethsamane, He ingested our sins down to the very dregs, the very bitterest portion of that cup. Once He ingested our sins, He stood before His Father as if He was the One who had sinned. God did not lessen the blows upon His own Son, either. That's why God is Just, Holy, and Righteous. Our own sins were imputed unto Him so that His righteousness could be imputed unto us. So, when He died, He propitiated the Father, and in this propitiation, it satisfied God's demand for the payment of sin. So, He also atoned for our sins. Now, if He atoned for everybody sins, then everybody is saved and on their way to heaven.

The definition for atonement is...

--the doctrine concerning the reconciliation of God and humankind, especially as accomplished through the life, suffering, and death of Christ.

So, the atonement brought with it reconciliation. Here's the definition of reconciliation...

--the restoration of friendly relations.

So, if Christ's atonement brought with it reconciliation, and reconciliation means to restore friendly relations, and He atoned for everybody w/o exception, and reconciled everybody w/o exception, then everybody w/o exception has been made God's friends again, and all go to heaven. You can not hold to a universal atonement and not hold to universalism and remain consistent in your theological belief.

there is unforgiven sin, and that is deifferent subject, but His love make It impossible for Him oN random make some people deaf and Deny some for salvation without good reason

So God just does thing willy-nilly now? Wow! You're all over the place in this thread with your beliefs.

 

[SovereignGrace]

yep, we save If we believe in Him and believe in Him mean do the will of the Father.

I posted this in another thread, and I think its pertinent here...

Let us appeal to the word and see what it has to say...

The hand of the LORD was upon me, and He brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me down in the middle of the valley; and it was full of bones.. He caused me to pass among them round about, and behold, there were very many on the surface of the valley; and lo, they were very dry.[Ezekiel 37:1,2] Here we see a valley of bones that were so far dead that the bones were pretty much sun-bleached. They had no hope of ever living again, if left to their fallen selves. There was no will they could exercise, no faith there to help them, either. They were helpless and hopeless.

He said to me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” And I answered, “O Lord GOD, You know.”[vs 4] Now, how could these bones live again in your schema? They have no will that they can exercise, neither is there any innate faith to save them. They were completely cut off from life.

Again He said to me, “Prophesy over these bones and say to them, ‘O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.’ Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones, ‘Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life. I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the LORD.’”[vss 4-6] Notice He told Exekiel to say 'hear the word of the LORD'. Wait!! Bones don't have ears to hear with! How can these dried up bones with no ears hear what Ezekiel said to them? Here is where God unilaterally moved upon them to bring them back to life. It was all of His doing, and none of theirs.


So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone. And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them, and flesh grew and skin covered them; but there was no breath in them. Then He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life.”’” So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army.[vss 7-10] This is a picture of how the gospel works. We are commanded to preach the gospel in all nations and to all ppl. Now, it is through the message God works to bring to life those who He wills to live. So, this OT vision that Ezekiel had tells us how it is God works to save His ppl from their sins.

As Jesus told those self-righteous scribes and Pharisees “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.[Matthew 23:27]

 

[SovereignGrace]

I believe you need to obey Him to save. Jesus say whosoever believe will save. The definition of obey is follow the guidance. So if you believe mean you obey. Is that mean help Jesus?

if obey mean help Jesus then do not obey Him to make you not help Him.

When we sin, we disobey Him. By using your logic in the above, we become lost again when we sin, seeing we need to obey to be saved. I am not denying obedience being necessary, but your application of it.

When Christ lived as a man on earth, He lived a life of perfect obedience unto His Father. He kept the Law perfectly. All that He was and is, has been imputed to us, the believers. All the saved now stand before God clothed in the Christ's righteousness and God sees us as if we had lived a perfect life of obedience, as He sees us in Christ.

Its the Christ's obedience that saves us, not our own.

You have a very poor view of the gospel my Brother. You have the onus upon man, not the Christ.

 

[Jackson123]

1. Please quit posting this verse. It does not further your purpose. We BELIEVE John 3:16!!! How many more times do we need to tell you this?!?!?!?!?!


2. The bible states something entirely different my Brother. God hated Esau,[Romans 9:13], He hates all those who commit iniquity[Psalm 5:5], He hates haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood(looks like He hates murderers), a heart that devises wicked plans, fled that run rapidly to do evil, a false witness who speaks lies(a person here), and those(again, actual ppl here)who spread strife amongst brothers.[Proverbs 6:16-19] He also has objects(vessels) of wrath, and God does not have wrath on the objects(vessels) of mercy, only the objects(vessels) of wrath).


3. And here you show you have ZERO clue to what we believe. We do not believe God denies access to anyone. However, none understand, none seek Him.[Psalm 14 & Romans 3] That is why He seeks us out. We were running from Him when He drew us to Himself.


3. Fallacy here, again. The dead can not believe and until you grasp this, you're theology will be an epic fail.


4. Again, if we add one thing, regardless to how small it is, then its a works based gospel, a false gospel, another gospel, a dangerous gospel, which is no gospel at all...seeing gospel means 'good news'.

1. I keep qouting John 3:16 to back up my believe that Jesus love the world mean Jesus love all. Jesus not hypocritical He instruct us to love our enemy. WHO is our enemy? One WHO hate us or God is our enemy. If He tell us to love our enemy, He must love His enemy or He is hypocrit.
And you keep believe He love some and hate some.

2. Let bible interprate bible my friend. There are thousand verse say God is love. So I believe God hate the bad character not human.

3. If so why Jesus instruct His follower to preach the gospel to all nation / unbeliever, anyway they not able to hear.

4. I do not add anything, God love the world is original, I am not add anything, that why I keep repeat this verse, because you keep attack this verse.

 

[Jackson123]

When we sin, we disobey Him. By using your logic in the above, we become lost again when we sin, seeing we need to obey to be saved. I am not denying obedience being necessary, but your application of it.

When Christ lived as a man on earth, He lived a life of perfect obedience unto His Father. He kept the Law perfectly. All that He was and is, has been imputed to us, the believers. All the saved now stand before God clothed in the Christ's righteousness and God sees us as if we had lived a perfect life of obedience, as He sees us in Christ.

Its the Christ's obedience that saves us, not our own.

You have a very poor view of the gospel my Brother. You have the onus upon man, not the Christ.

God say in matt 7, and matt 25, you not save because not do the Will of the Father.

to me not do mean not obey, and according to Jesus that person not save

matt 25 Jesus say you not save because not love your fellow man.

Jesus command to love your fellow man, according to Jesus in matt 25 if you not obey this command you not save.

I am not add anything, check yourself.

 

[SovereignGrace]

1. I keep qouting John 3:16 to back up my believe that Jesus love the world mean Jesus love all. Jesus not hypocritical He instruct us to love our enemy. WHO is our enemy? One WHO hate us or God is our enemy. If He tell us to love our enemy, He must love His enemy or He is hypocrit.
And you keep believe He love some and hate some.

The bible says He hates, read Psalm 5:5, Proverbs 6:16-19, Romans 9:13ff. You are in flat out denial that God hates ppl, but He does.

2. Let bible interprate bible my friend.

That's what I am doing. You're posting emotions and I am exegeting passages that when I exegete them for you, you just flat out ignore. God loves the world, but in the world are disobedient folk who have God's wrath hovering over them.

There are thousand verse say God is love.

And I agree with everyone one of those verses that states He is love. But love is not His only attribute...it is to you, though.

So I believe God hate the bad character not human.

You're denying the several verses that states God does hate ppl. You're the one in denial.

3. If so why Jesus instruct His follower to preach the gospel to all nation / unbeliever, anyway they not able to hear.

Because He said in John 10 He had other sheep not of this sheep pen, and He must bring them in. We are to preach to all as the elect of God as scattered throughout the whole world.

4. I do not add anything, God love the world is original, I am not add anything, that why I keep repeat this verse, because you keep attack this verse.

You said you must believe, you must obey, you, you, you. You've added 'you' to the gospel. The cross + what you did = salvation. That dog won't hunt, my Brother.

 

[trofimus]

Wow, I went to sleep when there were 2 pages, after I got up there are 8.

Thats whats called a "light discussion"

 

[Jackson123]

Brother, this is purely emotion speaking and not the bible. Jesus said 'let those who have ears hear.'[Matthew 11:15 13:9, 13:43, Mark 4:9, 4:23, 7:16, Luke 8:8 & 14:35] Not everybody has ears to hear with.

You have taken the onus of God's salvation from God and placed it upon man. A huge no-no.

we talk in general brother, most people have ear, some are deaf, but not most. Let me repeat what I Said, If unbeliever not able to hear the gospel, why Jesus instruct believer to tell them about gospel.

 

[trofimus]

1. I keep qouting John 3:16 to back up my believe that Jesus love the world mean Jesus love all. Jesus not hypocritical He instruct us to love our enemy.

I wonder what your response will be: What is more important to God? His love or His wisdom?

 

[SovereignGrace]

God say in matt 7, and matt 25, you not save because not do the Will of the Father.

to me not do mean not obey, and according to Jesus that person not save

matt 25 Jesus say you not save because not love your fellow man.

Jesus command to love your fellow man, according to Jesus in matt 25 if you not obey this command you not save.

I am not add anything, check yourself.

Those who do the will of the Father have been saved, have been regenerated.

The lost are dead as a corpse in their spirit. Unless God first quickens them, they can not hear, can not love Him, can not see, &c.

I don't know why you can't grasp this!?!?!?!?

 

[SovereignGrace]

we talk in general brother, most people have ear, some are deaf, but not most. Let me repeat what I Said, If unbeliever not able to hear the gospel, why Jesus instruct believer to tell them about gospel.

Because God saves ppl via the gospel.

Preaching to the lost is like preaching to a bunch of dead bones. Unless God quickens them, those words have no power. But when God moves through the preaching of the gospel, those that hear these words act out in faith and repentance and are saved.

You have man doing something and then God doing something. That's backwards. You're saying Lazarus came out of the tomb and the Christ gave him life because he heard those words and came out. That's what you're averring here. However, the Christ first quickened Lazarus, and came out when he heard "Lazarus come out!!"

 

[Jackson123]

1. The bible says He hates, read Psalm 5:5, Proverbs 6:16-19, Romans 9:13ff. You are in flat out denial that God hates ppl, but He does.


2.That's what I am doing. You're posting emotions and I am exegeting passages that when I exegete them for you, you just flat out ignore. God loves the world, but in the world are disobedient folk who have God's wrath hovering over them.


3.And I agree with everyone one of those verses that states He is love. But love is not His only attribute...it is to you, though.


4.You're denying the several verses that states God does hate ppl. You're the one in denial.



5 Because He said in John 10 He had other sheep not of this sheep pen, and He must bring them in. We are to preach to all as the elect of God as scattered throughout the whole world.



You said you must believe, you must obey, you, you, you. You've added 'you' to the gospel. The cross + what you did = salvation. That dog won't hunt, my Brother.

1. Than why God say He love the world, Are you Deny that God love the world? I interprate God hate mean hate the sin not the sinner.

2. Yep God wrath the world because of sin, not without reason.

3. So you believe God is love the world/all human and hate the world/all human?

4. I interprate different from your interpretation. My interpretation is God love sinner but hate sin

God command us to love our enemy why He hate His enemy?

5 I believe God invite all and whosoever believe Will be save, back to John 3:16. Are you denied John 3:16?

 

[Jackson123]

Those who do the will of the Father have been saved, have been regenerated.

The lost are dead as a corpse in their spirit. Unless God first quickens them, they can not hear, can not love Him, can not see, &c.

I don't know why you can't grasp this!?!?!?!?

I do not understand your Logic. You Said those WHO do the Will of the Father have benn save, Why they save?


I believe all the way around, they save because they do the Will of the Father

 

[Jackson123]

Because God saves ppl via the gospel.

Preaching to the lost is like preaching to a bunch of dead bones. Unless God quickens them, those words have no power. But when God moves through the preaching of the gospel, those that hear these words act out in faith and repentance and are saved.

You have man doing something and then God doing something. That's backwards. You're saying Lazarus came out of the tomb and the Christ gave him life because he heard those words and came out. That's what you're averring here. However, the Christ first quickened Lazarus, and came out when he heard "Lazarus come out!!"

So you believe Paul preach to the believer only?

Seem to me Peter preach to unbeliever and 3000 unbeliever become believer

 

[trofimus]

So you believe Paul preach to the believer only?

Seem to me Peter preach to unbeliever and 3000 unbeliever become believer

Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus.
2Tim 2:11

His mission was to bring the elect ones to faith/salvation.