Not By Works

[PeterJens]

Sealed in Christ

Let us listen to Paul

Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
2 Cor 1:21-22

Two things stand out here. God makes us stand firm in Christ.
The Holy Spirit in our hearts is our deposit

So here is the problem. Some have abandoned God, no longer are in Christ and are consumed
in sin and sinful behaviour.

If the seal is not removed, then these people are still in Christ, and still Holy with the Holy Temple
being defiled by their behaviour but God is not concerned, the Holy cannot be defiled.

Well obviously this is not true, and people can defile that which they have at first received.

Paul writes it like this

Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan.
1 Tim 5:15

Are they now still in Christ and full of the Holy Spirit? I think not.

It is easy to see the upside in fellowship in communion with Christ, but not the downside.

And our sense of the spiritual union, is hard to define. What are we in Christ?
This is the mystery of spiritual communion. But it truth just as we can come to life, we
can also die. This is why branches can wither on the vine and die.

 

[garee]

Sealed in Christ

Let us listen to Paul

Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
2 Cor 1:21-22

Two things stand out here. God makes us stand firm in Christ.
The Holy Spirit in our hearts is our deposit

So here is the problem. Some have abandoned God, no longer are in Christ and are consumed
in sin and sinful behaviour.

If the seal is not removed, then these people are still in Christ, and still Holy with the Holy Temple
being defiled by their behaviour but God is not concerned, the Holy cannot be defiled.

Well obviously this is not true, and people can defile that which they have at first received.

Paul writes it like this

Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan.
1 Tim 5:15

Are they now still in Christ and full of the Holy Spirit? I think not.

It is easy to see the upside in fellowship in communion with Christ, but not the downside.

And our sense of the spiritual union, is hard to define. What are we in Christ?
This is the mystery of spiritual communion. But it truth just as we can come to life, we
can also die. This is why branches can wither on the vine and die.

They receive eternal life not a down payment as if Christ could deny himself.

Do you deny him in unbelief (believe not)?

If so do you crucify him over each time by offering dead works and call that repentance?

It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.2Ti 2:11


What is it he cannot deny himself of other than His own work of faith that he works in us to both will and do his good pleasure?

Does God have faith?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But you say me and Jens are trying to keep ourselves saved instead of being kept saved by Christ, which you insist Christ is doing even though you say we don't believe in Christ because we're trying to save ourselves instead? That's H-Grace belief (it says even a return to unbelief can not forfeit your salvation), but didn't you say you're not H-Grace? Which only adds to the confusion because you said believers can not, and won't stop believing. Please, untwist this horrible mess of doctrine, lol!

1. Dude, give it up. Your hurting yourself. You slandered us by saying we say you could lose your salvation. You lied. And I expect a man who claims to be a christ lover to confess of that sin.

2. No one who has true faith WILL fall from belief. Because God will not give them a reason to.

3. If you think you can fall away from belief, You have to think God can fail you. So please. Do not tell ,me you trust God when you do not even think he can take care of all your needs, and he may fail you enough to stop believing, because i am not buying it.

 

[garee]

Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
2 Cor 1:21-22

Two things stand out here. God makes us stand firm in Christ.
The Holy Spirit in our hearts is our deposit

He creates us as a new creation us by giving us a new eternal spirit that will never die according to His work of faith as a labor of His love. .

What kind of spirit did he deposit in your heart if not eternal?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have a car that will run for 342 miles on a full tank of gas. According to you, it's not a car that can run for 342 miles if I am able to exit that car. The car doesn't cease being a car that will run for 342 mile car just because I can I jump out it. What happens in that case is I simply no longer possess the car that will run for 342 miles. The mileage of the car does not change, lol. Neither is it true that the life that lasts forever can not be the life that lasts forever if I am able to no longer be in that eternal life. What happens in that case is I simply no longer possess the life that lasts forever, lol.

1. You did not put yourself in the car. It was sealed. And it was impossible for you to enter. After you got in., God sealed you, just like he sealed Noah in the ark. Noah could not break Gods seal any more than You can.
2. Why do you insist on physical examples representing flawed weak human ideas to represent inflawed perfect things of God. That should wake you up right there.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, lol, that's not what the Lasagna analogy was about. You see OSAS automatically interprets the word 'sealed' as 'unable to be unsealed'. Of course it has to do that in order to defend what it believes. But if that's what the pure definition of 'sealed' means then that means you can not unseal the leftovers in your refrigerator. But as we all know the sealed leftovers in the refrigerator can in fact be unsealed. So, no, p4t, 'sealed' does not mean 'unable to be unsealed' as OSAS claims. It says 'sealed' means 'not able to be unsealed' in it's vain attempt to prove a person can not lose the Holy Spirit as easily as He came into that person. But every time you or I go to the refrigerator to get some leftovers we are reminded that is not what 'sealed' means by definition.

Actually the term sealed should be used the way God said it in his word.

Sealed UNTIL the day of redemption.

the word not only te4lls you how long that seal last. It tells us when it will end

what it does not do , is say you can unseal yourself. That would be giving you more power than you have, and place you ABOVE God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So answer the question (if you dare): Is it impossible that the car in my illustration can be a car that will run 342 miles if it's possible to jump out of that car? Of course not, lol. But so many Christians think eternal life can not be the life that never ends if they can jump out of it. If you lose eternal life, that doesn't mean it was not eternal to begin with. It only means you no longer possess the life that will never end.

see above,,

You tell us how you have more power than God. Or is that possible?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Original Poster: Phart

You may never view another batch of leftover Lasagna in the refrigerator the same ever again, lol.

Just remember every time you 'seal' the lid on a bowl of left over Lasagna that 'seal' does not mean by definition 'unable to be unsealed'. It means it is sealed until it is unsealed.

This is bad theology, a false gospel​

Amen, and the Bible tells us when that seal will be unsealed. THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.

Of course if it depends on human strength, human will and human wisdom, that seal could be broken.

so it depends on what our faith is in. GOD. Or SELF?

 

[garee]

Absolutely true. That's why we need to keep believing, so we can keep the Spirit who guarantees our inheritance. If you lose the deposit of the Holy Spirit you no longer have what that deposit secures for you on the Day of Salvation. It's just like when you buy a house. The deposit guarantees that you will own it in full one day. Lose the deposit for whatever reason and you most certainly will not have any more guarantee of future ownership of that house. You lose all rights to that house.

Perhaps I should weave a Lasagna connection into that house analogy.

If he began that work in us by creating in us a new spirit that could never die.why would you think his faith as a work could fail him? Will you work to take away the Christians confidence?

He bought the spiritual house (his bride the church) made up of many lively stones and guarantees he will finish working in us to both will and do His good pleasure to maintain it .

All saints died without receiving the promise a new incorruptible body.

Have you received the promise of His work of faith, as a labor of His love? Can his promises fail us? Are you embracing his promise of eternal spirit life?


Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

the People who end up in Hell......are alive forever as well. suffering eternal torment

matthew 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

those sent away call Jesus Lord as well.

daniel 12:12 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


the torment and shame and contempt...those things last forever as well.

being alive forever doesnt determine where eternity will be spent. Jesus taught How to spend it With God.

those in torment are called dead. In fact it is called the second death.

Those who are alive in christ, have been born again from above, thats why they are alive.

Eternal life is not given to the dead, and then sent to hell, the dead suffer eternal death. (Which is what those in hell will have, ete4rnal death, not life.)

anything apart from God is dead, even though physically alive,

 

[garee]

Absolutely true. That's why we need to keep believing, so we can keep the Spirit who guarantees our inheritance. If you lose the deposit of the Holy Spirit you no longer have what that deposit secures for you on the Day of Salvation. It's just like when you buy a house. The deposit guarantees that you will own it in full one day. Lose the deposit for whatever reason and you most certainly will not have any more guarantee of future ownership of that house. You lose all rights to that house.

Perhaps I should weave a Lasagna connection into that house analogy.

If he began that work in us by creating in us a new spirit that could never die.why would you think his faith as a work could fail him? Will you work to take away the Christians confidence?

He bought the spiritual house (his bride the church) made up of many lively stones and guarantees he will finish working in us to both will and do His good pleasure to maintain it .

All saints died without receiving the promise a new incorruptible body.

Have you received the promise of His work of faith, as a labor of His love? Can his promises fail us? Are you embracing his promise of eternal spirit life?


Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

and imagine a believer who refuses to accept Gods Word, shows what they think of thier own selves and what they think of God.

Yes it does.

how much worse it will be for them who know the word. And had Gods truth in their hands, and rejected it.

 

[garee]

Originally Posted by followjesus

the People who end up in Hell......are alive forever as well. suffering eternal torment

matthew 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

those sent away call Jesus Lord as well.

daniel 12:12 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, andsome to shame and everlasting contempt.


the torment and shame and contempt...those things last forever as well.

being alive forever doesnt determine where eternity will be spent. Jesus taught How to spend it With God.

Christ's sacrifice was a living sacrifice of pouring out His Spirit , not a dead work.

The everlasting punishment is to be dead never to raise to new spirit life forever more.

It would be quite difficult to suffer without a body or a spirit that was temporally given the first time . The new spirit and new heart is eternal it will never die but will be raised to new life. .

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You completely miss the point!
The deposit GUARANTEES the inheritance!
The inheritance is sure because of the deposit.
The deposit is the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is NOT subject to a human being - believer or not.
If you are indwelt with the Holy Spirit then you have a deposit that guarantees your inheritance (of eternal life).

This just goes to show they are still trying to pay for it themselves. A fact they deny.

 

[mailmandan]

romans 2 "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: << thats what those who repent and do right have to look forward to. they repent and obey Because they believe. They do Just what Noiah did to become the Heir to the righteousness of faith they Hear God and obey Him.8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; this is not speaking backwards but forward, its not about israel, its about Jes and gentile all people every soul of man.

10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God."

If one reads Romans 2:6-11 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it's important to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way those who are saved conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life. So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved.

Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. *You need to be careful not to confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture or else the end result will be salvation by works.

 

[PHart]

What you say is not truth, you cannot lose something you did not pay for...

Yes you can. You can lose something you did not pay for when there is a condition attached to it. In the case of salvation, the condition for receiving it and keeping it is believing. You did not get it for nothing. You got it in exchange for your believing.

I don't know if you at this moment think the believer can stop believing and, therefore, can not lose the gift because he will always believe, or whether you think you still have the gift even if you stop believing. That is what is so confusing about OSAS doctrine. People take one stance in one post then take another in a different post. So you will have to make that clear to me so I know what argument to address at this time.

; our inheritance is blood bought. Are you so foolish that you think you can buy your way into God's Kingdom with your good works....

How long will you not be able to hear the argument? You don't buy your way into the kingdom with good works. You qualify to enter the kingdom through your faith in Christ.


"12giving thanksto the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light." (Colossians 1:12 NASB)

Only forgiven people are qualified to enter the kingdom. You get that qualification, that forgiveness, and continue in it, by believing in that forgiveness. If you stop believing, you stop being qualified by God to be in the kingdom. Why do you keep hearing 'works' when I say 'believing' as if believing is a work of the damnable works gospel?

We were marked with a "seal, the promise of the Holy Spirit", and it is the "Holy Spirit guaranteeing our inheritance," (not your wonderful lasagna in the refrigerator; false gospel). "And having been predestined according to His plans" (Not your earthly wisdom which will ultimately fail you), And He works everything, in conformity with the purpose of His will, (Not Your will), "to the praise of His Glory", (not Your good works),

It's time to set up your workshop and start producing Lasagna. All of your idea's are earthly and foolish wisdom that can never save a soul; but God's wisdom can.

So what, so you're Calvinist. You think this is all just a pre-programmed game that we have no choice but to follow. Why are you even posting here? Why are you even arguing the point about the Day of Salvation to come if it has nothing whatsoever to do with us, not even the condition of our believing?

 

[SovereignGrace]

phart is still stinking.

 

[PHart]

If one reads Romans 2:6-11 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it's important to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way those who are saved conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life. So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved.

Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. *You need to be careful not to confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture or else the end result will be salvation by works.

Then you agree. All this makes works REQUIRED in salvation. Not to earn salvation, but as the obligatory sign that follows the one who has faith in Christ. But for some reason the church at large can only hear 'works salvation' the instant they hear the word 'works'. Even when you say 'believing' they hear 'works salvation'. We are witnessing the great falling away, IMO.

 

[PHart]

This just goes to show they are still trying to pay for it themselves. A fact they deny.

God gave me the down payment that I have to have to secure the kingdom. How is that me trying to pay for it myself, lol?

 

[blue_ladybug]

I just almost peed myself LOL'ing..

Thanks SG...

phart is still stinking.