Not By Works
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J
Phart, when you die and Jesus ask's you; Pfart why should I let you into my Kingdom, what are you going to say. Well because of all of my good works that I performed for you to keep myself saved plus I make a great lasagna dish, how foolish. You cannot keep yourself saved and you are diminishing the Power of God to accomplish in you what He wills. But keep on cooking your Lasagna for God
and maybe He will wash away some of your sins.
and maybe He will wash away some of your sins.
It is a debate joefizz, Asking someone, what they would say if God said "why should I let you into my Kingdom", is a common phrase used in evangelism. It is not meant to be offensive nor suggesting that someone is not saved. It is just a starting place to have a conversation. You would be surprised at some of the answers you get from honest folks.
This thread was started by Decon, and respectfully I have asked him at different times, "are my post's okay with you", and his reply has always been yes. If someone think's I have not been fair or broken Chrstianchat forum rules then report me to the mod's.
There was nothing in my post above that was rude or insulting. It was Pfart who chose to use the lasagna example and that is why I carried his own logic to a conclusion. That is fair play in a debate, not insulting. I know you understand this and I really do appreciate that you are pointing out this fact, thank you.
God bless
This thread was started by Decon, and respectfully I have asked him at different times, "are my post's okay with you", and his reply has always been yes. If someone think's I have not been fair or broken Chrstianchat forum rules then report me to the mod's.
There was nothing in my post above that was rude or insulting. It was Pfart who chose to use the lasagna example and that is why I carried his own logic to a conclusion. That is fair play in a debate, not insulting. I know you understand this and I really do appreciate that you are pointing out this fact, thank you.
God bless
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J
Phart, when you die and Jesus ask's you; Pfart why should I let you into my Kingdom, what are you going to say. Well because of all of my good works that I performed for you to keep myself saved plus I make a great lasagna dish, how foolish. You cannot keep yourself saved and you are diminishing the Power of God to accomplish in you what He wills. But keep on cooking your Lasagna for God
and maybe He will wash away some of your sins.
and maybe He will wash away some of your sins.
And thank you joefizz, you are a joy to have here on this thread not only because we can all see the great love you have for Jesus, but you are also a pleasant person to talk with. I often tell Phart that I think he's a smart and nice guy but he is wrong about his doctrinal position that, a Christian can lose his or her salvation.
I know Jesus is your first love and so is He my first love. And that is why I am willing to discuss day after day our being saved by grace apart from works, because He suffered so much for us to bring eternal salvation. Yeah okay, plus I'm a retiree and I have to much free time. You make a good balance here on this thread and I hope you will be here a long time, thank's....
God bless
I know Jesus is your first love and so is He my first love. And that is why I am willing to discuss day after day our being saved by grace apart from works, because He suffered so much for us to bring eternal salvation. Yeah okay, plus I'm a retiree and I have to much free time. You make a good balance here on this thread and I hope you will be here a long time, thank's....
God bless
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Remember those that Believe and have the Faith of Jesus are to Keep the Commandments of GOD.
The Messiah through His New Testament gave the Royal Law which we all know is to Love GOD with all our being and each other..
Those of us who are born again of the Holy Spirit are at liberty under Grace but will be judged by Christ.
When the Messiah said depart from me I never knew you.. it was to those that worked iniquity.. if you think those who Keep GOD's Law through Faith in His Son's Testament will be told to depart you are mistaken.. for when it is written:
Galatians 5
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness temperance: against such there is no law. 24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Which of GOD's Law is broken if we Love GOD and each other? I say none... for Love fulfills the Law of GOD.. Faith that worketh by love...
I know many interpret verses contrary but it is not so.. Blessed are they that do His Commandments..
Now all things are through Faith in Christ.. and yes it is part of His Testament.. you may of read but not believed and then read verses that teach the New Testament in place of the Old.. but GOD said a New Covenant.
If the Jesus you serve does not teach you to Keep His Father's Commandments then something is a miss..
The Just shall live by Faith..
The Liberty we have in Christ is to walk in the Spirit.
Without a doubt the New wine is better and should be treasured above all that try to yoke us under the Old.. for the Old was to bring the New for us to believe and be set free... GOD be thanked for His Grace, Mercy and love toward us through Christ.
For a million good deeds can not Forgive and reconcile you with GOD, No only through Faith will you be born again...
The Messiah through His New Testament gave the Royal Law which we all know is to Love GOD with all our being and each other..
Those of us who are born again of the Holy Spirit are at liberty under Grace but will be judged by Christ.
When the Messiah said depart from me I never knew you.. it was to those that worked iniquity.. if you think those who Keep GOD's Law through Faith in His Son's Testament will be told to depart you are mistaken.. for when it is written:
Galatians 5
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness temperance: against such there is no law. 24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Which of GOD's Law is broken if we Love GOD and each other? I say none... for Love fulfills the Law of GOD.. Faith that worketh by love...
I know many interpret verses contrary but it is not so.. Blessed are they that do His Commandments..
Now all things are through Faith in Christ.. and yes it is part of His Testament.. you may of read but not believed and then read verses that teach the New Testament in place of the Old.. but GOD said a New Covenant.
If the Jesus you serve does not teach you to Keep His Father's Commandments then something is a miss..
The Just shall live by Faith..
The Liberty we have in Christ is to walk in the Spirit.
Without a doubt the New wine is better and should be treasured above all that try to yoke us under the Old.. for the Old was to bring the New for us to believe and be set free... GOD be thanked for His Grace, Mercy and love toward us through Christ.
For a million good deeds can not Forgive and reconcile you with GOD, No only through Faith will you be born again...
Ariel - Good to see you back again.
Honestly I do not believe people are talking past one another, it is different frames of reference.
One group accept the Lord is their King and He empowers them to walk in His ways.
The other group believe God has done everything, they are secure, and the rest will follow under
His grace. They believe in principles and ideas but not in a binding way, because security for
them is their hightest ethic. Sin is denying this ethic, the only sin now unforgiven of unbelief.
This ethic shows itself in various exchanges, but in essence, as soon as you show breaking the
security belief, you are an unbeliever, in their eyes unsaved.
So the language is the same but not ethics involved. In a real sense this is a religion within a
religion.
The problem with this ethic, is it overrides and distorts everything else. Why deal with sin as it
is already forgiven. We rebuke another, because they are already safe in God. You could argue
this is total relief and freedom or actually insanity where responsibility has been removed over ones
actions and one is a slave to whatever you fancy.
Why this ethic is wrong is because of the above effects. It is a denial of the impact in peoples
lives of reality. How can they ever wake up or start getting real about anything, because it is
all just a matter of doing what you regard right in your own eyes. The preaching becomes dealing
with guilt and shame not resolving the heart, purifying the soul, walking in the Spirit.
So dc will say we believe something without the power and truth of the gospel, because in their
mind putting on the new self and dying to the old self is legalism, self righteousness and evil empty
trying to prove to God you are worthy.
From our perspective, not carrying the cross, struggling with the impulses of the flesh, setting ones
mind on things above and not on the earth is part of the Kingdoms walk. It is not proving to God
we are worthy or self righteous, but walking the walk He has called us to because He has washed
us clean and made us righteous, so we can walk it.
In a sense EG was right about not believing the same things.
Context is everything. But it means in essence the gospel of Christ to them is death and judgement.
No wonder they get angry, frustrated, want to rip people apart. They have already reached their
heaven, worldliness put in the Kingdom.
Their world view is very destructive. Sin, guilt, shame, confession, repentance are all dead things,
because they just want to dwell in acceptance without boundaries, because they believe, and
that is enough, no matter how they behave.
So in summary, nothing is going to change their behaviour because in their ethic we are
commiting the sin of unbelief and doomed to hell.
To accept their view, I would have to ignore scripture and Christ and appease the guilt
of sin, by denial and not resolution through walking in love and Christs forgiveness and cleansing.
Honestly I do not believe people are talking past one another, it is different frames of reference.
One group accept the Lord is their King and He empowers them to walk in His ways.
The other group believe God has done everything, they are secure, and the rest will follow under
His grace. They believe in principles and ideas but not in a binding way, because security for
them is their hightest ethic. Sin is denying this ethic, the only sin now unforgiven of unbelief.
This ethic shows itself in various exchanges, but in essence, as soon as you show breaking the
security belief, you are an unbeliever, in their eyes unsaved.
So the language is the same but not ethics involved. In a real sense this is a religion within a
religion.
The problem with this ethic, is it overrides and distorts everything else. Why deal with sin as it
is already forgiven. We rebuke another, because they are already safe in God. You could argue
this is total relief and freedom or actually insanity where responsibility has been removed over ones
actions and one is a slave to whatever you fancy.
Why this ethic is wrong is because of the above effects. It is a denial of the impact in peoples
lives of reality. How can they ever wake up or start getting real about anything, because it is
all just a matter of doing what you regard right in your own eyes. The preaching becomes dealing
with guilt and shame not resolving the heart, purifying the soul, walking in the Spirit.
So dc will say we believe something without the power and truth of the gospel, because in their
mind putting on the new self and dying to the old self is legalism, self righteousness and evil empty
trying to prove to God you are worthy.
From our perspective, not carrying the cross, struggling with the impulses of the flesh, setting ones
mind on things above and not on the earth is part of the Kingdoms walk. It is not proving to God
we are worthy or self righteous, but walking the walk He has called us to because He has washed
us clean and made us righteous, so we can walk it.
In a sense EG was right about not believing the same things.
Context is everything. But it means in essence the gospel of Christ to them is death and judgement.
No wonder they get angry, frustrated, want to rip people apart. They have already reached their
heaven, worldliness put in the Kingdom.
Their world view is very destructive. Sin, guilt, shame, confession, repentance are all dead things,
because they just want to dwell in acceptance without boundaries, because they believe, and
that is enough, no matter how they behave.
So in summary, nothing is going to change their behaviour because in their ethic we are
commiting the sin of unbelief and doomed to hell.
To accept their view, I would have to ignore scripture and Christ and appease the guilt
of sin, by denial and not resolution through walking in love and Christs forgiveness and cleansing.
A new summary phrase - The ethic of salvation security(SS) is righteousness and perfection.
Jesus's ethic is loving God with everything and loving your neighbour is Gods way in the Kingdom.
The group who follow SS, have failed to follow love and fall into guilt and struggle their resolution
is condemnation of the walk and holding on to SS.
Jesus's ethic is loving God with everything and loving your neighbour is Gods way in the Kingdom.
The group who follow SS, have failed to follow love and fall into guilt and struggle their resolution
is condemnation of the walk and holding on to SS.
I find our emotions play games with us.
In my mind there are two truths that stand above all else.
Jesus, our relationship to Him and the effect this has on our lives in terms of obedience.
Once you move away from Jesus, His words and obedience, things start falling apart.
I read of one man, a prophet, who went into a church and said this woman was married
to the wrong man, and should be with this other man.
This is typical of the confusion of authority, morality, faithfulness, what we are in ourselves
and what we are called to be through our walk empowered by the Holy Spirit.
People have endured terrible things in history, through knowing Christ and standing on the rock
of His word and His love. When things start to say, this is wrong, you can compromise, because
it feels right, sin has already entered in.
Take the homosexual debate or sexual identity crisis. These are biological and environmental issues,
but we can sow to the flesh, our inclinations, or bring them to the Lord, and learn how to love despite
these. It is a reality we can become something else and change, but we need to be willing, and there
are limits. Strong stimuli change our brains, make us into different people, so equally knowing the Lord
and exercising repentance, confession, love and praise transforms us.
We reap what we sow, but it takes time and patience.
In my mind there are two truths that stand above all else.
Jesus, our relationship to Him and the effect this has on our lives in terms of obedience.
Once you move away from Jesus, His words and obedience, things start falling apart.
I read of one man, a prophet, who went into a church and said this woman was married
to the wrong man, and should be with this other man.
This is typical of the confusion of authority, morality, faithfulness, what we are in ourselves
and what we are called to be through our walk empowered by the Holy Spirit.
People have endured terrible things in history, through knowing Christ and standing on the rock
of His word and His love. When things start to say, this is wrong, you can compromise, because
it feels right, sin has already entered in.
Take the homosexual debate or sexual identity crisis. These are biological and environmental issues,
but we can sow to the flesh, our inclinations, or bring them to the Lord, and learn how to love despite
these. It is a reality we can become something else and change, but we need to be willing, and there
are limits. Strong stimuli change our brains, make us into different people, so equally knowing the Lord
and exercising repentance, confession, love and praise transforms us.
We reap what we sow, but it takes time and patience.
A
THERE SHE IS
i missed you ariel
i hope you have been well in the Lord
may God bless you and your family
i missed you ariel
i hope you have been well in the Lord
may God bless you and your family
Been trying to get used to the back to school schedule..on my to do list today is taking a walk with my dog in the woods and learning to make bread...,mine typically resemble bricks but hopeful that this attempt will be edible.
My biscuits came out good.., a little dry but milk or jelly fixes that up.
Yes I am babbling off topic. Figured Econ and others won't mind. Lol.
A
Truthtalk, you worry too much what others think of you and that you might offend someone.
To a degree it's a blessing because it shows your compassionate heart and unwillingness to hurt others.
But it is also a curse because it reveals that you are easily offended and project that anger and offense into other people.
I am not anger at you and don't think you have broken any rules or truly offended anyone here. I don't think you dislike me,but believe it are not there are people on this forum who can't stand anything I post and will attack anything I say and twist my meaning.
I don't believe you are one of those people and no one has done it recently,
I guess I am just preparing myself for an attack that may never happen...perhaps it shows my lack in faith in the goodness and love of others?
Is that cynicism or just being realistic?
I don't know.
I spent a couple months posting in this thread and got to know quite a few folks and their beliefs.
New people but the same issues good and bad.
Anyway,i hope you have a blessed day,
Know that if you are worried what I think of you, then it is simply that you too are a beloved child of God making his way back home. Let us press forward and encourage and build one another up instead of engaging in gossiping and bickering. Let us clearly state as God has given us ability the Gospel and Let us testify to how His grace and love has changed our hearts,minds and lives for His glory.
To a degree it's a blessing because it shows your compassionate heart and unwillingness to hurt others.
But it is also a curse because it reveals that you are easily offended and project that anger and offense into other people.
I am not anger at you and don't think you have broken any rules or truly offended anyone here. I don't think you dislike me,but believe it are not there are people on this forum who can't stand anything I post and will attack anything I say and twist my meaning.
I don't believe you are one of those people and no one has done it recently,
I guess I am just preparing myself for an attack that may never happen...perhaps it shows my lack in faith in the goodness and love of others?
Is that cynicism or just being realistic?
I don't know.
I spent a couple months posting in this thread and got to know quite a few folks and their beliefs.
New people but the same issues good and bad.
Anyway,i hope you have a blessed day,
Know that if you are worried what I think of you, then it is simply that you too are a beloved child of God making his way back home. Let us press forward and encourage and build one another up instead of engaging in gossiping and bickering. Let us clearly state as God has given us ability the Gospel and Let us testify to how His grace and love has changed our hearts,minds and lives for His glory.
P
Good grief, Penn, how is what you said NOT a person can live any way they want and they are still saved? Lol.
And, while on the subject of 1 Corinthians 5:5, if OSAS is true, why does the flesh of the sinning fellow at Corinth have to die so that his spirit is saved on the Day of Christ's appearing? If OSAS was true he would not have that condition attached to his salvation.
And, while on the subject of 1 Corinthians 5:5, if OSAS is true, why does the flesh of the sinning fellow at Corinth have to die so that his spirit is saved on the Day of Christ's appearing? If OSAS was true he would not have that condition attached to his salvation.
P
How have you missed this through all these pages???? Mere mental assent to the facts of Christ is NOT the faith that justifies. Faith is evidenced by obedience to God. Paul himself says the faith that justifies is the faith that loves (Galatians 5:6), not the faith that only mentally assents to acknowledgement of Christ. James said that kind of faith--the faith of knowing facts alone--can not save. That is the faith the demons have. Even they have the knowledge of Christ's resurrection. Their's is a faith that can not save. James said so. But many in the church are sure he is wrong and their faith 'alone' (minus the deeds attached to REAL faith) is going to save them on the Day of Wrath. Wake up folks....'taint gonna happen.
i haven't read further than this, so please forgive me if this has already been addressed, y'all.
Peter, the vertical consequences for sin have been dealt with for God's people. their sins have been paid for, forever, with the stunning declaration, tetalestai! it is finished!
will God discipline His children? yes, if they are indeed His, He will, as a Good Father, to teach them to obey.
might there be horizontal consequences for sin? yes, if i speak harshly to my sister, she might be hurt and our relationship will suffer. will God damn me for speaking harshly to my sister if i am in Christ?
no, for He has promised to remember my sins and iniquities no more. (doesn't mean i shouldn't do it, and indeed, i don't wish to. if i am tempted to, i know to Whom to go for grace, and the strength to resist.)
see how simple it is?
Thankfully, it's the faith of Christ that justifies and not our individual faith. Where's the evidence of Christ's faith? Look no further than His obedience unto death, even the death of the cross.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
P
But so many people are taking false comfort in their erroneous belief that they can be seperate and has no affect whatsoever on their salvation. That's not what the author of Hebrews says:
"...sanctification without which no one will see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14 NASB)
But so many people in the church are sure they are going to see the Lord without sanctification because they have been told over and over and over again that they do not have to change into different people because that would be a works gospel, not knowing that the faith that justifies is the faith that changes a person into a person who acts like Jesus.
The faith that justifies/saves is evidenced by the change it affects in a person. That's why works have to be part of a salvation experience. Some will agree with that, but then they'll turn right around in another post and say you don't have to be changed because that would be a works gospel. Very confusing doctrine indeed.
"...sanctification without which no one will see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14 NASB)
But so many people in the church are sure they are going to see the Lord without sanctification because they have been told over and over and over again that they do not have to change into different people because that would be a works gospel, not knowing that the faith that justifies is the faith that changes a person into a person who acts like Jesus.
The faith that justifies/saves is evidenced by the change it affects in a person. That's why works have to be part of a salvation experience. Some will agree with that, but then they'll turn right around in another post and say you don't have to be changed because that would be a works gospel. Very confusing doctrine indeed.
