Salvation is Not Permanent

[newton3003]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Canwe ever lose our salvation through God, once we have attained it?[/FONT]


[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Thatquestion might have the same relevance as the question of whetherangels can be tossed out of Heaven. Oh, but wait...they can be! Fordoes it not say in Luke 10:18 that Jesus said, “I saw Satan falllike lightning from heaven”? So, it seems that the same God who canmake angels fall out of Heaven is the same God that can take away oursalvation.[/FONT]


[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Whatis salvation from God? It is being saved from death, so we may dwellin His House. God chooses those He may grant salvation to, and as itis inferred in Ephesians 2:8-9, God measures our faith in Him ratherthan the works we perform, for if we were judged by our works it isquestionable as to whom we are performing those works for, if we haveno faith in Him. [/FONT]


[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Havinggained salvation is, in some ways, akin to gaining employment. As inattaining salvation, when we interview for a job we desire, thepotential employer judges us in terms of what they see as ourcommitment to the job if we get it. If the employer determines thatwe may have enough of a commitment to the job, we are hired and lowand behold, we have a job. But that same job can be taken away fromus if our employer determined we've done something wrong that wouldget us fired.[/FONT]


[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Inthe same sense, we may at first show that our faith in God is enoughto earn us salvation so we may be admitted into Heaven, but, as withSatan, God will throw us out of Heaven. To be sure, I tell you thatour salvation, if attainable, is only given to us after we have leftour flesh. [/FONT]


[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Doesanyone have any idea if God will give them salvation? Other thanJesus, no one is perfect in righteousness. We have all been conceivedin sin, that is, we've been conceived amongst the sins of the worldand as such, none of us are immune from sin. But as God may haverealized that since everyone will sin in their lives and thereforewould be unworthy of dwelling in His House, He may forgive us ofcertain transgressions if we ask Him for it. [/FONT]


[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]So,we have plenty of time while in the flesh to earn God's Salvation forentry into His House. But beware that although God forgives, we arejudged at the end of our lives on earth and our faith in Him isjudged on the whole. And as we are reminded in Proverbs 3:5 to putour trust in God and not lean on our understanding, we can onlystrive to love God with all our heart, soul, might and mind, and loveeachother as we do ourselves, and hope for God's Grace.[/FONT]

 

[Innerfire89]

God works faith into us, and salvation comes with election, we're chosen for salvation before were ever born. Salvation is much more than just a second chance, it's The Spirit working in us to change us and to be conformed to the likeness of Christ.

 

[preacher4truth]

Canwe <sic> ever lose our salvation through God, once we have attained it?

Havinggained <sic> salvation is, in some ways, akin to gaining employment. As inattaining<sic>salvation, when we interview for a job we desire

Inthe <sic> same sense, we may at first show that our faith in God is enoughto <sic> earn us salvation so we may be admitted into Heaven,

So,we have plenty of time while in the flesh to earn God's Salvation forentry <sic> into His House.

Just wanted to clear things up. That is full Pelagianism and of course a false gospel, which is rampant around here.

 

[Hizikyah]

Revelation 11:15, “And the seventh messenger sounded his trumpet, and there came to be loud voices in the heaven, saying, “The reign of this world has become the reign of our Master, and of His Messiah, and He shall reign forever and ever!”


1 Corinthians 15:51-55, “See, I speak a secret to you: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible has to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality. And when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall come to be the word that has been written, “Death is swallowed up in overcoming. O Death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your overcoming?”

Mat 19:27-29, “Then Kĕpha answering, said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. What then shall we have? And יהושע said to them, “Truly I say to you, when the Son of Aḏam sits on the throne of His esteem, you who have followed Me in the rebirth, shall also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Yisra’yl. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My Name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.”



Ezekiyl 48:35, "“All around: eighteen thousand cubits. And the name of the city from that day is: יהוה is there!” (In Hebrew: יהוה Shammah)


Revelation 21:3-4, "And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of YHWH is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and YHWH Himself will be with them, and be their Father. And YHWH will wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there will be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, nor will there be any more pain, for the former things have passed away.”



Daniel 2:44, “And in the days of these sovereigns the Elah of the heavens shall set up a reign which shall never be destroyed, nor the reign pass on to other people – it crushes and puts to an end all these reigns, and it shall stand forever.”


Daniyl 7:27, “Then the kingdoms and governments, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, will be given to the people of the Saints of YHWH, Whose Kingdom is an Everlasting Kingdom, and all governments will serve and obey Him.”

 

[Dino246]

He has given us the Holy Spirit as a guarantee:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22

Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Corinthians 5:5

Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.


Ephesians 1:13b-14

When you believed, you were marked in him [Christ] with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Hmmm... nothing about that seems "non-permanent" to me.

 

[Hizikyah]

Hebrews 4:12-13, “For the Word of Yah is living, and working, and sharper than any two-edged sword, cutting through even to the dividing of being and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all are naked and laid bare before the eyes of Him with whom is our account."

1 Corinthians 4:4-5, “For I know nothing by myself; yet by this I am not justified, for He Who judges me is יהוה! Therefore, judge nothing before the time. Wait until Yahshua comes, Who will bring to light the things hidden in darkness, and will reveal the secret intentions of men's hearts; and then each man will receive praise from יהוה.”

2 Corinthians 5:10, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah, that each one may receive his reward according to what he has done in the body, whether righteous or evil.”

James 1:12, “Blessed is the man who does endure trial, for when he has been proved, he shall receive the crown of life which the Master has promised to those who love Him.”

 

[Enow]

You cannot lose salvation any more than you can lose your seal of adoption, the indwelling Holy Spirit. The Father cannot cease to be the Father under the New Covenant when His children go astray and do bad things, but as in any parent, the Father will chasten every child He receives, even if it means casting them into the bed of the great tribulation at the pre trib rapture event when God judges His House.

This is where the vessels unto dishonor that are in His House comes from when they did not apply faith in Jesus Christ in being their Good Shepherd to help them lay aside every weight & sin in running that race as we can only live that reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ; not by doing the best we can, but by trusting Him to finish His work in us.

This is why we all can rest in Him when we had come to & believed in Jesus Christ that we are saved as we are to exhort one another and encourage one another to apply that same faith in Him as our Saviour to be our Good Shepherd too in helping us to follow Him as His sheep, bought with a price and sealed as His so that we can walk in fellowship with the Father & the Son so that our joy may be full.

 

[garee]

Thatquestion might have the same relevance as the question of whetherangels can be tossed out of Heaven. Oh, but wait...they can be! Fordoes it not say in Luke 10:18 that Jesus said, “I saw Satan falllike lightning from heaven”? So, it seems that the same God who canmake angels fall out of Heaven is the same God that can take away oursalvation.

Angels as spirit beings not formed from the dust (no dna) are not subject to salvation. They are not created in the likeness of God. Its men who create them in the likeness of men that look for their salvation..

He has a special place reserved for the unclean unconverted, nonconvertible, typified by pigs typified as the lake of fire..

Luke 8:33 Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the lake, and were choked.

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

 

[Jackson123]

Interesting It is posible to chose devil after experience walk with God like Adam. Mark 13 give us a clue, Jesus warn to watch, seem to me devil is danger like a lion, roared to pounce oN the careless. Mark 13:34-37 give us a clue that we can lose our salvation

Mark 13

34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Jesus have good reason to warn us

 

[Innerfire89]

Interesting It is posible to chose devil after experience walk with God like Adam. Mark 13 give us a clue, Jesus warn to watch, seem to me devil is danger like a lion, roared to pounce oN the careless. Mark 13:34-37 give us a clue that we can lose our salvation

Mark 13

34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Jesus have good reason to warn us

It's the reverse now, we start out fallen like Adam was and Christ brings us to be what Adam was before he sinned.

I would ask, will those who have salvation ever ignore a warning from Christ? Let's say it is possible to loose salvation, the question should be will salvation be lost?

 

[trofimus]

We are more than angels. Angels are only servants, we are sons.

And sons remain in house for ever, as Paul said.

When we were born from above from the Spirit, our salvation cannot be lost.

He lives in us so we will be transformed to His image more and more, not less and less.

 

[PHart]

He has given us the Holy Spirit as a guarantee:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22

Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Corinthians 5:5

Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.


Ephesians 1:13b-14

When you believed, you were marked in him [Christ] with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Hmmm... nothing about that seems "non-permanent" to me.

If I gave you a coupon for a guaranteed free Lasagna dinner and you lost the ticket does that mean the dinner was never guaranteed?

 

[trofimus]

If I gave you a coupon for a guaranteed free Lasagna dinner and you lost the ticket does that mean the dinner was never guaranteed?

We are born from above. Its not like to lost a ticket. The Holy Spirit in you would have to die. Impossible.

 

[PHart]

It's the reverse now, we start out fallen like Adam was and Christ brings us to be what Adam was before he sinned.

Oh, dear Lord, I hope not. Adam was untested, and unclothed with Christ and unable to resist temptation and didn't know it. He had not died the necessary 'death by commandment' that must occur before one can be what God created him to be. Being like Adam before the fall is a giagantic step backwards. No thanks.

I would ask, will those who have salvation ever ignore a warning from Christ? Let's say it is possible to loose salvation, the question should be will salvation be lost?

Actually, the question is, "can a true believer ever stop believing?" I have concluded that is what the question of OSAS boils down to.

The Bible is clear on what will happen to the believer that stops believing, and as a result, goes back to the world. That's not up for legitimate debate. What is not so clear is if the true believer can ever stop believing and that all the warnings to not stop believing always and without exception keep the true believer from falling away into unbelief. But really, the language of the warnings, and real life examples lean way more toward the very real possibility of the genuine believer going back to unbelief, and as a result, being lost on the Day of Judgment, not saved as expected.

 

[PHart]

We are born from above. Its not like to lost a ticket. The Holy Spirit in you would have to die. Impossible.

No, He would have to simply leave as easily as He entered into you.

 

[Innerfire89]

Oh, dear Lord, I hope not. Adam was untested, and unclothed with Christ and unable to resist temptation and didn't know it. He had not died the necessary 'death by commandment' that must occur before one can be what God created him to be. Being like Adam before the fall is a giagantic step backwards. No thanks.


Actually, the question is, "can a true believer ever stop believing?" I have concluded that is what the question of OSAS boils down to.

The Bible is clear on what will happen to the believer that stops believing, and as a result, goes back to the world. That's not up for legitimate debate. What is not so clear is if the true believer can ever stop believing and that all the warnings to not stop believing always and without exception keep the true believer from falling away into unbelief. But really, the language of the warnings, and real life examples lean way more toward the very real possibility of the genuine believer going back to unbelief, and as a result, being lost on the Day of Judgment, not saved as expected.

Ah, but we are a new creature in Christ and it's he who causes us to believe Eph 2:8-9.

Then we have to look at attonment, if all of their sins of were paid for on the cross, than how can punishment be returned.

 

[notuptome]

No, He would have to simply leave as easily as He entered into you.

Jesus promised He would never leave nor forsake.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Innerfire89]

Oh, dear Lord, I hope not. Adam was untested, and unclothed with Christ and unable to resist temptation and didn't know it. He had not died the necessary 'death by commandment' that must occur before one can be what God created him to be. Being like Adam before the fall is a giagantic step backwards. No thanks.


Actually, the question is, "can a true believer ever stop believing?" I have concluded that is what the question of OSAS boils down to.

The Bible is clear on what will happen to the believer that stops believing, and as a result, goes back to the world. That's not up for legitimate debate. What is not so clear is if the true believer can ever stop believing and that all the warnings to not stop believing always and without exception keep the true believer from falling away into unbelief. But really, the language of the warnings, and real life examples lean way more toward the very real possibility of the genuine believer going back to unbelief, and as a result, being lost on the Day of Judgment, not saved as expected.

I was reffering to being pure and clean again, and having relationship with God as Adam once did.

 

[trofimus]

No, He would have to simply leave as easily as He entered into you.

You do not understand that we must be born from above. Its not like having a guest in you.

He did not just "came in".

Thats why His presence in us is an assurance. It would be no assurance if He could just leave again, think about it.

Your father cannot just "leave" to make you unborn.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Do you realize that when you post such a title -- "Salvation is Not Permanent" -- on a Christian forum you throw many seekers and even new believers into confusion, doubt, uncertainty, negativity, despair, and disgust, while casting an insult on the finished work of Christ? You would be wise to ask the moderators to delete this altogether. Some threads should not even see the light of day.