How do Arminians deal with this passage?

[Depleted]

It has been made clear by quite a few people that Calvinism is a terrible belief system. God can't possibly be choosing who he will save and choosing who he won't save. We have free will, for Pete's sake. But my memories of Arminian-think are fading. So, I ask your help.

Arminians, how do you handle these verses in The Gospel of John?

Joh 12:37 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him,
Joh 12:38 so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: "Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"
Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
Joh 12:40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them."
Joh 12:41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him.
Joh 12:42 Nevertheless, many even of the authorities believed in him, but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it, so that they would not be put out of the synagogue;
Joh 12:43 for they loved the glory that comes from man more than the glory that comes from God.

How could God possibly blind eyes and harden hearts for fear otherwise he'd have to heal them?

 

[notuptome]

A better question is why did God choose to save any? Gods foreknowledge is not Gods predetermination. God knew that the Jews would reject Christ and send Jesus to the cross. The Jews cried for His blood to be upon them and their generations. Hello Isaiah a book that describes apostate Israel and the hardness of their hearts. yet God loves them and will have mercy upon them redeeming them when Christ returns.

Jesus lamented over Jerusalem. Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Jackson123]

It has been made clear by quite a few people that Calvinism is a terrible belief system. God can't possibly be choosing who he will save and choosing who he won't save. We have free will, for Pete's sake. But my memories of Arminian-think are fading. So, I ask your help.

Arminians, how do you handle these verses in The Gospel of John?

Joh 12:37 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him,
Joh 12:38 so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: "Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"
Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
Joh 12:40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them."
Joh 12:41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him.
Joh 12:42 Nevertheless, many even of the authorities believed in him, but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it, so that they would not be put out of the synagogue;
Joh 12:43 for they loved the glory that comes from man more than the glory that comes from God.

How could God possibly blind eyes and harden hearts for fear otherwise he'd have to heal them?

God is love, God want every body save ( 2 Peter 3:9) But God is also just, to my knowledge, ther is unforgiven sin, I believe prior to God harden they heart, they do terible sin. I do not believe God did It oN random.

 

[notuptome]

By the way I do not consider myself Arminian or Calvinist. Just for clarity's sake.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[oyster67]

The theme of God giving people up to their own reprobate minds is woven throughout Scripture. God's Spirit shall not always strive with a man. Although God loves all and is not willing that any should perish, He is not a beggar. When God calls a person to Himself, it is time for that person to make a decision. He may not get another chance.

 

[notuptome]

The theme of God giving people up to their own reprobate minds is woven throughout Scripture. God's Spirit shall not always strive with a man. Although God loves all and is not willing that any should perish, He is not a beggar. When God calls a person to Himself, it is time for that person to make a decision. He may not get another chance.

Well are we more worthy than they?

What of the couple in 1 Cor 5?

What of Ananias and Sapphira?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[garee]

How could God possibly blind eyes and harden hearts for fear otherwise he'd have to heal them?

Its why he came into the word that the spiritually blind might see and those who think they have spiritual sight might be made blind so that the gospel might have an affect.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

When a person has the work of Christ’s faith in respect to that seen rather than he who is not seen then natural unconverted men make them into gods in the likeness of men.

Not mixing the faith of God in that which they do see or hear.

We are made in his likeness not him in ours. The work does not say to him who formed it...you have no understanding.

The apostate Jews in that way were noted for turning things upside down requiring as sign as that seen before they would believe making the cross gospel without effect . It’s an evil generation, the generation of natural unconverted men that does seek after them.

Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. Act 14:10

 

[oyster67]

Well are we more worthy than they?

What of the couple in 1 Cor 5?

What of Ananias and Sapphira?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

It is not a question of being worthy or of committing a particular sinful act, it is a question of whether one can knowingly and willfully damn their own soul to hell by rejecting Jesus when He reveals Himself to you and knocks on your hearts door:

Hebrews 10
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

[MarcR]

Well are we more worthy than they?

What of the couple in 1 Cor 5?

What of Ananias and Sapphira?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

All we know of Ananias and Sapphira is that they were taken out of this world for compromising their testimony.

Nothing is told to us about whether they were ever saved; and nothing is ever said about anyone's Salvation being lost.

 

[Depleted]

God is love, God want every body save ( 2 Peter 3:9) But God is also just, to my knowledge, ther is unforgiven sin, I believe prior to God harden they heart, they do terible sin. I do not believe God did It oN random.

And thus you are that very special person who didn't do any terrible sins?

Saul helped kill one of the Lord's chosen! (Stephen.) Yet, the Lord saved him and renamed him Paul. Which sin is so terrible that God would harden that person's heart, but not Paul's? And the Pharissees! Do you know who they were? They were the group who saw Israel falling far away from God and his Law, so they're the ones who brought the law back to Israel! By today's standards they are the pious men in front at church every weekend, who spent their week contending for the Bible while the rest of us went about our lives. They were the guys with the "Repent for the end is near" posters at the corner trying to convince everyone back to lawfulness and dignity.

How terrible must the sin be and which are the terribles versus the not-so-bads?

I don't think it's random either, but I won't cut it down to not-so-bads are saved only, especially knowing that we tend to revere Pharisees today, before we realize they are Pharisees.

 

[MarcR]

Not everyone who rejects Calvin is Armenian. Even most residents of Armenia who are Armenian do not hold to the teachings of Armenaius. Rejecting the doctrine of specific election does not automatically make one a universalist.

 

[Depleted]

By the way I do not consider myself Arminian or Calvinist. Just for clarity's sake.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Meh, me either, but use the two terms because that's what everyone lumps us down to. lol

 

[notuptome]

It is not a question of being worthy or of committing a particular sinful act, it is a question of whether one can knowingly and willfully damn their own soul to hell by rejecting Jesus when He reveals Himself to you and knocks on your hearts door:

Hebrews 10
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

The OP is asking the question in the light of Calvinism. The OP is endeavoring to draw a distinction between Calvinism and Arminianism.

John 3:18-21 illustrates that men do indeed choose. Only God know their choice.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Depleted]

The theme of God giving people up to their own reprobate minds is woven throughout Scripture. God's Spirit shall not always strive with a man. Although God loves all and is not willing that any should perish, He is not a beggar. When God calls a person to Himself, it is time for that person to make a decision. He may not get another chance.

I'm not sure you meant that word the same way I do, but "call" is relevant. Read John 12. Right before this, not only did Jesus tell he's God and that he's about to die to save some, but the proof happened when the Father audibly agreed with him in front of a big crowd. The gospel, plain and clear to all of them right before this, and yet, most were blinded by God. There was no deciding! God literally called and made sure most would not hear him.

So again, what do you make of this? Because you simply bypassed it to say what you think despite what it says.

 

[notuptome]

All we know of Ananias and Sapphira is that they were taken out of this world for compromising their testimony.

Nothing is told to us about whether they were ever saved; and nothing is ever said about anyone's Salvation being lost.

No argument in fact they could have been more useful to the testimony of the church because they were removed from this life by God.

Not everyone who rejects Calvin is Armenian. Even most residents of Armenia who are Armenian do not hold to the teachings of Armenaius. Rejecting the doctrine of specific election does not automatically make one a universalist.

Ha ha...context is important. I'm not a pencil even though I'm in Pennsylvania. You know the way things go around here.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[PHart]

Meh, me either, but use the two terms because that's what everyone lumps us down to. lol

I'm not into labels unless it's the only way to help a person understand a discussion about a particular subject.

I'm definitely NOT Calvinist, but when I heard John McArthur describe Arminianism I noted that I'm definitely not that either, lol.

 

[Depleted]

Its why he came into the word that the spiritually blind might see and those who think they have spiritual sight might be made blind so that the gospel might have an affect.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

When a person has the work of Christ’s faith in respect to that seen rather than he who is not seen then natural unconverted men make them into gods in the likeness of men.

Not mixing the faith of God in that which they do see or hear.

We are made in his likeness not him in ours. The work does not say to him who formed it...you have no understanding.

The apostate Jews in that way were noted for turning things upside down requiring as sign as that seen before they would believe making the cross gospel without effect . It’s an evil generation, the generation of natural unconverted men that does seek after them.

Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. Act 14:10

That crowd he was talking to wasn't just Jews. There were Greeks in it listening to him, so don't make this a Jew/Gentile thing.

And as for spiritually blind, weren't we all? So if he gave sight to the spiritually blind, wouldn't he give sight to all?

 

[notuptome]

Meh, me either, but use the two terms because that's what everyone lumps us down to. lol

Can't argue that point.

I'm not sure you meant that word the same way I do, but "call" is relevant. Read John 12. Right before this, not only did Jesus tell he's God and that he's about to die to save some, but the proof happened when the Father audibly agreed with him in front of a big crowd. The gospel, plain and clear to all of them right before this, and yet, most were blinded by God. There was no deciding! God literally called and made sure most would not hear him.

So again, what do you make of this? Because you simply bypassed it to say what you think despite what it says.

Well all are blind until the Lord lights them by His Spirit. John 3 says He is the Light that lighteth every man that comes into the world. Scripture also states that God has concluded all in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all.

Election is balanced by Adam's knowledge of good and evil. The curse of sin which is separation from God and death passed on all men so did the knowledge of good and evil. Men must choose because they have the ability through Adams fall.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Depleted]

Not everyone who rejects Calvin is Armenian. Even most residents of Armenia who are Armenian do not hold to the teachings of Armenaius. Rejecting the doctrine of specific election does not automatically make one a universalist.

Armenians -- people who are citizens of Armenia or who still have the heart of that country.

Arminians -- people who tend to believe in free will and we chose God.

Annoying -- that they had to pick such two vastly different words that are spelled so close together that we still get stuck on which is which centuries later. lol

 

[Depleted]

The OP is asking the question in the light of Calvinism. The OP is endeavoring to draw a distinction between Calvinism and Arminianism.

John 3:18-21 illustrates that men do indeed choose. Only God know their choice.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Actually, the OP is asking because I no longer remember how I dealt with scripture like this.

Sort of like remembering my favorite teacher was my 11th grade social studies teacher, but try as I might, I can't remember his name. No one can help me remember his name, unless they happened to have gone to Joliet West High School in the early 1970s, however many people still believe Man has free will so chooses God, God loves everybody, so tries to save them, and I can ask them how they can believe what I used to believe too, but can't remember how.

I don't expect to change any minds. It's kind of like trying to get how a Democrat thinks. I just like to understand how people think differently than I do on something we both agree is true -- like say.... these verses? Every Christian will believe these verses are true. So how do Arminians believe them to be true?

And the one thing that doesn't give me an answer is to go off verses to say what they believe. Specifically, how do they rectify these verses while still believing they chose God and God wants to save everyone, but can't?