We choose Jesus or Jesus choose us
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Actually it is.
And it is MUCH more obvious in the Greek - and that is why I mentioned it.
Even the faith we need to believe has to be given to us - we cannot manufacture it.
I am not confusing the fact that salvation is a gift - it is!
The inescapable fact is that faith is required in order to accept and receive that gift and that faith is also a gift because, 'it is not of yourselves'.
Like I said - you need to meditate on this text - not try to shoot from the hip, because you just missed...
And it is MUCH more obvious in the Greek - and that is why I mentioned it.
Even the faith we need to believe has to be given to us - we cannot manufacture it.
I am not confusing the fact that salvation is a gift - it is!
The inescapable fact is that faith is required in order to accept and receive that gift and that faith is also a gift because, 'it is not of yourselves'.
Like I said - you need to meditate on this text - not try to shoot from the hip, because you just missed...
Wait, you said he paid the sins of the whole world (which means every person who ever lived by your previous stance).
Now you're saying only the sins of the believer.
So, you're now a Calvinist and embrace limited atonement!!! Welcome home, brother! Amen and amen!!!
Now you're saying only the sins of the believer.
So, you're now a Calvinist and embrace limited atonement!!! Welcome home, brother! Amen and amen!!!
No, it is not.
Faith is not manufactured, it is something we choose to have. People need to hear the gospel so they can choose to believe it.
Rom 10:
13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15) And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Eph 1:
13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Rom 10:
9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Acts 16:
30) And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
2 Cor 5:
18) And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19) To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20) Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Good to know!
That is correct.
That's referring to works, or trying to earn our salvation by works that we do. It is not referring to faith.
I suggest you're the one that needs to meditate on that text, and all the other scripture that demonstrate that people have free will, and the ability to choose what they believe.
What we do MATTERS. The things we say to people MATTER. The words we speak to people can help them decide to believe.
We are workers together with God. People can DECIDE.
God did not make us pawns, or puppets, or predetermined programmed robots.
And please do not suggest that I am "shooting from the hip". It's not true.
Faith is not manufactured, it is something we choose to have. People need to hear the gospel so they can choose to believe it.
Rom 10:
13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15) And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Eph 1:
13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Rom 10:
9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Acts 16:
30) And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
2 Cor 5:
18) And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19) To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20) Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Good to know!
That is correct.
That's referring to works, or trying to earn our salvation by works that we do. It is not referring to faith.
I suggest you're the one that needs to meditate on that text, and all the other scripture that demonstrate that people have free will, and the ability to choose what they believe.
What we do MATTERS. The things we say to people MATTER. The words we speak to people can help them decide to believe.
We are workers together with God. People can DECIDE.
God did not make us pawns, or puppets, or predetermined programmed robots.
And please do not suggest that I am "shooting from the hip". It's not true.
I believe anything we have is a gift, our hand is a gift, because we can not manufacture It,
Our brain is a gift, the brain use to decide is a gift, than God invite every body to believe in zhim and be save, It is a gift, because we not deserve It. So salvation is a gift. Ability to believe is a gift, and ability to refuse is a gift, all ability is a gift
now up to us to exercise the gift of accepting Jesus or to refuse It. This is free Will.
Loving God want every body save, not give the gift of faith to few and give the gift of rejecting Jesus to the most.
He is not cruel God.
Our brain is a gift, the brain use to decide is a gift, than God invite every body to believe in zhim and be save, It is a gift, because we not deserve It. So salvation is a gift. Ability to believe is a gift, and ability to refuse is a gift, all ability is a gift
now up to us to exercise the gift of accepting Jesus or to refuse It. This is free Will.
Loving God want every body save, not give the gift of faith to few and give the gift of rejecting Jesus to the most.
He is not cruel God.
I really would like to know how or why "belief" is considered a "work"?
Is it a "work" to believe that Jesus Christ was sent to die for our sins and to believe that God raised him from the dead? How is being persuaded of the truth of anything, a "work"? How is being fully persuaded that God exists, is the creator and ruler of all things, and the provider of eternal salvation through Christ a "work"? How is a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God, a "work"? All of which is required for salvation which comes by faith (belief).
Is it a "work" to believe that Jesus Christ was sent to die for our sins and to believe that God raised him from the dead? How is being persuaded of the truth of anything, a "work"? How is being fully persuaded that God exists, is the creator and ruler of all things, and the provider of eternal salvation through Christ a "work"? How is a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God, a "work"? All of which is required for salvation which comes by faith (belief).
The phrase 'and that not of yourselves' refers entirely to faith.
I can see that you neither believe this nor will you even consider whether it may in fact be true.
I can only suggest that you closely examine the Greek text (there are plenty of helps online that would be suitable).
I have read all the texts that you have posted - nothing wrong with them, but they do not prove your point.
Faith to believe is not innate...
I can see that you neither believe this nor will you even consider whether it may in fact be true.
I can only suggest that you closely examine the Greek text (there are plenty of helps online that would be suitable).
I have read all the texts that you have posted - nothing wrong with them, but they do not prove your point.
Faith to believe is not innate...
Faith is not some magical thing . . . In fact "faith" and "belief" are the same Greek word, come from the same root word and basically carry the same meaning throughout scripture. To have faith in something is to be fully persuaded, to suffer one's self to be persuaded; to be induced to believe: i.e. to have faith: in a thing; to believe; to be persuaded of a thing concerning a person (definition B - Strong's) . . . We are to believe in Jesus Christ, confess him as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead in order to be saved. That "faith" comes by hearing and hearing from the word of God - we hear the word of God and are fully persuaded that everything therein is true. Fully persuaded that God is who he says he is - fully persuaded to the point we trust in all that is written concerning our Lord . . . that is "faith". A person has to make a decision on whether or not to believe (have faith) what is written.
No, it does not.
That's right.
I have considered it deeply. I have spent a lot of time on that verse and many others that Calvinists use to support their beliefs. I am convinced from scripture that Calvinism is not true.
I am well aware of the tools available online. I'm convinced that the Greek does not support your position any more than the English does.
Nice to know that you don't see anything wrong with them...
But they go a long ways towards disproving Calvinism.
Anyone can freely choose to believe.
You can have the last post. I'll be away for a few days. Good night.
That's right.
I have considered it deeply. I have spent a lot of time on that verse and many others that Calvinists use to support their beliefs. I am convinced from scripture that Calvinism is not true.
I am well aware of the tools available online. I'm convinced that the Greek does not support your position any more than the English does.
Nice to know that you don't see anything wrong with them...
But they go a long ways towards disproving Calvinism.
Anyone can freely choose to believe.
You can have the last post. I'll be away for a few days. Good night.
Nobody, especially me, is suggesting that faith is magical in any sense of the word.
Nothing that you have said is wrong!
It is however incomplete because it is not addressing faith as a first cause issue.
For example:
'That "faith" comes by hearing and hearing from the word of God - we hear the word of God and are fully persuaded that everything therein is true.'
Sounds good but doesn't address at all why one starts to listen, and then hear, in the first place.
Also, faith and mental assent are most emphatically different things.
Understanding the claims of the Gospel does not equate to an acceptance of its significance for one personally.
No one can really hear or accept the Gospel without a sovereign work of the Holy Spirit.
I make my stand on this and will happily agree to disagree with those that contest this...
Nothing that you have said is wrong!
It is however incomplete because it is not addressing faith as a first cause issue.
For example:
'That "faith" comes by hearing and hearing from the word of God - we hear the word of God and are fully persuaded that everything therein is true.'
Sounds good but doesn't address at all why one starts to listen, and then hear, in the first place.
Also, faith and mental assent are most emphatically different things.
Understanding the claims of the Gospel does not equate to an acceptance of its significance for one personally.
No one can really hear or accept the Gospel without a sovereign work of the Holy Spirit.
I make my stand on this and will happily agree to disagree with those that contest this...
God doesn't make me sit, listen, and believe what I am hearing. Faith, which is belief, comes from hearing - I hear with my ears and I either believe it or not . . . . I never said anything about mental assent but it does take a bit of mental capacity to hear, understand and believe.
I don't receive the holy Spirit until I have heard and believed . . .
He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) John 7:38,39
In whom you also trusted, after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that you believed, you were sealed with the holy Spirit of promise . . . Ephesians 1:13
That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved. For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9,10
I don't receive the holy Spirit until I have heard and believed . . .
He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) John 7:38,39
In whom you also trusted, after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that you believed, you were sealed with the holy Spirit of promise . . . Ephesians 1:13
That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved. For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9,10
God is love. But love is not God. You make God a slave to His love.
God is not always acting just on this one specifics of His character.
----
He commanded to kill out whole nations in the middle East.
He killed Uzzah for trying to catch the falling ark of covenant.
In the end, its Him who prepares hell for unbelieving people.
----
There are other reasons, not just love, that leads to His actions. Realize this.
God is not always acting just on this one specifics of His character.
----
He commanded to kill out whole nations in the middle East.
He killed Uzzah for trying to catch the falling ark of covenant.
In the end, its Him who prepares hell for unbelieving people.
----
There are other reasons, not just love, that leads to His actions. Realize this.
I do not understand your question.
God cannot be put into one definition. "God is love" is not the only one description we have. (God is also: fire, lion, eagle, light, rock...)
God's actions are result of what is best generally, not of what is "the biggest lovable thing we humans can imagine in that specific situation".
For example, you can be a loving father, it can be your characteristics. That does not mean that you would not hurt your children if your children would want to kill somebody. You are not a slave to your love.
God cannot be put into one definition. "God is love" is not the only one description we have. (God is also: fire, lion, eagle, light, rock...)
God's actions are result of what is best generally, not of what is "the biggest lovable thing we humans can imagine in that specific situation".
For example, you can be a loving father, it can be your characteristics. That does not mean that you would not hurt your children if your children would want to kill somebody. You are not a slave to your love.
Dear brother, you should study and read on The Attributes of God in this link, click for free read. This will help you tremendously.
God is love, love is not God.
Sneak is animal, animal may sneak.
to say animal not sneak is false, because sneak is animal
We better say animal not always sneak.
You Said, God actions are result the best generally, is that Not love. If you do what ever you can for the best of your son, is that not love.
To me God is love and just. Love do not mean never punish any body. If God punish sinner, It not Cancel His love atribut.
He love every body in general, so He do not want people kill each other, for the sake of love humanitarian, He punish the killer.
He just because He love. Just is a tool to do love. That is Why Jesus say:"The greatest law is love, all the law base oN love.
do not steal, why? If you love your son you not steal his toy.
God declare love all and doesn't any perish, why you believe God Pre elect some go to hell?
Sneak is animal, animal may sneak.
to say animal not sneak is false, because sneak is animal
We better say animal not always sneak.
You Said, God actions are result the best generally, is that Not love. If you do what ever you can for the best of your son, is that not love.
To me God is love and just. Love do not mean never punish any body. If God punish sinner, It not Cancel His love atribut.
He love every body in general, so He do not want people kill each other, for the sake of love humanitarian, He punish the killer.
He just because He love. Just is a tool to do love. That is Why Jesus say:"The greatest law is love, all the law base oN love.
do not steal, why? If you love your son you not steal his toy.
God declare love all and doesn't any perish, why you believe God Pre elect some go to hell?
Did you leave off "brother" to subtily suggest I'm lost? You think I am lost, right?
Are you in addition also saying I called God a liar?
You don't understand the context of 2 Peter 3:9. It is not about each and every person who has ever lived. The entire context is speaking specifically of the elect, and neither you nor I know who they are. But God does.
Oh, so if you don't think there was a good reason for God to choose to save a person, you have a problem with that. You don't like that, to you it is not fair. It's all about how you feel about it, and to you God must fit into your logic, and follow your feelings or He cannot be God.
Sounds to me like role reversal because frankly that is what it is.
Pre-electing isn't an attribute. You don't even know what an attribute is, obviously, which is why I offered you a free read online.
For the record, the only good reason He elects is due to His choosing to do so, and based upon nothing the person has done, good or bad, but only for His own purpose He does this. You sound just like the man Paul describes with Romans 9:20. You have a problem with God electing and being Sovereign in doing so.
Yep. And he can exercise either love or justice when and how He wants, and howsoever he desires to do so.
Are you in addition also saying I called God a liar?
You don't understand the context of 2 Peter 3:9. It is not about each and every person who has ever lived. The entire context is speaking specifically of the elect, and neither you nor I know who they are. But God does.
Oh, so if you don't think there was a good reason for God to choose to save a person, you have a problem with that. You don't like that, to you it is not fair. It's all about how you feel about it, and to you God must fit into your logic, and follow your feelings or He cannot be God.
Sounds to me like role reversal because frankly that is what it is.
Pre-electing isn't an attribute. You don't even know what an attribute is, obviously, which is why I offered you a free read online.
For the record, the only good reason He elects is due to His choosing to do so, and based upon nothing the person has done, good or bad, but only for His own purpose He does this. You sound just like the man Paul describes with Romans 9:20. You have a problem with God electing and being Sovereign in doing so.
Yep. And he can exercise either love or justice when and how He wants, and howsoever he desires to do so.