Spiritual Confusion

[Lighthearted]

Well that is between you and the Lord, but the Scripture is quite clear, and that is our ultimate authority.

I'm led by the Holy Spirit. The first time God wanted to speak through me at church I hesitated, so He used someone else. I felt in my Spirit that I had let Him down so I promised I would never hesitate again. When you cling to Him and walk in His will, you better believe He will use you. Male or female. We are all children of the King!

 

[Issachar92]

I'm led by the Holy Spirit. The first time God wanted to speak through me at church I hesitated, so He used someone else. I felt in my Spirit that I had let Him down so I promised I would never hesitate again. When you cling to Him and walk in His will, you better believe He will use you. Male or female. We are all children of the King!

So lemme get this straight, the Holy Spirit led you to disobey New Covenant Scriptures written by the Apostle Paul? The Apostle to the gentiles? Dont it sound kinda strange? Its kinda like an old covenant jew who said that God led me to eat pig in the spirit.

 

[Issachar92]

I gots to spread some reputation around before I can give it to brother Nehemiah again

 

[Bogadile]

plus Gnostic corruptions of the Bible claiming to be the true Word of God while attacking the fundamentals of the faith (starting with the Divine preservation of Scripture).

I urge you to study this further. None of the translations (NASB etc) attack the fundamentals of the faith. You can show the Gospel, the trinity and all other core doctrines from these bibles.
I was heavily against the newer versions as well, but my interest in the issue was ignited by a post I read on here by sister Angela, and the more I look into it, the more I agree with James White that the KJVOnlyist movement is actually a hinderance in defending the inerrancy of Scriptures against other religions and the skeptics. I ate up the textus receptus arguments due to lack of knowledge, but many of their claims are simply untrue.

I know this is not a KJVOnly thread but I really encourage you to study this issue more, it is an interesting read, and it will put your mind at ease when you realize that the devil is not mass producing bibles that are easier to read for the common people. The New Testament was written in the language of the common people as well, Koine greek.

 

[preacher4truth]

Sad, things like this happen when people place their own subjective feelings above the authority of Scripture!

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I urge you to study this further. None of the translations (NASB etc) attack the fundamentals of the faith. You can show the Gospel, the trinity and all other core doctrines from these bibles.
I was heavily against the newer versions as well, but my interest in the issue was ignited by a post I read on here by sister Angela, and the more I look into it, the more I agree with James White that the KJVOnlyist movement is actually a hinderance in defending the inerrancy of Scriptures against other religions and the skeptics. I ate up the textus receptus arguments due to lack of knowledge, but many of their claims are simply untrue.

I know this is not a KJVOnly thread but I really encourage you to study this issue more, it is an interesting read, and it will put your mind at ease when you realize that the devil is not mass producing bibles that are easier to read for the common people. The New Testament was written in the language of the common people as well, Koine greek.

I have found, over the years, that KJ's onlyists are often immovable on their stance that this translation is actually inspired, as were the original texts by the original authors, so it is rare they will acknowledge that it is 'only' a translation

this forum is replete with this debate as can be seen in a search of the archives

I agree with what you say about studying further

 

[7seasrekeyed]

So lemme get this straight, the Holy Spirit led you to disobey New Covenant Scriptures written by the Apostle Paul? The Apostle to the gentiles? Dont it sound kinda strange? Its kinda like an old covenant jew who said that God led me to eat pig in the spirit.

how well do you know the NT scripturers?

it seems you are not aware of the FEMALE participants in the body of believers filled with the Holy Spirit who are the foundation of our NT scriptures

there were female prophets in the early church and in the OT as well

Several women are described as prophetesses. In the Old Testament we have the following five:

1. Miriam (Exodus 15:20-21)
2. Deborah (Judges 4:4)
3. Huldah (2 Kings 22:14)
4. Noadiah (Nehemiah 6:14)
5. Isaiah’s wife (Isaiah 8:3

The Jewish Talmud counts some additional women as prophets including Sarah, Hannah (mother of Samuel), Abigail (wife of David) and Esther. However, these are not called prophets or prophetesses in the Bible.
In the New Testament, there are another five:

1. Anna (Luke 2:36)
2. Philip’s four daughters (Acts 21:8-9

Although not called prophetesses, both Mary mother of Jesus (Luke 2:46-55) and Elizabeth mother of John Baptist (Luke 2:41-45) both made prophecies.


to be sure, there are also false prophetesses just as there are false prophets mentionned in the Bible along with false teachers and prophets of today

of course we cannot verify if someone in the forum here is moving in any gift as this is a forum

however, stating that someone is disobedient because of ignorance of what scripture records is kind of weird in light of what you write

thing is, as I say so often, this is a discussion forum and not a teaching platform

it seems some people are quick to make snap judgements for the very reason that it IS a forum and in that sense, an equal 'playing field'

so then everyone runs to the Bible to 'prove' their opinion

however, as you can see above, there ARE women used of God and pretty much the same today

note I am confining my comments to what is actually written and not offering a preference either way

 

[Zi]

Nobody will lift Jesus up by inspiration of the devil.
Nobody inspired by the Holy Spirit will make themselves the focus.

If you question the source yet hear a message of Jesus, then you need to reread Corinthians

 

[MarcR]

As we approach the end of the Church Age and the Second Coming of Christ, we can -- and we should -- expect more and more spiritual confusion.

There is a thread on wrestling with the forces of darkness, and one of the ways in which evil spirits are battling Christians (as well as those who seek the truth and salvation) is to sow more and more spiritual confusion in society at large, and within the churches and the minds of individual Christians.

Everything from the nature of Christ, to the true Gospel, to the essential doctrines of Christianity are being attacked, and undermined, and perverted, so that people are confused as to what is true and what is false. Add to that the attempts to revive Moses and the Old Covenant and impose it on Christians, and people don't know what to believe and what to reject.

Add to that the false doctrines that God chooses some for salvation, and the bulk of humanity for damnation, and a budding evangelist will wonder why the Gospel should even be preached (after all God has already made up His mind). Then we have dozens of false Gospels floating around, plus Gnostic ideas, plus Gnostic corruptions of the Bible claiming to be the true Word of God while attacking the fundamentals of the faith (starting with the Divine preservation of Scripture).

Then we have the ordination of homosexual clergy, and the ordination of women (who should keep silence in churches), as well as the promotion of glossolalia over genuine biblical tongues (glossais). Add to that the false televangelists and preachers with their Word of Faith doctrines, and their false notions about the finished work of Christ, and what you have is total spiritual confusion.

But Christians -- genuine children of God -- need not be confused, or deluded, or duped. We do have the true Word of God in our hands (the Authorized Version) and we do have the Holy Spirit indwelling our spirits. So if Christians are willing to labor in the Word and doctrine, "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth will make you free" ( John 8:23). But how is that possible? God has already given us the answer, so just believe it and act on it. It is God the Holy Spirit who reveals the truth to us.

But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things...But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1 John 2:20,27).

Random thoughts:

1 Co 14:34-35
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
KJV


We find this only in 1Cor 14. In the culture of Corinth, only women who were cult prostitutes in the temple of Diana went unveiled or spoke out in public. If it were intended as a universal principle, I believe letters to other churches would mention it.


1 Ti 3:1-5
3 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
KJV

I believe that bishop, overseer, in this sense means the same thing as pastor.
Why the husband of one wife? I believe that in principle God desires male leadership in the church, not because women are inferior in any way; but because people make mistakes, and when mistakes are made in church leadership God wants a man to take the heat.

Scripture says that homosexuality is an abomination to God and no laws of men can override God's authority.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

when mistakes are made in church leadership God wants a man to take the heat.

I don't see that preference in scripture other than Eve being seduced and Adam disobeying

Sapphira was struck dead right along with her husband..

personally, I would not agree with a woman pastor, but women are certainly allowed to participate and are also the recipients of spiritual gifts

I think that was possibly the main objection regarding what Lighthearted posted

then again, when a person is a cessationist, prob won't matter what is said (not referring to you) or shown from scripture

 

[FlSnookman7]

Jesus also choose a woman to be the first evangelist...

 

[NayborBear]

Methinks a lot of what is going on, and has been going on, one could put sum it up, much like what Jehovah, and Lord God, (consolidate to the "government" that is on the shoulders of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ) spoke to the prophet Ezekiel. Chapter 13, to be more precise. Use the KJV, as the NIV really looses/abuses the translation, come about verse 19 er so.
We are seeing "a rain" from the Lord, and the breaking down of walls, and queries by some, and a defending, by others, when "a/the" wall/s, which had been daubed with "untempered mortar", are washed away. when this occurs? they leave "gaps", or breeches! Don't hafta tell ya who comes in so quickly to "fill" em, with yet even more untempered mortar.
We're seeing God snatching away these people who prophecy from the vainness of thier hearts words that God did not give them!

People get rather testy, when confronted with precepts, that pretty much tells them, that most EVERYTHING you thought was true? ISN'T!

Teaching, in a "spiritually/politically correct manner" (so as not to offend), is precisely what God is speaking AGAINST, in this 13th chapter.
Ok1...I've said my piece! Back to the regularly scheduled kiniptions.

 

[Lighthearted]

So lemme get this straight, the Holy Spirit led you to disobey New Covenant Scriptures written by the Apostle Paul? The Apostle to the gentiles? Dont it sound kinda strange? Its kinda like an old covenant jew who said that God led me to eat pig in the spirit.

I'm not here to argue. I'm stating a fact of my own experiences as I walk with God and seek to fulfill His will in my life...
Do you testify to your experiences as you walk with God?
With God all things are possible.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I have found, over the years, that KJ's onlyists are often immovable on their stance that this translation is actually inspired, as were the original texts by the original authors, so it is rare they will acknowledge that it is 'only' a translation

Just to be clear, the KJV is indeed a translation but not an "inspired" Bible. Only the autographs (which have long since perished) were inspired writings. But it is not just "only" a translation, since the stated goal of the translators was to make out of many good ones, one which could not be anything less than the Authorized Version (appointed to be read in churches).

But there is a doctrine -- which is grossly neglected -- and which was taught by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. That is the doctrine of the Divine preservation of Scripture. Jesus (who Himself is the Word of God) deemed the entire Old Testament to be "the Scriptures" and they are also called "the Holy Scriptures". Since they began to be written about 2,000 years before Christ (starting with Job) how could the Lord be so positive that what He read in the synagogue at Nazareth was exactly what Isaiah had written? Because the Scriptures were carefully and meticulously copied, and copied from copies, over hundreds of years. And that is how God preserved the Scriptures (this also applies to the NT).

The scribes were a class of scholars set apart to faithfully copy the Scriptures, and the final group were the Masoretes. They produced the Masoretic Text (dated around AD 900). When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered (1946/47) they found the Great Isaiah Scroll among them (dated round 200 BC). The amazing thing was that when they compared the two (separated by almost 1100 years) the two were practically identical. That showed the world with documentary evidence that the Divine preservation of Scripture was a reality.

But what happened in from the 19th century onwards was that the Higher Critics attacked the OT and the doctrine of Divine inspiration, while the Lower Critics attacked the doctrine of the Divine preservation of Scripture. And so "critical editions" of the OT began to be published and accepted. These critical editions incorporated corruptions from other writings such as the LXX, the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Aramaic Targums, the writings of heretics such as Aquila, Symmachus, and Theodotian, etc. and so now Kittle's Biblia Hebraica pretends to be the Masoretic Text, whereas it is a corrupted Old Testament. And this is the critical text which supports all the modern Bible versions.

But when the KJV translators (and other translators of the Reformation) were translating the OT, they had the pure printed Masoretic Text in hand. This was the Rabbinic Bible (Mikraot Gedolot) published by Daniel Bomberg in Venice (1524/25) and edited by Jacob ben Chayyim. They also consulted the First Rabbinic Bible edited by Felix Pratensis.

So if you had to choose between a rotten apple and an unblemished apple, which one would you choose? The answer is obvious. But Satan has manged to trick Christians into believing that the modern versions are superior to the KJV, when in fact they are the exact opposite, and based on corruptions of the Hebrew and Greek texts. We will deal with the Greek text some other time, but this should be enough to provide the rationale as to why many Christians refuse to use anything other than the Authorized Version. Even the Jewish Publication Society (JPS) in the early 20th century used the KJV as their English Translation of the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible). And what too many forget is that for about 300 years, the KJV was THE English Bible for all English-speaking people world wide (which included the entire British Empire).

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Just to be clear, the KJV is indeed a translation but not an "inspired" Bible. Only the autographs (which have long since perished) were inspired writings. But it is not just "only" a translation, since the stated goal of the translators was to make out of many good ones, one which could not be anything less than the Authorized Version (appointed to be read in churches).

But there is a doctrine -- which is grossly neglected -- and which was taught by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. That is the doctrine of the Divine preservation of Scripture. Jesus (who Himself is the Word of God) deemed the entire Old Testament to be "the Scriptures" and they are also called "the Holy Scriptures". Since they began to be written about 2,000 years before Christ (starting with Job) how could the Lord be so positive that what He read in the synagogue at Nazareth was exactly what Isaiah had written? Because the Scriptures were carefully and meticulously copied, and copied from copies, over hundreds of years. And that is how God preserved the Scriptures (this also applies to the NT).

The scribes were a class of scholars set apart to faithfully copy the Scriptures, and the final group were the Masoretes. They produced the Masoretic Text (dated around AD 900). When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered (1946/47) they found the Great Isaiah Scroll among them (dated round 200 BC). The amazing thing was that when they compared the two (separated by almost 1100 years) the two were practically identical. That showed the world with documentary evidence that the Divine preservation of Scripture was a reality.

But what happened in from the 19th century onwards was that the Higher Critics attacked the OT and the doctrine of Divine inspiration, while the Lower Critics attacked the doctrine of the Divine preservation of Scripture. And so "critical editions" of the OT began to be published and accepted. These critical editions incorporated corruptions from other writings such as the LXX, the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Aramaic Targums, the writings of heretics such as Aquila, Symmachus, and Theodotian, etc. and so now Kittle's Biblia Hebraica pretends to be the Masoretic Text, whereas it is a corrupted Old Testament. And this is the critical text which supports all the modern Bible versions.

But when the KJV translators (and other translators of the Reformation) were translating the OT, they had the pure printed Masoretic Text in hand. This was the Rabbinic Bible (Mikraot Gedolot) published by Daniel Bomberg in Venice (1524/25) and edited by Jacob ben Chayyim. They also consulted the First Rabbinic Bible edited by Felix Pratensis.

So if you had to choose between a rotten apple and an unblemished apple, which one would you choose? The answer is obvious. But Satan has manged to trick Christians into believing that the modern versions are superior to the KJV, when in fact they are the exact opposite, and based on corruptions of the Hebrew and Greek texts. We will deal with the Greek text some other time, but this should be enough to provide the rationale as to why many Christians refuse to use anything other than the Authorized Version. Even the Jewish Publication Society (JPS) in the early 20th century used the KJV as their English Translation of the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible). And what too many forget is that for about 300 years, the KJV was THE English Bible for all English-speaking people world wide (which included the entire British Empire).

I didn't get my info out of the blue

a good number of KJ only enthusiasts on this site have stated they believe the KJ to be inspired. good to know that you do not, because that alone presents quite a few problems for those who believe that it is

personally, I actually grew up on the KJV and am very familiar with it

but I also have NIV, NAS, the Amplified, the New English Bible and every other translation is available online 24/7

But when the KJV translators (and other translators of the Reformation) were translating the OT, they had the pure printed Masoretic Text in hand. This was the Rabbinic Bible (Mikraot Gedolot) published by Daniel Bomberg in Venice (1524/25) and edited by Jacob ben Chayyim. They also consulted the First Rabbinic Bible edited by Felix Pratensis.

everything you have written has been addressed somewhere in the archives of the forum and let's be honest, the KJV has a good amount of translation in it as well



here's a sampling:

[TABLE="width: 933"]
[TR]
[TD]KING JAMES VERSION

1. HOLY GHOST
2. JEHOVAH
3. JUPITER & MERCURIUS
4. MOUNT SION
5. NEW TESTAMENT
6. A FALLING AWAY
7. GREAT TRIBULATION
8. ANTICHRIST
9. IN THE HAND/FOREHEAD
10. GIANTS
11. END OF THE WORLD
12. EASTER
[/TD]
[TD]GREEK / HEBREW

1. HOLY SPIRIT
2. YHWH
3. ZEUS & HERMES
4. MOUNT ZION
5. NEW COVENANT
6. THE FALLING AWAY
7. THE GREAT TRIBULATION
8. THE ANTICHRIST
9. ON THE HAND/FOREHEAD
10. NEPHILIM
11. END OF THE AGE
12. PASSOVER
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[7seasrekeyed]

So if you had to choose between a rotten apple and an unblemished apple, which one would you choose? The answer is obvious. But Satan has manged to trick Christians into believing that the modern versions are superior to the KJV, when in fact they are the exact opposite, and based on corruptions of the Hebrew and Greek texts. We will deal with the Greek text some other time, but this should be enough to provide the rationale as to why many Christians refuse to use anything other than the Authorized Version. Even the Jewish Publication Society (JPS) in the early 20th century used the KJV as their English Translation of the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible). And what too many forget is that for about 300 years, the KJV was THE English Bible for all English-speaking people world wide (which included the entire British Empire).

sorry, but the above is definitely KJV only speak

that Bible also has errors

I think the best is to have several versions on hand, whether hard copy or online, check out the lexicons, comments etc and of course pray

we are all fallible and in the end we need a clear conscience before God...NOT men...if before God, the other will be in place

 

[Dino246]

Just to be clear, the KJV is indeed a translation but not an "inspired" Bible. Only the autographs (which have long since perished) were inspired writings. But it is not just "only" a translation, since the stated goal of the translators was to make out of many good ones, one which could not be anything less than the Authorized Version (appointed to be read in churches).

I agree with your first sentence. The second, while not erroneous in its historical assertions, fails in its conclusion on a logical test. As I have stated previously, the intent of the translators, however noble, in no way guarantees that they achieved their goal. I'm not sure why you continue to assert this.

Your statement also confuses the issue of "authorization" (which was done by the reigning king, not any ecclesial body) with some degree of translational accuracy or authority. The KJV has errors, some of which 7seasrekeyed shared, so we can toss the "accuracy" part. The "authority" part can be tossed because the body doing the translation had, and still has, no official authority over English-speaking peoples. If it ever had any authority, it was limited to the Anglican church.

So what if the KJV was "authorized" and "appointed to be read in churches"; if the text doesn't stand up to examination, all the fancy words applied to the compilation are as meaningful as a soft drink ad campaign.

 

[Muzungu256]

Dino246 has a car in his avatar. true story u see

 

[MarcR]

I agree with your first sentence. The second, while not erroneous in its historical assertions, fails in its conclusion on a logical test. As I have stated previously, the intent of the translators, however noble, in no way guarantees that they achieved their goal. I'm not sure why you continue to assert this.

Your statement also confuses the issue of "authorization" (which was done by the reigning king, not any ecclesial body) with some degree of translational accuracy or authority. The KJV has errors, some of which 7seasrekeyed shared, so we can toss the "accuracy" part. The "authority" part can be tossed because the body doing the translation had, and still has, no official authority over English-speaking peoples. If it ever had any authority, it was limited to the Anglican church.

So what if the KJV was "authorized" and "appointed to be read in churches"; if the text doesn't stand up to examination, all the fancy words applied to the compilation are as meaningful as a soft drink ad campaign.

I'm not sure we agree (or disagree) on the nature of inspired writing.

As I see it:

God chose to use imperfect men to both record and transmit His perfect Word.

I believe that God knew that there would be human error both in the recording and the transmission of His Word.

I believe that God's inspiration superintends both the recording and the transmission of His word to the extent that human error is not permitted to corrupt or substantially alter the intent of His message to every reader. All errors are non-essential to a proper understanding of His Word. I believe that Spiritual truth can only be understood under the guidance of the same Holy Spirit who inspired the original text.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

So what if the KJV was "authorized" and "appointed to be read in churches"; if the text doesn't stand up to examination, all the fancy words applied to the compilation are as meaningful as a soft drink ad campaign.

sounds like: [FONT=&quot]If King James’s English was good enough for Jesus and St. Paul, it’s good enough for me
the bible came about by royal mandate

the KJ replaced the Geneva Bible...it was not the first translation as so many think

it seems not actual evidence of King James actually authorizing it actually exists...but most historians believe that he did so

following is some interesting info from this site

[/FONT]The discovery of many ancient Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, especially after 1931, provided the committee of scholars with important new sources, including the information, which recent discoveries have provided for a better understanding of the vocabulary and idioms of the Greek New Testament language.

Since 1870, when the official undertaking of the revision of the King James Version took place, an enormous number of papyri have been unearthed in Egypt, containing private letters, official reports, petitions, business accounts and various other records of the activities of the first centuries. These findings were thoroughly studied and proved that many of the Greek words of the New Testament were used in the everyday life of the people of the first centuries and were not special words, which belonged to, what was considered Biblical Greek.

These discoveries provided the committee of scholars of the 'Revised Standard Version' with valuable material not available to previous translators. Another factor promoting the decision to revise the King James Version was that its archaic form of expression of English was not clearly understood by contemporary people.

The use of such words as "thou", "thee", "thy" and "thine" and the verb endings, "est", edst", "eth" and "th", made it difficult for most people to understand it. More than 300 words in the King James Version are misleading in light of today's understanding. This was one of the reasons that led the Council to revise the King James Version.

It must be noted that the 'Revised Standard Version is not a new translation, nor is it a paraphrase of the English language; it is a revision of the King James Version.