Not By Works

VCO · Oct 5, 2017

2 Timothy 4:3-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, will multiply teachers for themselves because they have an itch to hear something new.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] They will turn away from hearing the truth and will turn aside to myths.

2 Peter 2:1-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, and will bring swift destruction on themselves.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Many will follow their unrestrained ways, and the way of truth will be blasphemed because of them.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] They will exploit you in their greed with deceptive words. Their condemnation, ⌊pronounced⌋ long ago, is not idle, and their destruction does not sleep.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For if God didn’t spare the angels who sinned but threw them down into Tartarus and delivered them to be kept in chains of darkness until judgment;

Matthew 24:11-12 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Because lawlessness will multiply, the love of many will grow cold.

Matthew 24:24-25 (HCSB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] False messiahs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Take note: I have told you in advance.

2 Timothy 3:1-5 (GWT)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] You must understand this: In the last days there will be violent periods of time.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] People will be selfish and love money. They will brag, be arrogant, and use abusive language. They will curse their parents, show no gratitude, have no respect for what is holy,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] and lack normal affection for their families. They will refuse to make peace with anyone. They will be slanderous, lack self-control, be brutal, and have no love for what is good.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] They will be traitors. They will be reckless and conceited. They will love pleasure rather than God.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] They will appear to have a godly life, but they will not let its power change them. Stay away from such people.

TruthTalk · Oct 5, 2017

SovereignGrace said:

Worshiped and served God for 10 years, 1978-1988, music ministry, bible study, evangelism explosion, pizza after Sunday night worship. I was baptized and followed up with a 12 week course of the fundamentals of the Faith, so that I could get grounded in my "New Faith" in Jesus. Lots of counterfeit gospels were around at that time and I did not want to fall prey to a false Christ, everywhere. People called us "Jesus Freaks", back then....

VCO · Oct 5, 2017

PeterJens said:

Peter your PROBLEM AND CONFUSION is you are STARTING FROM THE WRONG POINT EVERY TIME. HERE IS THE REAL STARTING POINT:

John 3:3-7 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Jesus replied, “I assure you: Unless someone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
[SUP]4 [/SUP] “But how can anyone be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked Him. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born?”
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Jesus answered, “I assure you: Unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Do not be amazed that I told you that you must be born again.

You MUST have a Human Spirit that was Birthed to Eternal Life by the Holy Spirit, and HE pours GOD's LOVE into your HEART. Everything else SPAWNS out of that LOVE including OBEDIENCE. ROM. 5:5

PHart · Oct 6, 2017

TruthTalk said:

Seriously, you having to believe doesn't make the gospel all about you. God does not do our believing for us. He provides the faith to believe, which is why we can not boast, but he does not do our believing for us. We're not robots.

See, look...

"the gospel, for it (the gospel) is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes" (Romans 1:16 NASB)

The power of salvation is in the gospel not in your believing, but that hardly makes it so you do not have to believe. Paul said it is the power of salvation for those who believe. That's the part you and I do in salvation. Believing is how you access the power of salvation that does the saving.

PHart · Oct 6, 2017

Muzungu256 said:

I've come to the conclusion that these strange doctrines in the church are ultimately the result of the church's lack of understanding about Paul's 'law vs. faith/grace' teaching. It just keeps getting worse and worse. Now even prayer (as you point out) and believing are damnable 'works' so that if you think you have to do those you are trying to earn your own salvation. How absurd.

Muzungu256 said:

It simply means that the righteous works we do can't make us righteous. The only way to be made righteous, and therefore eligible for entry into the kingdom, is to have your unrighteousness forgiven. You can not make yourself righteous by doing the righteous things commanded in the law. That is the error of the works gospel.

But that doesn't mean we do nothing to get saved for fear of that being us trying to save ourselves, as is being argued here. Obviously, we have to believe, and we have to ask to receive the free gift of righteousness, and we have to receive the free gift of righteousness, then we have to remain firm and stand on the truth of the gospel. These are all things you 'do' to receive and stay in salvation, but the point is, none of them in and of themselves makes you righteous.

So it is this fundamental misunderstanding of Paul's 'faith vs. works for justification' argument, fueled by the error of Calvinism, that has led to all these weird doctrines revolving around the 'God does it all, you don't do anything to be saved' doctrines.

This may be hard for you to grasp since this error of understanding is so profound in the church today, but I will be glad to break the argument down step by step for you if you want me to. The thing to remember is, it's not that we don't do anything to receive justification (believe, pray, repent, etc.), it's just that the things we do are not what literally makes us righteous people. The power is in God's forgiveness and the wiping away of our unrigheousness and replacing it with God's righteousness. That is the only thing that can make us righteous and eligible to be in the kingdom of God.

TruthTalk · Oct 6, 2017

PHart said:

You continually misquote scripture to suit your counterfeit gospel; the bible clearly say's, "God is the Power in Salvation", it does not say, "Salvation is the Power, to those who believe." Can you not see how you twist the holy scriptures to suit your false gospel.

Romans1:16 say's:

"for it is the "Power of God", for salvation to everyone who believe's" (right theology).

your quote say's: "it is the "Power of salvation" for those who believe." (wrong theology).

Quote Phart: "That's the part you and I do in salvation. Believing is "how you access the power of salvation" , that does the saving. - Dead men cannot "believe the gospel"

You were spiritually "dead" when God saved you; God quickened your spiritually dead soul so that you could believe the gospel, (The Good News).

"As for you, "you were dead" in your transgressions and sins," Ephesians2;1

Yes, "we are not robots", and you are still feeding us your false gospel.

PHart · Oct 6, 2017

dcontroversal said:

I can't tell if you believe that believers will always believe (and therefore, will always be saved), or if you believe that even if you stop believing you're still saved. If you believe the former then you are in agreement with me that you have to believe and keep believing to be saved, and that it's just that you are sure God will always be doing that believing for you.

joefizz · Oct 6, 2017

PHart said:

God believing for somebody?
I just wanna burst out laughing right now.

loveme1 · Oct 6, 2017

PHart said:

Romans 11

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in hisgoodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

PHart · Oct 6, 2017

TruthTalk said:

We can plainly see in Paul's words the power of salvation is the gospel of salvation itself, but a power that only belongs to those who believe. But you folks are making it out to be that if we do the believing then that's the power of salvation and therefore, a false gospel. How absurd.

The power to be saved is in the gospel of salvation itself, not in the believing that accesses that salvation. So don't be afraid to be the one doing the believing--that's not where the power of salvation lies. And besides, you can't boast in your believing because you can't believe without God's gracious gift of faith so you can trust/believe the gospel, and because the power is all in the gospel of salvation itself, not in the believing.

TruthTalk said:

Dead men can believe the gospel because God testifies to them through the Holy Spirit speaking the Word of Faith to them that the gospel is true. And because of that visitation of faith through the Holy Spirit dead men can then trust and believe and receive the indwelling Holy Spirit as a result of that believing and be saved. If this is new to you (which it probably is) read 1 John 5:5-12. If you want to take apart that portion of scripture in discussion we can.

TruthTalk said:

Is your understanding of predestination that God made you someone who can and will believe the gospel? If so, then we are robots in your theology. That's a meaningless gospel. Big whoop.....God pre-programmed us to choose Him apart from our own desire and will to do so, having assigned to us the desire to choose Him apart from any consideration of whether or not we would want to choose Him. That's not very glorious. But it is glorious when God can win over people by his love to choose Him.

PHart · Oct 6, 2017

joefizz said:

Me too. It's an absurd doctrine. But that is what we are being told in this thread. They're telling us that is what happens in salvation or else we would be trying to earn our own salvation if we did the believing, as if believing was a work of the damnable works gospel.

We don't have to worry about OUR believing somehow being a self righteous work because, 1) the power of salvation is in the gospel of forgiveness itself, not in the believing (believing only accesses the power of salvation), and 2) Paul plainly said believing is in complete and utter contrast to the works that can not justify.

The bottom line is, we are made righteous and saved because God forgave us, not because we made ourselves righteous by doing righteous things. But that hardly means we do not do anything ourselves to lay hold of that which makes us righteous.

There is no boast in us laying hold of salvation through our believing so as to make that laying hold of salvation a damnable work of self righteousness. The boast is in the fact that the power of salvation is contained in the gospel itself. That's why no man can boast...not even in his believing.

TruthTalk · Oct 6, 2017

PHart said:

"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification," 1Thessalonians4:3

Really Phart, 'God does it all, you don't do anything to be saved' doctrines.'

Our sanctification is a life long pursuit of holiness and service to our Loving Father; the only "strange doctrines," (your words), are the ones that you are trying promote. False doctrine's, false gospel = false salvation. And who is Phart to tell the Church that they are wrong, did God make you the judge over the Church, "The Body of Christ."

You must have missed the class on our; "Sanctification."

TruthTalk · Oct 6, 2017

PHart said:

So according to your "keep believing", to be saved false doctrine, a believer could potentially lose their eternal salvation 10 times in one day, if they stopped believing 10 times in one day. And to what degree does our unbelief have to be.

Can we lose our eternal salvation by not believing just a little bit; or does it have to be like the unbelief of doubting Thomas. And who say's that God will alway's be doing our believing, other than you, nobody, why because this is just more twisting and misinterpreting the bible to suit your counterfeit Christ.

And whom is it that is able to, "present us before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy," "God is able" - not your foolish "if I stop believing I will lose my eternal salvation." Your fake gospel has no good news only gloom and doom for anyone who buys into your fake Christ, for according to you there is no security of the believer and your god is to weak to keep his children saved and sealed for the day of our redemption.

"To Him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy." Jude1:24

True Gospel

TruthTalk · Oct 6, 2017

SovereignGrace said:

Looks like there's a big headache comin' his, (your), way.

PeterJens · Oct 6, 2017

Deacon_D said:

So you think God made man to be kept alive in hell forever, because a mortal failed life deserves
eternal life with torture? Now seeing people suffer a slow death, with pain and suffering, I personally
just want to end it. For what purpose does eternity suffering have?
Eternal destruction, destruction without the chance of coming back, now that is justice, and ultimately
the removal of those who have simply failed to gain the life given by the King.

What is the opposite of life the goes on forever? Death, the end of life itself and non-existance.

The problem with evil is not the desire for revenge, but how evil serves no purpose but to destroy.
It is about removing from someone else the possibility of enjoyment, if I cannot have it, you cannot
also. Justice removes the disfunctional from society and puts them in prison so they are isolated and
controlled so the damage they can do is then limited.

Is God more vicious and penal than we are?

The lost ultimately are lost because they have no anchor in Christ, no love and focus upon which
everything holds together. Jesus is the vine, and His life is our life.

Now how you baptise someone and the words around it, do not change the symbolism of dying
to sin and rising to a new life in righteousness.

PeterJens · Oct 6, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Maybe there is something missing here.

Jesus comes and knocks at the door of your house.
You run down, open the door, see it is Christ and slam it in His face.

Somehow this insult to the King of Kings is to be ignored and you as a spiritual,
free living, loving, redeemed being, have an eternal relationship with God where you
worship, love, obey and follow His every word?

But no you are not that person because the fruit would be openning the door and
embracing Christ.

Jesus said if your hand or eye causes you to sin, get rid of it, or you will be destroyed.

Do you grasp this is about eternal relationships, truth, purity, holiness, walking with the
creator?

It is not, it does not matter how sinfully you behave or how badly you muck up, no, it is, do
you really love Him and are you taking it seriously? It sounds to me like a lot of you want
your self emotional castles and expect God to take it all into eternity, as if this is acceptable.

Sorry guys, you never read the label on the tin. You must give up your life, your rights,
your self, and follow Him with no reservations.

Why on earth did you think Jesus takes in evil doers who stay in their mess?

loveme1 · Oct 6, 2017

Peter you have such a gifted way of articulating .. GOD be thanked for the men and women in Christ who patiently share here.

You hear the door run down.. the Messiah is ready to come and make His abode.. you thank Him for coming but not ready to let Him in.. because you lacked belief that He can change you inwardly.. preferring to be dead in your trespasses than believing in the power of GOD being able to lead you on the path of Righteousness... it starts and finishes with belief... no one can deny that the sheep always need their Shepherd to guide, comfort and strengthen them to the narrow gate to which He is the Keeper of.

loveme1 · Oct 6, 2017

1 Thessalonians 4

3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

abstain.. is a verb.. which is a doing as in restrain oneself....

PHart · Oct 6, 2017

TruthTalk said:

Lol, no.
You only get one chance to abandon faith and trust in the blood of Christ. You are not allowed to come back to repentance once he turns you over to your willingly, stubborn, contemptuous return to the world in unbelief. The key here being 'unbelief', not simply struggling with sin within one's faith and trust in Christ.

TruthTalk said:

To the point you no longer care about and seek the forgiveness of God. And you have refused all efforts by God to bring you back, and he has forever turned you over to your unbelief without remedy.

TruthTalk said:

Doubt is not unbelief. No longer trusting in, or caring about the forgiveness of God in Christ is unbelief.

TruthTalk said:

EG says that. But don't be surprised if he does a flip flop and tries to make it sound like he wasn't trying to say that. We'll see. Not sure, but dcon might believe that too. He hasn't made that clear.

TruthTalk said:

Of course he's able. THAT'S WHY WE ARE TO CONTINUE TO BELIEVE AND TRUST IN HIM TO DO THAT. You do not have the benefit of anything that you do not believe in. THat's why we are exhorted to keep believing.

TruthTalk said:

I know your Calvinist beliefs keep you from thinking that a believer can stop belieiving (because God MADE you a believer) but that does not explain all the exhortations and warnings in the Bible to the believer to keep believing and not give up.

TruthTalk said:

My doctrine is actually MORE secure than yours. In my doctrine the believer is eternally secure as long as he's in Christ through his faith in Christ. In your doctrine you can't know that you're truly saved unless you persevere to the end, showing yourself to be a true believer.

In your doctrine there is always the potential of tomorrow's failure to show that all the believing you did up to then was not real believing at all. And the end of persevering in the faith is not until the Day of Christ, so you can't know that you had real saving faith until you leave this world. And that's supposed to be the ultimate doctrine of security and assurance in Christ? Really? In my doctrine, you are in fact very saved and very secure as long as you are presently believing. If you keep believing, with God's help of course, you have nothing to worry about. That's what real security in Christ is all about.

TruthTalk said:

Amen. That's why we should continue to believe. God is able to deliver those who believe in him through the coming Judgment of fire. If you stop believing you will be burned up in the coming cleansing of fire, not saved through it. So keep believing, folks. Your confidence is well placed. God is able to deliver you to the kingdom safely and surely. Just keep believing in his power to do that.

eternally-gratefull · Oct 6, 2017

PHart said:

Even though he myself and many others have told you numerous times.

One can only conclude you are not listening to anyone, otherwise you would not make these mistakes.

do you do it on purpose?

Not By Works

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