Our Governing Authorities

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newton3003

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2017
437
42
28
#1
InJohn 19:10-11, Pilate, as a representative of the government of Rome,says to Jesus “You will not speak to me? Do you not know that Ihave authority to release you and authority to crucify you?” towhich Jesus answers. “You would have no authority over me at allunless it had been given you from above...” That passage is thebasis to recognize that for we who strive for righteousness, the onlygovernment that we will accept is one that governs out ofrighteousness.


Furthermore,Romans 13:1 says “Let every person be subject to the governingauthorities. For there is no authority except from God, and thosethat exist have been instituted by God.” Similarly, and to thepoint, Daniel 2:21 says, “[God] changes times and seasons; heremoves kings and sets up kings...” To this last passage we haveseen time and time again how governments like that of Rome who hadworshiped other gods have fallen by the wayside while Jews as apeople, and Christians exist to this very day.


Thoseof us who strive for righteousness, therefore, are better served bythose who govern with righteousness in mind. But as with us asindividuals, those who govern cannot pick and choose the things whichmay help to judge them as being righteous, while ignoring the otherthings that count by God toward being righteous. In Matthew 5:18-19Jesus says, “For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth passaway, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all isaccomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of thesecommandments and teaches others to do the same will be called leastin the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them willbe called great in the kingdom of heaven.” In the context of thatpassage, considering those who do not abide by the first and secondgreat commandments of Jesus, we still have a ways to go before allhave seen the true and total Light of the Lord.


So,as 1 Thessalonians 5:21 says to “[T] test everything; hold fastwhat is good”, we should be mindful of who governs us and whetherthose who govern us have total righteousness in mind. A governmentthat governs based on only parts of what may constituterighteousness, is a government that leads us to abide by some of thecommandments referred to by Jesus in Matthew 5:19 is a governmentthat doesn't abide by all of such commandments.


Agovernment, then, that enacts laws against abortion and contraceptionbut does not enact laws which help the poor and needy, and to besure, 1 John 3:17 says, “But if anyone has the world's goods andsees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how doesGod's love abide in him?”, is not a government that governs withrighteousness in mind. A government that enacts laws againstabominations like homosexuality but does not enact laws thatencourages loving your neighbor and the strangers among you as youwould yourself, as provided under Leviticus 19:18 and 19:34respectively, is not a government that governs in righteousness. Isthere anyone here who would assert that we are exempt from Leviticus19:18 and 19:34 because it comes from the old Law, considering italso forms the second great commandment of Jesus which is to loveeachother as we do ourselves?


Agovernment that would stir up trouble and hostility against us isalso a government that doesn't govern in righteousness, and thereforegoverns contrary to passages such as Colossians 3:8 which says,“...you must put them all away: ranger, wrath, malice, slander, andobscene talk from your mouth.”


Thosewho would want the government to govern with anything less than fullrighteousness in mind will suffer the same fate as those they chooseto govern them.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#2
I would recommend you to buy a new keyboard with a working spacer :)
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
#4
InJohn 19:10-11, Pilate, as a representative of the government of Rome,says to Jesus “You will not speak to me? Do you not know that Ihave authority to release you and authority to crucify you?” towhich Jesus answers. “You would have no authority over me at allunless it had been given you from above...” That passage is thebasis to recognize that for we who strive for righteousness, the onlygovernment that we will accept is one that governs out ofrighteousness.


Furthermore,Romans 13:1 says “Let every person be subject to the governingauthorities. For there is no authority except from God, and thosethat exist have been instituted by God.” Similarly, and to thepoint, Daniel 2:21 says, “[God] changes times and seasons; heremoves kings and sets up kings...” To this last passage we haveseen time and time again how governments like that of Rome who hadworshiped other gods have fallen by the wayside while Jews as apeople, and Christians exist to this very day.


Thoseof us who strive for righteousness, therefore, are better served bythose who govern with righteousness in mind. But as with us asindividuals, those who govern cannot pick and choose the things whichmay help to judge them as being righteous, while ignoring the otherthings that count by God toward being righteous. In Matthew 5:18-19Jesus says, “For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth passaway, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all isaccomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of thesecommandments and teaches others to do the same will be called leastin the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them willbe called great in the kingdom of heaven.” In the context of thatpassage, considering those who do not abide by the first and secondgreat commandments of Jesus, we still have a ways to go before allhave seen the true and total Light of the Lord.


So,as 1 Thessalonians 5:21 says to “[T] test everything; hold fastwhat is good”, we should be mindful of who governs us and whetherthose who govern us have total righteousness in mind. A governmentthat governs based on only parts of what may constituterighteousness, is a government that leads us to abide by some of thecommandments referred to by Jesus in Matthew 5:19 is a governmentthat doesn't abide by all of such commandments.


Agovernment, then, that enacts laws against abortion and contraceptionbut does not enact laws which help the poor and needy, and to besure, 1 John 3:17 says, “But if anyone has the world's goods andsees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how doesGod's love abide in him?”, is not a government that governs withrighteousness in mind. A government that enacts laws againstabominations like homosexuality but does not enact laws thatencourages loving your neighbor and the strangers among you as youwould yourself, as provided under Leviticus 19:18 and 19:34respectively, is not a government that governs in righteousness. Isthere anyone here who would assert that we are exempt from Leviticus19:18 and 19:34 because it comes from the old Law, considering italso forms the second great commandment of Jesus which is to loveeachother as we do ourselves?


Agovernment that would stir up trouble and hostility against us isalso a government that doesn't govern in righteousness, and thereforegoverns contrary to passages such as Colossians 3:8 which says,“...you must put them all away: ranger, wrath, malice, slander, andobscene talk from your mouth.”


Thosewho would want the government to govern with anything less than fullrighteousness in mind will suffer the same fate as those they chooseto govern them.


Since Pilate, and the Roman government did not govern out of righteousness and Jesus acknowledges that God had placed them in authority. I suggest that you rethink your position.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,780
13,542
113
#5
what was the government like when Paul wrote Romans 13:1 ?

what specific government was Paul under when by the Spirit he said those things ?

did that government, for example, allow abortion? was it hostile to Christianity? did it embrace paganism? did it care for its poor & needy?

is there a footnote in Romans 13 that says *this only applies when the government is righteous* or *disregard this chapter unless you're in a Christian theocracy* ?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,780
13,542
113
#6
Since Pilate, and the Roman government did not govern out of righteousness and Jesus acknowledges that God had placed them in authority. I suggest that you rethink your position.

He did tell His disciples to listen to and respect the Pharisees, and we all know what He had to say about their righteousness.

((Matthew 23:2-3))
 

newton3003

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2017
437
42
28
#7
[FONT=&quot]>[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Since Pilate, and theRoman government did not govern out of righteousness and Jesus acknowledgesthat God had placed them in authority…[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]***My understanding is that Jesusacknowledged no such thing. When he said “You would have no authority over meat all unless it had been given you from above”, he is telling Pilate thatPilate received no such authority from above, therefore Jesus tells Pilate thatPilate has no authority over him.[/FONT]
 

newton3003

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2017
437
42
28
#8
Since the issue with my space bar has been raised before, let me say that my space bar works just fine. It is this website that groups certain words together. There is no telling which words this website will group.

I have tried in the past to ungroup those words on the edit here, but the website doesn't give me enough time to do so. Hopefully those who read alot will not see those groupings as too much of an inconvenience.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,780
13,542
113
#9
>Since Pilate, and theRoman government did not govern out of righteousness and Jesus acknowledgesthat God had placed them in authority…

***My understanding is that Jesusacknowledged no such thing. When he said “You would have no authority over meat all unless it had been given you from above”, he is telling Pilate thatPilate received no such authority from above, therefore Jesus tells Pilate thatPilate has no authority over him.

it's not as though Pilate's orders were not carried out: this shows us that authority was given to Pilate: what Jesus tells him is that authority came to him from heaven.

no one takes His life from Him - He lays it down of His own accord. Christ is telling Pilate that He - God enfleshed - is not subject to Him, but has subjected Himself to him by His own will, the same will which appointed Pilate to authority over men in the first place.

He tells him, "
you would have no such authority unless it was given to you" -- He does not say 'you do not have any such authority because no such authority has been given to you'

He speaks to the origin of Pilate's authority, not the existence of it.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,780
13,542
113
#10
Since the issue with my space bar has been raised before, let me say that my space bar works just fine. It is this website that groups certain words together. There is no telling which words this website will group.

I have tried in the past to ungroup those words on the edit here, but the website doesn't give me enough time to do so. Hopefully those who read alot will not see those groupings as too much of an inconvenience.

yeah looks like what happens when you copy/paste into the forum. whenever i copy/paste from certain online Bibles i get the same thing: sometimes some '
spaces' aren't recognized by the text editor or aren't picked up by the 'copy' command.

recommend using "
go advanced" button and "preview post" -- you can take as long as you want to edit and preview as many times as you want before you finally post.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
685
113
#11
Google Chrome causes issues with typing I find - I use Firefox instead.
 

newton3003

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2017
437
42
28
#12
>He tells him,"you would have no such authority unless it was given to you"-- He does not say 'you do not have any such authority because nosuch authority has been given to you'


He speaks to the origin of Pilate's authority, not the existence of it.


***Why would God give someone the authority to rule contrary to what God expects from us? I know, Proverbs 3:5, but God also says in Isaiah 1:18 to “Let us reason together.”


Why would WE allow someone who doesn't strive for righteousness, to govern us?
 
Last edited:

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
63
#13
In John 19:10-11, Pilate, as a representative of the government of Rome,says to Jesus “You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?” to which Jesus answers. “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above...” That passage is the basis to recognize that for we who strive for righteousness, the only government that we will accept is one that governs out of righteousness.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

It is written that He that is of God heareth God's words so what do you hear when you hear that all men are created equal?

If you believe that in the beginning God created man and woman then does all men being created equal mean that are they all born of a male and female?








 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
2,270
369
83
#14
We are to obey the laws of the land unless they go against God’s laws (in the New Testament). We are to vote for the most righteous, but it is not always God’s will to put a righteous person in office. God willed Pharoah to be in such position, at such time, foreknowing the choices he would make, because it was His will to part the sea through Moses.

Yes, the Old Testament will always be with us, but that does not mean we are under its laws. We need the physical examples in the Old Testament in order to understand it’s spiritual meaning in the New Testament- like how Noah being saved through water represents baptism, or how the layout of the tabernacle represents the layout of the spiritual realm. But God’s laws are no longer obeyed physically like they were under Moses, they are obeyed spiritually unders Christ. So it’s not God’s law that changed, just the way we obey it- the physical way was nailed to the cross forevermore.

Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control- there is no law against these such things. There will be no law in your land that says “It is hereby not permitted to love people or to be patient with them. Furthermore, you are not to exercise self-control.” These things will always be.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,780
13,542
113
#15
***Why would God give someone the authority to rule contrary to what God expects from us? I know, Proverbs 3:5, but God also says in Isaiah 1:18 to “Let us reason together.”


Why would WE allow someone who doesn't strive for righteousness, to govern us?
why did Elijah never seek to depose Ahab? even knowing that there were 7,000 men God had reserved, who he could have called up?

why did David refrain from slaying Saul when his life was in his hands?

why did Michael dare not speak even a word against Satan?

why did Paul apologize when he realized he had disrespected the high priest, who had him bound and arrested for preaching Christ?

why did Paul - at the time when Nero was emperor - command by the Spirit that believers respect the authorities set in place, and state plainly that they were set in place by God?


is Trump/Obama/Bush/whoever more heinous than Nero, so that we would be righteous to disrespect them, reject their authority and disregard what the scripture says? are they more wicked than Ahab? are they more evil than Satan himself?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,780
13,542
113
#16
i am certainly encouraged to hear that should God ever become overwhelmed & lose control of the situation, there are pious, wise men out there ready to set the universe back in order, as a last line of defense. my mind set at ease, *whew* i had always kinda worried that God had bitten off more than He could chew . . .

a republican finally in office again, awesome - great to see that the Almighty can count on humanity to fix things when He fails.


:p
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,780
13,542
113
#17
Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control- there is no law against these such things. There will be no law in your land that says “It is hereby not permitted to love people or to be patient with them. Furthermore, you are not to exercise self-control.” These things will always be.
amen, and He also said "the poor you will always have with you" -- doesn't that imply that there will always be sloth & greed & injustice, and unrighteous people in authority controlling resources and power? until Shiloh come, may He come soon
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,137
216
63
#19
To live by Faith and worship GOD in Spirit and Truth.. Love First and always.

I always like to consider Daniel and the others of that time... anything contrary to GOD's Law is to be refused.. and my word is this world not harder to abide in each and every day.. only the Power of GOD through Faith in His Son can you be kept from the darkness.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,423
6,702
113
#20
When Paul realized he had back talked the High Priest, he immediately apologized for breaking the law of Moses by being insolent.

Now it was obvious he was in the hands of someone in authority, for he was in cahrge and had taken Paul prisoner.

What does this say? It says teh laaw regarding being reverent of those in authority is only in reference to the structure that was Israel, and those in authority were the priesthood.

It is clear the law was only in regards to the priesthood leadership of Israel, not to other kings, governors and the like. If that is is not obvious enough for anyone here, then look at the record of politicians and leaders today, disrespectful of all peoples and not winning converts by their love......show me one...

No one who believes Jesus christ is God and Savior can possibly put himself at the service of any political leader in spirit and truth towards God.

That teaching about those inauthority is only in the authority that is ours....God.

If common sense does not dictate all of this is true, then ask God, and when the Holy Spirit tells you we must obey that law as regarding world political leaders , I will tell you your understanding is amiss along with the spirit with which you are in contact.

Worship Jesus Christ and always hear Him before anyone else......even me...Listen for Jesus.